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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Feb 1991

Vol. 404 No. 8

Financial Resolutions 1991. - Financial Resolution No. 6: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
THAT it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(The Taoiseach)

I am grateful for this opportunity to speak on the budget. I understand that most of what anybody could say about it has already been said. I am taking this opportunity to refer to the problems of An Post. I tried to get in on the Private Notice Question but was unable to do so. I want a message to be delivered, loud and clear, to the management of An Post. Whatever way they balance their books — and I assume it has to be done for economic reasons — I do not expect rural Ireland to be asked to carry the can in an uneven and unfair way. The services at present available to elderly people in remote areas must continue to be made available, although perhaps in a different context. Let nobody go away with the idea that a green postbox positioned at the head of any townland or village road will suffice as a service in rural Ireland. There is no reason any person should have to travel two or three miles to find out if somebody has written to him, and that is what is proposed. I hope this gets back to the chairman of An Post.

I was listening to the Taoiseach today indulging himself and praising himself to the high heavens in relation to the budget. He seemed to be extremely pleased with it. Whatever problems we had the day before the budget we still have them a week later. The economic outlook is not rosy. Growth in the economy is slowing down and there are no real signs that interest rates will decrease. Why are interest rates so high when our inflation rate is so low? High interest rates hugely diminish our competitive position in the market and new projects are particularly vulnerable.

In his euphoria in informing the world of progress to date, the Minister for Finance last week did not significantly draw attention to the fact that we still owe just over £25 billion and the budget has increased that figure. Unemployment figures are rising rapidly. The sharp rise of over 8,000 persons signing at employment exchanges last month is likely to continue, particularly over the next few months. Departments of Social Welfare and Labour officials around the country tell me that out of every ten persons being interviewed for a place on a FÁS training scheme or unemployment assistance, at least four or five had been in the United Kingdom or other countries before Christmas and did not go back. The news coming from the building sites in the United States and the United Kingdom is equally depressing, with very little work this month and no great sign of any lift-off in the building industry for this year. Figures from regional airports around the country confirm the assertion that many of our emigrants have returned. Many passengers purchased a one-way homeward-bound ticket this Christmas. There is a grave under-estimation in the social welfare provision for 1991 and nobody will be surprised if a hefty Supplementary Estimate is introduced later this year.

The aspirations in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, an inter-grated approach, planned development of the economy, industrial peace and input by the social partners are all laudable objectives. However, three major groupings — the unemployed, low-paid workers and farmers — came out very poorly from the negotiations on the programme. The budget highlighted this fact. A point which seems to have been missed is that between the date of publication of the Estimates and before the budget was announced there was a reduction in the subhead for FÁS training schemes in the Department of Labour Estimate. This reduction amounted to £3 million. I consider this to be most unusual and regrettable. I am informed by officials in FÁS and the Department of Labour that because of this cutback there will be fewer places for FÁS participants this year than last year. I have always been an advocate of the concept of the social employment scheme, which was started some years ago by the then Coalition Government and continued by this Government. To have a job on a week-on week-off basis is the nearest thing many people will get to work in the strict sense, especialy for a person who may not have been working for perhaps eight or ten years. I am baffled at a time when we talk about job creation that this should have happened.

The other area in which there was supposed to be job creation potential was the integrated rural development sector; so we were told by the Minister for Agriculture and Food. The Estimate provided for £11 million as opposed to £1 million last year, but that Estimate was raided a few days before the budget and £5 million was taken out. I know that Governments do not really create jobs, they create the environment for others to create jobs, but the area within the direct remit of the Government seems to have been raided. I hope that the unemployed and the low-paid will understand what is happening. The poor and the underprivileged will always be at the bottom of the pile, irrespective of what Government are in office.

