Dick Spring
Question:12 Mr. Spring asked the Minister for Justice if he has any proposals for modernising the conveyancing and probate law procedures; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Conveyancing and Probate Law.
The Law Reform Commission were requested by the Attorney General to examine conveyancing law and practice in areas where this could lead to savings for house purchasers. They have produced two reports in this area to date and these will be considered in my Department in the normal way, along with further reports which are expected from the commission in connection with this matter. Any proposals for legislation in this area will be announced in the usual way in due course.
My Department are also responsible for the administration of the 25 local land registries throughout the country. The offices in Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and Castlebar are linked to the central Land Registry computer system in Dublin, for the purpose of dealing with new folios. This facility will be extended and the result will be a more streamlined and efficient service to local applicants for Land Registry folios which are required for conveyancing and other purposes.
In relation to probate, the recording and processing of probate and administration work is computerised in the Central Probate Office in the Four Courts, Dublin, and the system is working satisfactorily and efficiently. My Department are planning to link the 14 district probate offices to the computer in Dublin. This link will allow district offices to deal more promptly with applications for grants of probate and letters of administration.
First let me say I am glad to hear that certain positive steps have been taken. May I ask the Minister when he would expect the contents of the report to be put into operation? Would the Minister agree also that the delays in this area are causing great public concern and are causing great difficulties in certain commercial activities? There are delays of nine months to a year in some cases of conveyancing.
Yes, Deputy. The legislation will come as soon as possible. These reports are among a number of reports from the Law Reform Commission which are being worked on at present. I assure the Deputy that I share his concern on the effect these delays have on commercial operations throughout the country. However, much work has been done since we discussed this in this House early last year and late the year previous to that. I am pleased to be able to say to the Deputy that in dealings which cover all operations of Land Registry, etc., we had 91,381 dealings in 1989 and we had 92,627 dealings last year, an increase of 1.4 per cent but most importantly from the delay point of view the output from the offices in 1989 was 72,668 dealings and in 1990 the figure rose to 93,000, an increase of 28 per cent. There has been a considerable increase in the output from the Department and I would like to take the opportunity of congratulating the Registrar and all concerned in the registries for the work they have put in. There has been a decrease in the backlog — although the backlog is still unacceptably high — but it is being tackled. The Deputy will be aware that the decision to establish the registries as a semi-State operation has already been taken and work on the preparation of that is already underway.
I welcome the Minister's reaffirmation of the decision — I wondered whether it had been lost in the original answer — that an independent semi-State body will be established incorporating the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds. Would the Minister agree that the area of conveyancing is probably one of the most closed of all closed shops vis-à-vis the legal profession, and solicitors, in particular, and that unless the Minister brings in amending legislation dealing with the rules of conveyancing, we will never break that monopoly? Do the Minister's proposals for legislation include recognition of the Fair Trade Commission report which clearly and strongly recommends the breaking up of the conspiracy of the professions in regard to conveyancing? Finally, could the Minister give us an indication as to when the independent semi-autonomous body dealing with the Land Registry and other matters will be established?
Work on the establishment of the semi-State structure and the legislation for it is well advanced. A group, including civil servants and outsiders, are looking at the registry in preparation for the establishment of the semi-State structure. Work is well advanced.
With regard to the proposal to amend the law to allow people other than solicitors to practise conveyancing, which is really what the Deputy is getting at, I pointed out in a reply on 19 February last that the recommendations and conclusions of the 1990 Fair Trade Commission report on the legal profession about the provision of a conveyancing service are being examined and the decisions reached will be announced in the normal way in due course. With regard to the Deputy's point about the commission's report, let me say there was no unanimous recommendation about the removal of the present restrictions on non-solicitors providing conveyancing services for reward. The commission's chairman favoured the ending of the restricting, but only after the process of land transfer has been simplified. The other commission member did not favour the creation of a new class of licensed conveyancer so there was no strong recommendation from the Fair Trade Commission on that.
Is the Minister aware that one of the major obstacles to any house purchaser is the whole question of bridging loans and the interest paid for the duration of the bridging finance? Would the Minister clarify once and for all whether he agrees with the opinion given in the commission's report that there should be a separate class of conveyancing clerk? There are two options in the report and may I ask the Minister which option he favours? Would he also react to the opinion around the country that there is no political will to make real changes in the professional conspiracy that Deputy McCartan says exists?
As I have already said, there will be a new Solicitors Bill on the way soon. The Deputy will just have to await the publication of that Bill and he can judge the political will at that stage.
In regard to the problems created for young couples and others buying homes because of bridging finance, of course I am aware of them, as any Deputy in this House dealing with constituents would be. Everything that can be done should be done to reduce those delays. That is what I am attempting to do with the speeding up of the Land Registry operations and also in the new Solicitors Bill.
I put it to the Minister that he is being unfairly complimentary to himself when he speaks of the fact that the backlog in the Land Registry has been in any way diminished in the past 12 months. Is the Minister aware that the simple process of photocopying a map can take anything up to six months and that the issue of a land certificate, a three page document, can take anything up to seven months? Could the Minister not be more precise as to the nature of his reforms? Is he further aware that if a person owns his land, house or whatever for a period of 40 years and an application is made to the Land Registry for the issue of the title documents, he is presumed to be dead? Such is the cumbersome and farcical nature of our conveyancing procedures that an owner of land for 40 years must produce a certificate that he is alive and that he is entitled to his title documents.
In regard to the operation of the Land Registry, I think it is reasonable to be complimentary to the registrar, to the staff and, indirectly to myself. If there has been a 28 per cent increase in the work rate of the office, that is reasonable within 12 months and I think they are to be congratulated on it. The fact is that the Deputy's party were in Government for many years and nothing was done about it.
That was four years ago.
This is four years ago.
And the country is paying for it yet.
The Solicitors Bill was already drawn up.
Many is the time Deputy Allen came into the House and attacked even his own Ministers in relation to the Solicitors Act. It is on its way——
It was ready when Fianna Fáil went into Government.
I am sure the Deputy will be duly complimentary when it does arrive.