Michael Bell
Question:14 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Defence the number of times that the Taoiseach convened a meeting of the Council of Defence while he held the appointment of Minister for Defence.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Council of Defence Meetings.
John Bruton
Question:19 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Minister for Defence the number of occasions on which the Council of Defence has met in the last ten years; his views on whether the Council is performing an effective role; and, if not, if he proposes to disband it.
I propose to answer Questions Nos. 14 and 19 together.
The Council of Defence stands established under the Defence Act, 1954, to aid and counsel the Minister on all matters in relation to the business of the Department of Defence on which he may consult the council. The council comprises the Minister of State at the Department of Defence together with the senior civil and military officers of the Department. As the Minister has ready access individually and collectively to the persons who are members of the council the functions of the council are in practice exercised on a routine basis.
There was one formal meeting of the council in the last ten years, which took place in 1987.
I am not surprised at the Minister's reply. It is obvious that this council is not relevant today on the basis of what the Minister has said. In view of the Gleeson report, which states clearly that there is a need for a new structure, comprising senior military and senior civil servant management, would the Minister not agree to consider setting up such a structure to meet the needs of present day conditions?
That will be considered.
Is the Minister in a position to outline to the House the nature of the Council of Defence meeting held in 1987?
Yes, I had the pleasure to be present at that meeting.
It was to meet the Minister himself.
The council met in August 1987 to advise the Minister on the setting up of the defence policy review. That was the first meeting for 13 years.
You got such a fright that you decided against calling any more.
The Minister's response, in which he stated that the purpose of the meeting was to advise the Minister on the setting up of the defence policy review, is interesting. May I ask the Minister how relevant is the Council of Defence and why, in view of 1992 and a united Europe, the council has not been convened since 1987 to further consider development of the defence policy review?
They are two separate bodies.
That matter does not arise now.
I have already indicated that I have access on a regular basis to meet various officers of the council and we do discuss matters in a routine way. There is really no necessity to call a formal meeting because we do get together on a regular basis informally.
Does the Minister see any particular role at this point for the Council of Defence in relation to the wider European defence and security policy and does he see a role for them in the united Europe?
That is a separate issue.
That is a widening of the question.
Deputies Ryan and McCartan rose.
A final question, Deputy Ryan.
Question No. 19 in the name of Deputy J. Bruton deals with this matter also.
I am aware of that Deputy.
This is a very relevant matter. Does the Minister intend to maintain the Council of Defence or to have it abolished, or will he keep it there in name without any function and does he not see any future for it in an overall united Europe?
That is a separate issue.
This is ridiculous. We have had questions transferred from Defence to Foreign Affairs. When anything relates in any way to common European defence and security the Government goes into convulsions and run scared and the Irish people do not know what they are at. This is a specific question.
Deputy Quinn, we must proceed in an orderly fashion at Question Time by way of supplementary questions, which should be concise, succinct and relative to the subject matter before us. Please proceed on those lines.
I agree with you, a Cheann Comhairle, but I find if supplementaries refer in any way to European defence or common security policy the Minister refuses to reply. What future does the Minister see for the Council of Defence in a united Europe? Will it exist or will it be abolished?
It is not the function of this council to oversee international policy; that is a matter for Foreign Affairs. The function of the council is to review its own operations internally, not internationally.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Quinn, allow me to intervene. Resume your seat. There are a number of Deputies offering. Deputy Quinn may not dominate Question Time in this fashion. I will facilitate her in every respect but she must give way to some other people also. Deputy Ryan, Deputy McCartan and Deputy Durcan are offering.
The Minister is being evasive in respect of the Council of Defence.
I told the Deputy I would consider his proposal.
In all fairness to the spokespersons who put down these questions, we need something more positive. There is a need for an involvement of personnel other than military personnel. I want the Minister to acknowledge that and to give a more definite commitment to something that has been recommended by Gleeson and not merely to take the parts that suit him.
The Defence Review Group consist of quite a number of civilians, and not members of the Defence Forces. This group, who were set up in 1987, are reviewing military policy, Army policy and so forth. They are a separate group to the council, whom we are discussing. The Deputy made a suggestion in regard to the future of the council. As I have said, I will consider his suggestion.
May I ask the Minister to comment on the propriety of convening a statutorily constituted council on, as he said, an informal basis? This seems to be a totally unsatisfactory way in which to treat this statutory body who were established under law for a specific and defined purpose. Does he agree that this reduction in the status of the council to a sort of cocktail cabinet who meet informally means they cannot do their business properly and that something should be done to either modify or upgrade the status of the council or disband them entirely?
The Deputy's imagination is running riot.
Deputy Bernard Durkan.
Is the Minister going to reply to my question?
We will leave the cocktail cabinet to The Workers' Party.
The Minister said that these meetings are convened on an informal basis. What does that mean?
Deputy McCartan, I have called Deputy Durkan.
May I ask the Minister to give us details of the membership of the Defence Council? Does he envisage that the council should meet on a more regular basis in the future, having regard to the changes which may be initiated at European level?
The membership of the council comprises the Minister of State at the Department of Defence together with senior civil and military officers of the Department.
Question No. 15, please.
Are meetings held on a regular basis?
There is reference to the council in the Gleeson report.
Are we going to stay on this question all day?
May I ask a supplementary question?
A brief question, Deputy.
The Minister said earlier that the Defence Council met in 1987 to review defence policy. May I ask him if he was advised by the Defence Council at that meeting——
The Defence Review Group.
The Minister said the Defence Council held a meeting to advise on defence policy——
I said they held a meeting on the setting up of a defence review group.
May I ask the Minister if the issue of European defence and a common European security policy was discussed at that meeting?
That is a separate matter.
Question No. 15, please.
The Minister is running shy again.
There is no harm in trying. The Deputy will find Defence matters somewhat different to Marine matters.