Quoting figures from the total social welfare budget can hide great human suffering. The short term unemployed have a weekly income of £45. Any person who has to live for a week on that sum is not in a great position and those seven days must be very long. I know some people who would have no difficulty in paying £45 for one meal. A married couple with three children in receipt of supplementary welfare allowance get £109 per week. It would be very difficult for that family to become excited about this budget or the previous budget. There are no credits, no hidden extras, no opportunities to indulge in spending sprees or play the stock market when a family of five have to live on £105 per week. The relative well being of the economy, the competitiveness of industry, the effects of GATT on agriculture, educational opportunities and the debate on Irish neutrality all seem a pale shade of yellow when you have little money and less hope. Human nature and sheer economics will dictate that the unemployed and the poor will be at the bottom of the pile.

There are many more people at work than on the dole and we must make progress in that direction. However, workers are over-taxed and the budget did absolutely nothing to reform the tax system, a matter which has been debated at length. Many workers at all levels ruefully look at the tax deductions from their pay packets and they genuinely believe that they are carrying social welfare recipients on their backs. This is the general perception. I have to accept that there are some dole spongers, people who play the system, some recipients draw the dole and work at the same time. I have heard the Minister for Social Welfare criticise rogue employers who do not make their PRSI contributions. However, I understand amending legislation is to be introduced. All these factors make unnecessary demands on social welfare funding. There is always a need to clamp down on those individuals to ensure that deserving cases are targeted properly.

Taxpayers bitterly complain about their tax deductions but this is a relative matter. The man who believed he could not be poorer when he did not have shoes to wear changed his mind when he saw a man without legs. So-called Christian societies must make adequate provision for the very young, the unemployed, the low-paid, the deserted, the handicapped and the elderly. The emphasis the Government put on their caring responsibilities is sometimes a mirror image of the attitude a nation has to those dependent on social welfare. A family on long term social welfare finds it difficult to see this caring approach by the Government or by vast numbers of the population. The Government are quick to state that their contribution to the less well off keeps pace with inflation or surpasses it. This is a relative judgment also. A 4 per cent increase on a salary of £20,000 is £800, while a 4 per cent increase on a social welfare payment of £52 is just over £100 a year.

The effort by the Minister for Social Welfare to help the carers of the elderly is nothing short of pathetic. There were problems with the prescribed relative's allowance, the forerunner of the carer's allowance. Of course the decision to pay the carer direct was a good one. What was not good was the impression given by the Minister that all people caring for the aged could expect to get financial assistance. Let me outline to the House those who will not get such assistance — a carer with more than £2 a week income and spouses who have a joint income which is above £90. There are some slight changes in the budget but those are the basic figures. This scheme is a farce and the few changes made in the budget will do little to extend the scheme to deserving cases. Just imagine the chaos that would arise if even a small fraction of the elderly now looked after at home were placed in health board geriatric homes around the country. Besides the fact that each bed costs £300 or more per week there are just no spaces available. However, people, particularly women, who dedicate their lives or give their already over-burdened time to looking after the elderly, are now snubbed by the constraints of the carer allowance eligibility rules.

The glib answer to such families is that the services of the district nurse or home help are there. That is not good enough. We had a bit of that at Question Time on health today. It appears that the health boards are so strapped for money and place such low mileage barriers on the travel of district nurses that this service is greatly curtailed. It is the same with the home help. The services are excellent but the home help is only around for a very short period. It is no harm to dwell for a short moment in this House on all the other hours, the 23 hours per day, the seven days per week, 52 weeks a year that the carers of elderly and sick people have to put in. Because of the love and affection they have for family members they are prepared to go to the ends of the earth, to deny themselves everything to ensure that the people in their care are well looked after.

I know it is a competition for available funds. There is no point in my coming in here today and saying that every single person in the country who looks after their aged parents should be paid to do so. I am not suggesting that at all, but there is huge leeway to be made up on this. It will be very important in the next year to have a new set of guidelines so that if people find themselves in a position that is beyond them the State is prepared to lend a helping hand, and that it is not a handout but hand up. It would cost £300 or £400 of the State's money to keep a person in a geriatric home. There seems nothing wrong with ensuring that most people would get at least £48 or £50 to look after them at home. It makes reasonable sense.

