Jimmy Deenihan
Question:9 Mr. Deenihan asked the Taoiseach if he intends to involve the National Youth Council of Ireland in discussions on the Programme for National Recovery Phase II.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Programme for National Recovery.
Joe Sherlock
Question:10 Mr. Sherlock asked the Taoiseach if he has received a request from the United Farmers Association for their inclusion in the discussions between the Government and different interest groups on a possible replacement for the Programme for National Recovery; if it is intended to agree to the request; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 10 together.
Arrangements have been made to involve the National Youth Council of Ireland and the United Farmers Association in discussions on a programe for economic and social development to succeed the Programme for National Recovery.
The National Youth Council of Ireland have already made a submission on the scope and content of a new programme. Discussions have taken place on this submission between representatives of the council and of the relevent Government Departments. Further discussions have been arranged.
The United Farmers Association have been invited to make a submission on the scope and content of a new programme. When they do so, it will be fully considered by the relevant Departments and discussed by them with the association.
In view of the fact that the National Youth Council are involved at departmental level at the moment, will they be included in the Central Review Committee when they sit around the table? Will there be a representative there of the National Youth Council? Will they be recognised as full social partners? Will they be signatories to any future programme that is agreed?
At the moment, no.
At the moment, no?
The Deputy will understand that this exercise is very delicately and sensitively balanced. There are social partners already who have settled a formula that worked the last time. I would not like to undertake any disruption of that balance at the moment. It was a success the last time and I think we should continue with it. However, that does not prevent the National Youth Council or any similar vocational education organisation from having a full input into the programme. That I can guarantee.
In view of the fact that the United Farmers Association is a new rural organisation founded in Ireland this year as a representative and negotiating body specifically for small and medium farmers, would the Taoiseach not agree that it would be right and proper that, besides making a submission, the body would have a place at the negotiating table?
The same argument I used to Deputy Deenihan would apply. We already have farmers represented through the IFA, the ICMSA, ICOS — the co-operative side — and Macra na Feirme. That balance is there and has worked successfully. I would be reluctant to disturb it, but the United Farmers Association understand a submission from them would be very welcome and would be fully considered and discussed with them.
The United Farmers Association represent that section of the farming community who contend that they are not represented by the ICMSA or IFA, because if they were, the association would not be in existence. Will the Taoiseach reconsider this matter and perhaps give them the place they deserve at the negotiating table?
I could not give that guarantee.
In relation to the role of the National Youth Council in any future programme that might be negotiated, having regard to the high levels of emigration particularly among young people that has taken place during the duration of the current programme, will the Taoiseach not agree that there is a need to have a representative of young people on any executive committee, such as the CRC, that may emerge after the programme? Will he not take on board the request for such participation that has already been put on the table by the NYC in this matter?
The Deputy will understand it is not entirely a matter for me. The news on the emigration front is good. It is quite clear from the figures that emigration is falling very rapidly. I make that point only by the way.
(Interruptions.)
Let us hear the Taoiseach.
Our young people are already very adequately represented in the existing mix through their trade unions, Macra na Feirme in the case of the farmers, or through the employers. While we would value a major input from the NYC into the programme and discussions, it is not necessary to provide for specific representation at the council table. The Deputy should realise that it is difficult enough to get these different sections of our society, all the social partners, around the table and to maintain a reasonable balance of representation without bringing in new vocational education groups. I am quite certain that if the NYC were to be given representation many others would also seek it.
A Cheann Comhairle——
We must have finality on this question. Brevity please, Deputy.
Will the Taoiseach not agree that the current Programme for National Recovery has not extended its benefits to certain sections of the community, particularly those forced to emigrate in much larger numbers over the last three years than previously? Will he not recognise that he ignores at his peril the possibility of accommodating in some substantial way an ongoing role for the NYC representative at whatever executive review committee emerges, as is hoped, from these discussions?
The Deputy is a trade unionist.
Yes.
He knows very well the problems involved in representation at this sort of conference. I do not dictate——
But the Taoiseach can recommend.
——the parties to be represented. Agreement has been reached among all the social partners on the present format. I urge the Deputies making the case here to accept that. It worked successfully previously and I have no reason to believe it will not work successfully again, but I would be genuinely apprehensive of disturbing the existing balance.
I suggest that the Taoiseach is being very badly advised by the Minister for Agriculture and Food in this matter——
This is Question Time, Deputy Garland.
Will the Taoiseach not agree that this is an opportunity to set at rest the widespread feeling that the IFA influence the Government far too much and that there is an opportunity to let a genuine organisation of small farmers — representing more than 10,000 people — have a voice in Irish agriculture?
They will have a voice but I am sure the distinguished president of the IFA would be interested to hear that he has undue influence with this Government.
Are we to take it from the Taoiseach's reply that the other social partners actually object to the inclusion of the National Youth Council membership in this programme? Is that what we are to infer from the Taoiseach's reply?
The Deputy must not infer anything of that sort. The Deputy can take it that what I am saying to the House is that the composition of the mechanism to produce a programme was carefully worked out between all the social partners concerned. It is a formula that works. It is regarded as adequately representational and neither I nor any of the parties would be willing to upset a successful working formula at this stage.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that the interests of young people, the majority of whom are not yet in full-time employment, are clearly divergent from the interests of those who have employment and are represented by trade unions and that therefore the decision, for example, to appoint a representative of young people to NESC in 1983, despite objections from the other social partners, is fully justified and that that precedent should now be followed?
I again repeat that this is a difficult, complicated exercise. Deputies should be wishing the exercise well——
We do.
——hoping that the delicate balance that has been there and that has produced results can be preserved, rather than trying to complicate it as this stage. Of course, young people must be heard in the context of the programme. I answer the complaints in that regard in two ways: first of all, young people are represented in their trade unions; young people are represented in Macra; young people are represented in the employers' organisations; second, the National Youth Council submission will be fully and adequately considered and discussed with the National Youth Council if necessary.
Young people not yet in employment are not represented by any of these bodies. The Taoiseach has not replied to that.