The family income supplement is a concept everybody likes. I believe it is an important concept in that it is there to help people on low wages. I have not time to go into the anomalies that even the latest increases in the budget have produced but it is something we will go into when the Social Welfare Bill comes into the House.

There are a few other things that this House and the Government will have to look into very carefully because of changing times in rural Ireland. If the MacSharry proposals get through, and even if they do not, with the downturn in world prices we will hear a lot more about rural poverty. At the moment there are about 14,000 smallholders drawing unemployment assistance. Unfortunately the figures from all the agencies in the agricultural arena suggest that that number will double if not treble inside the next few years.

This brings me to an important point about the family income supplement. As I said, I like the concept of it but it will obviously have to be honed so that it can help genuine cases of families caught in the poverty trap. What I cannot understand is why people who are self employed, who run into hard times and have no trouble in convincing the Revenue Commissioners that they have almost no income to live on — I am talking about the self employed and small farmers — should not be entitled to the family income supplement just as is any other low paid worker. It is something that will have to be looked at. We may believe in the oft quoted concept of keeping the greatest number of farming families in rural Ireland on the land but obviously they will not stay there in dire poverty.

The Minister said that £1 million was being made available specifically for low income farmers. Despite my best efforts over the last week I cannot get anybody to tell me where that will come from, who it will be paid to and under what criteria it will be distributed. Anyhow, at £1 million, it must be very restrictive.

In the few moments at my disposal I want to refer briefly to the agricultural scene. Obviously the Minister for Agriculture has lost his bearings altogether because in a most embarrassing outburst last week, he had to accept that the decrease in farm incomes last year was not as he said, 6 per cent or 7 per cent, but more like 15 per cent. I would have thought it was 20 per cent; there are many farmers who certainly had their income reduced by at least 25 per cent. There was nothing in the budget to help them and, worse, the influence we used to have in Brussels in agricultural matters seems to have scattered to the four corners of the earth. Now we are told what will happen and can only react to it.

Finally, all I can say is God help the 40,000 or 50,000 Irish farmers if there is no more help for them than what we have seen on the Floor of this House on budget day. I fully understand that budget day in Ireland may not have all the answers for the farming community because of the Brussels extension but, believe me, there are many people who are genuinely concerned at the lack of consideration, sympathy and, above all else, a plan of action to try to overcome the horrendous problems besetting agriculture at the moment.

I am glad to know that the Chair's wrong steer did not put you into any wobble.

It never does.

I am very pleased to be able to speak in the budget debate today. We all try to combine our economic forecasts and thoughts on issues for which we are responsible. The Irish economy has gone from a state of virtual collapse in 1987 to a situation where the growth over the last two years was about 10 per cent, among the best in Europe, and that figure is outstanding viewed from any standpoint. The annual inflation up to November 1990 was 2.7 per cent, the second lowest in the EC. In 1990 there were 22,000 more in employment than there were in 1989. All of these achievements have come about not by chance but as a result of the Government's sound economic and fiscal policies. What we are planning is a sustainable path which will lead to greater improvements and full economic stability. The real indication of the success of those policies is that the Exchequer borrowing requirement fell to 2 per cent of GNP compared with 13.6 per cent of GNP in 1986. That is an amazing précis of how far we have come in the last few years.

At the same time as creating a climate for economic growth and development the Government with the consensus of the social partners, initiated major programmes of social reform — in the taxation system, in health, in social welfare and in education. Progress has been made in all of these areas with a view to removing inequities in society.

This Government clearly recognise that the education sector plays a vital role in modern society, indeed, education holds the key to our success as a nation. On it depends the future of our young people and the quality of life in our society.

Indeed the potential contribution which education can make to the economic, technological, social and cultural development of a country cannot be over-estimated. It prepares young people for their future roles as responsible citizens as well as producing qualified and skilled personnel to meet the demands of the labour market.

The Programme for Economic and Social Progress agreed recently by the Government with the social partners stresses the key role the education sector play in this country's economic and social progress. It spells out in clear, unambiguous terms the overall strategy for education, namely, to provide the opportunity for all to develop their educational potential to the full, to learn how to live as fully as possible. In Ireland we have always shown a great regard for individuality and respect for freedom of expression and choice. All persons should have the opportunity to prepare themselves to the best of their abilities to make a living and to have a choice of vocation. We need to develop our human resources as fully as possible. We need to develop and cultivate the potential talents and aptitudes of all our people.

For continued economic growth we will have to depend more than ever and more than on any other factor, on the development of the knowledge and skills of our own folk. A well educated and skilled workforce is essential for new areas of growth such as the financial services sector, which is growing apace, micro-electronics, information technology, mariculture, food processing, horticulture and tourism, all of the areas to which the Government have directed special attention and resources because of their potential for growth and development.

In Ireland we have a good education and training infrastructure. Going back over various Governments across the party lines there has always been, thankfully, an emphasis on education. We want to build on this infrastructure to develop and improve the quality of our education. We want to encourage all our young people to fully avail of the opportunities to develop their innate abilities.

This budget provides a gross allocation of £1,416 million for the education group of votes. It is the largest allocation for education services ever made in any of our budgets. It is a formidable figure, let me repeat it again, £1,416 million. It clearly indicates the importance this Government attach to maintaining and improving the level and quality of education. The resources now being committed will enable us to respond to the current needs and to adapt and reform to meet the challenges which exist.

The new Programme for Economic and Social Progress outlines the strategy for education and provides an opportunity for agreeing on educational policy to the end of the century. As we know, the programme is based on a strategy for a decade and thus involves the planning process which is particularly suited to education. The overall education sector is addressed comprehensively in the same programme. It confirms that the overall strategy in education — to provide the opportunity for all to develop their educational potential to the full — will be achieved by having a broad based education for all, by encouraging pupils to continue in full time second level education for as long as they can, by providing post-secondary education for all, by intensifying efforts to cater for those with difficulties and under achievers, by providing second chance education and facilitating mature students to upgrade their knowledge and skills.

Particular attention in the programme is given to the socially and educationally disadvantaged. This recognises that, despite the egalitarian nature of our education a system with its existing schemes to assist the disadvantaged, there are still young people who are suffering from being educationally and — or socially disadvantaged. Priority must be given to them. We must target them especially. I am very pleased to say that within the past three years and particularly in the future the main thrust of the development in education will be for those who for one reason or another have missed out at any level and now require special attention. It is a hallmark of our maturity as a country that we clearly recognise this and that we want to direct in a very focused way our resources on education.

There must be early identification of children suffering educational or social disadvantages. There must be definite measures taken to support them through guidance and counselling, remedial teaching and the development of home and school links. Those with disabilities should have full access to learning opportunities that develop their talents and broaden social participation.

For early school-leavers who have left the education system with perhaps no attainments we will put measures in place also.

In the area of curriculum planning and reform, I will be giving the new National Council for Curriculum and assessment under its new chairman, Dr. Tom Murphy, the task of revising the primary curriculum and of continuing the updating of the junior and senior cycle programmes. I am sure the House will join with me in expressing our appreciation to Dr. Tom Murphy, a distinguished educationalist, for the work he did on the Primary Education Review Body. It is recognised now as the bible for primary education. I will be circulating it to all Members of the House together with my plan for the implementation of it. The Government are pleased that Dr. Tom Murphy has agreed to act as Chairman of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment and I will take this opportunity to pay tribute to Dr. Edward Walsh, the previous chairman of that board.

The issues and measures outlined in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress require careful planning for their successful development and implementation. The primary and post primary policy units established in my Department have been given specific responsibilities for formulating, developing and co-ordinating the strategies and creating the conditions necessary for their implementation. Through the special measures in this year's budget I will be able to initiate action for the disadvantaged in a number of specific areas.

In primary education emphasis will be placed on developing a number of ongoing initiatives and will focus particulary on the improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio. It will be reduced to 25:1 in primary schools by September 1992 by retaining all of the existing posts, which is innovative, particularly in the light of demographic changes, and by creating 250 new posts in 1991 followed by further posts in 1992. The lower pupil-teacher ratio will have as its objective the reduction of overly large classes while expanding the focus on all aspects of the disadvantaged in urban and rural schools. It will attempt to look at the issue of remedial teaching, the requirements in special schools and initiatives related to the integration of children with handicaps in ordinary schools where appropriate. There will be increased funding for the scheme for aid for school books in primary schools. In the past this scheme provided financial assistance towards the purchase of school books for certain pupils in first to sixth class. This year, for the first time I am extending the scheme to provide assistance to necessitous pupils in infant classes and increasing the funding overall by 25 per cent. We are developing special programmes and measures to assist schools in disadvantaged areas and I hope to strengthen my initiative of last year, the home-school liaison scheme. This scheme was greatly expanded last year by the provision of a special fund and we will continue with this again this year.

At this point I wish to refer to the allegations concerning the pupil-teacher ratio made in this House on Tuesday evening, 5 February by the Leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Dick Spring. In the school year 1986-87 when Deputy Spring was the Tánaiste in the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition, the pupil teacher ratio was 26.7:1 at primary level. This point may seem academic and minute, and I am quite aware of that, but it was a clear untruth and I want to put on record that Deputy Spring said that inter-alia, even with the improvements coming in in September, the pupil-teacher ratio would be higher than when Labour and Fine Gael were in Government. Not alone will it be much lower but right now it is lower than when he presided as Tánaiste in that Government. So often people think one should let remarks like that go without comment. It is necessary, when the Deputy made such a dogmatic statement that I refute it. In refuting it and giving the figures, I should like to say to Deputy Spring — lest he accuse me again of sleight of hand — that he is welcome to my Department, to my Secretary and to my files in terms of any knowledge he may wish to gain from any section of the Department where he can verify the facts. This year before any of the improvements come into effect, the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools is 26.5:1. That is lower than the figure which obtained when the Deputy was in office for four years, and this figure will be even further improved to 25:1 following the programme reductions which were announced.

In the post-primary sector the facts are as follows. In 1986-87 the pupil-teacher ratio was 17.07:1. Following the implementation of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress this figure will be 16.6:1. It is necessary that I make those facts clear. The House will note that the position outlined by Deputy Spring is not true; it is a fabrication; it is waffle.

In post-primary education, action will be initiated in 1991 in relation to the pupil-teacher ratio and many other factors. The book library fund is being increased for necessitous students by 10 per cent to £2.6 million and over one-third of all second level pupils will benefit. Design and implementation of strategies and interventions aimed at improving the retention rates of pupils from disadvantaged areas will be initiated. I have created a special fund to finance research efforts, special targeting of areas, schools and pupils, home school linkages and linkages between targeted schools and third level institutions. The Youthreach scheme and the vocational preparation and training programmes will be monitored, evaluated and further developed in 1991. A national system of certification and assessment for these and other vocational training programmes will be introduced and I have allocated funds for its development.

In recent years there have been significant increases in the number of students entering third level education. About £300 million, or 21 per cent of our budget, goes on higher education. Major developments are provided for in that area in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.

The number of third level places will be increased under a programme approved by Government in 1990, in the period 1990-93. Funding is provided to generate a number of extra places. I will be introducing amending legislation to provide for the merging of Thomond College with the University of Limerick. This is a happy merger and is a great step forward in our educational thinking and how we approach matters. This and the utilisation of spare capacity in the colleges of education for primary teachers through linkages with the universities will provide 1,500 places. The Tallaght Regional College is progressing very satisfactorily under the national development plan.

We are also looking at the higher education grant scheme. Last year I removed the anomaly relating to the number of honours, and the benefits that have been recommended and much appreciated. We hope to have more equitable income assessment criteria, to increase income eligibility limits for families with more than one child attending third level courses, to assess the income eligibility for mature students, and to regard mature students who satisfy the income eligibility criteria as qualifying for grants provided they obtain places on approved courses.

I am sure the House, across party lines, agrees that education is central to all of us but, in particular, to this Government's plan for the future. This budget and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress give ample expression of this objective and I commend the endorsement of both to the country at large.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá an-áthas orm go bhfuilim anseo don dara bhliain chun labhairt ar an cháinaisnéis seo. Tá súil agam go mbeidh mé ar ais an bhliain seo chugainn freisin agus go mbeidh mé ar an taobh eile den Teach. Tá an seans sin ann, mar sílim go bhfuil a lán PR sa Rialtas seo. Bhí mé ag féachaint ar chlár Fhianna Fáil ar an teilifís cúpla óiche ó shin agus dúirt an tAire Airgeadais gur ísligh sé an ráta VAT agus tá sin fíor; ach rinne sé dearmad a rá gur ardaigh sé rátaí VAT chomh maith. Dúirt Aire eile gur thug siad ardú pá i bhfad níos mó ná an foilsciú do na daoine ar phinsean agus mar sin.

Cad a dúirt sí?

(Carlow-Kilkenny): B'fhéidir nach raibh mé ag éisteacht i gceart is b'fhéidir go raibh sí ag caint faoi rudaí nach raibh suim agam iontu. Pé scéal é, dúirt sé gur thug siad ardú pá i bhfad níos mó ná an foilsciú. Thug siad 4 faoin gcéad agus tá an foilsciú beagnach 3 faoin gcéad, ach tá ardú sa VAT, agus dá bhrí sin, ní dóigh liom, i ndáiríre, go bhfuil aon ardú faighte ag an daoine a fuair 4 faoin gcéad. In ainneoin sin, bhí sé le cloisteáil ar an dteilifís go raibh ardú i bhfad níos mó ná an foilsciú —“away beyond inflation”, a shílim go ndúirt an tAire úd. Sin an fáth go ndeirim go bhfiul Rialtas ann len a lán PR inniu. Fiú amháin, dúirt an tAire go raibh i bhfad níos mó airgid faoi chúram na Roinne i mbliana ná mar a bhí riamh. Dúirt an tAire Sláinte ar rud céanna tráthnóna inniu.

There has to be a stop somewhere. If we go back to 1740 when this House was built people were paid £3 a year for working very hard on this House and the real experts got £13 per year. If we go back far enough we can have thousands and thousands of a percentage increase in every Department. There is such a thing as an increase in salaries each year and there is also inflation each year. If we did not have a larger increase next year than we had this year, we would automatically have a serious cutback. When I hear Ministers telling us that their Department have more money this year than ever before and there was never as much money spent, it means nothing. It is another form of public relations, and, as I said as Gaeilge, this Government are getting away with absolute murder when it comes to PR.

The other two Ministers told us how well off they were, and how one had amnesia and forgot to mention that if he did lower inflation in one area he increased it in the other. This sounds extremely well, and I am sure Ministers are happy to announce it on television but, as I said to the Taoiseach one day, despite the polls, which he now believes because they suit Fianna Fáil, at ground level that is not the feeling.

I am looking forward to the local elections. It would be real cowardice not to hold them; I presume the party would not accept that type of accusation.

The Minister for Education who has just left the House dealt with Education, a sector in which I am interested. I genuinely welcome the promise to increase the number of teachers. I believe this promise will be kept by the Government. Since I became a Member of this House I have continually made the point that the present pupil-teacher ratio does not give children a chance. I am sure I cannot name names in the House but I want to refer to a morning radio show which is hosted by a very well known personality. He has often said that he tries to keep discussions on a level playing pitch. I accept that statement. Yet I have heard some of the comments he has made about teaching. I do not deny that there are bad teachers, just as there are bad TDs, bad stenographers, bad advisers and bad reporters.

Someone wrote into this radio programme asking why parents do not get together to do something about teachers. I believe the vast majority of parents are happy with the teachers who are teaching their children but it is regrettable when a child has to spend one year, not to mention three years, with a teacher who is not up to standard for several reasons.

I have referred previously to early retirement. Some people who enter teaching at 19 years of age may, through ill health or for other reasons, not be suitable for teaching. There should be a way out for such people, more for the sake of the children than for anyone else, in the form of early retirement.

Some of the experts believe the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio will be a bonanza for teachers. We should put the children of the nation first, as they will be the ones who will gain from a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio. I was a teacher for over 30 years and I do not think I ever had fewer than 37 pupils in my class. If I was teaching a class of 26 pupils, it was the children who would gain most. A teacher has to work flat out no matter how many pupils there are in a class and a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio will only mean that a teacher will have a better chance of helping those children who are slow learners. If there is a large number of children in a class a teacher will have to try to cater for the average ones. If I regret anything in my career it is that I did not give more time to those children who were slow to learn. However, I had the impossible task of teaching together very clever students, those in the middle stream and the weaker ones.

The ideal size class in a primary school is one with 25 pupils. Even though it is claimed that the pupil-teacher ratio is 26:1 or 28:1 these figures mean nothing because they are arrived at by including all principals, including walking principals, and teachers in one and two teacher schools. Therefore, the figures given of the average pupil-teacher ratio are artificial. There are still thousands of children in classes of over 40 pupils. It is very difficult for a teacher to deal with that number of children. Unless a teacher is a walking genius the pupils do not get the attention they need.

As I have said, the ones who will gain from a reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio will be the children. That is as it should be. There is no point in pretending that teachers who have fewer than 30 pupils in their class can light a cigarette, put their feet up and wait until 3 p.m. to head home. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I want to refer to the need for remedial teachers. Because of the number of disadvantaged areas in Dublin there is a danger that the vast majority of remedial teachers will be located in schools here. There are children in country schools who also need help. The school in which I worked shared a remedial teacher with another school. This system should be availed of more by country schools. Rural children deserve the same crack at the whip as city children. In view of the fact that there are so many young teachers available more remedial teachers should be appointed. This may cost money but it would give children the greatest chance they can get, that is, the chance to be educated to the best of their ability. Smart children can survive almost in spite of teachers but children who are slow need help. The Minister for Education should make more remedial teachers available for rural children who have difficulty in learning. Such children are disadvantaged by nature itself and I ask her to increase the number of remedial teachers available.

I am very interested in the social welfare area at present. The Minister for Finance emphasised the importance of getting our national debt under control. Last year the Treasury Management Agency, a body of select intelligent people, were set up to try to renegotiate our loans, get better value for money and make cutbacks. The Minister hopes that this will lead to a saving of £40 million next year. I accept that our national debt is an awful burden on us. Seventy-five per cent of our income tax goes to repay this debt.

I started my contribution by saying that this is a PR Government. When Deputy Garret FitzGerald was brave enough in 1981-82, and he was working against all the odds and not getting any support from the Opposition, to talk about the national debt he was labelled a monetarist, a Thatcherite, a book-keeper and a man who had no feelings. It seems okay now to talk about the problems of the national debt and how it must be got under control but no one calls the present Taoiseach a monetarist or a Thatcherite. I do not know what has happened in the meantime. There was a time when you could not pull up behind a motor car which did not have a sticker stating "Axe the tax". However, for some strange reason no one seems to care about this now.

When I was a Senator I supported a motion in the Seanad which called for the removal of VAT on hurleys. I have been a member of the GAA all my life and I believed that hurleys were very expensive and should be made as cheap as possible. Even though my party were in power at that time I supported that motion. This was such a serious topic at the time that Ministers were not invited to Croke Park to see the All Ireland finals. However, that issue does not seem to matter now. As I have said, there does not seem to be any difficulty now in ignoring what were regarded as problems in the past.

We have been told that this is the best Government ever but I wonder on what standards they are judged. The same problems exist now for people who are waiting to get into hospital as existed in 1987 when the then Minister Mr. Barry Desmond, made an attempt to rationalise the health service.

Debate adjourned.
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