Vol. 407 No. 8
10 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Justice if he will outline the legislative proposals his Department have to deal with commercial fraud; his views on whether this type of fraud has substantially increased; if he has any statistics to indicate the level of commercial fraud; the number and types of cases under investigation; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
18 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the statements made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, at a recent symposium in Dublin, in which he said that Irish law was clearly inadequate to cope with commercial fraud and that urgent measures were necessary to prevent the financial sector from becoming a happy hunting ground for sophisticated white collar criminals; his views on the suggestions, made by the Director of Public Prosecutions, that examining magistrates with extensive powers of investigation should be appointed and the Garda be given extended powers to search and investigate; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
65 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Justice if he intends to introduce legislation to create a general offence of fraud.
66 Mr. Barry asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to the comments by the Director of Public Prosecutions that Irish law is so clearly inadequate to deal with commercial fraud and that radical new measures are necessary; if he intends introducing new legislation in this area; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
71 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for Justice if he proposes to introduce new legislation to combat white collar fraud as it is now becoming widespread throughout the Community and in view of the fact that the Garda are obviously ill-equipped to deal with this increasing problem.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 18, 65, 66 and 71 together.
The Law Reform Commission are currently finalising a review of the law relating to dishonesty generally. The commission have been looking at this area for some time now, and have addressed possible measures to tackle the problem of so-called white collar crime and computer-based fraud. It is the Government's intention to make whatever changes in the criminal law are necessary to modernise the law in this regard as soon as the commission's recommendations have been received.
I have no proposals to introduce a system of examining magistrates. The alternative suggestion made by the Director of Public Prosecutions to increase the powers of the Garda with regard to search and seizure will be considered.
I also expect to be in a position soon to introduce legislation to deal with the admissibility as evidence in criminal matters of business and computerised records in a proposed Criminal Evidence Bill. This was a matter touched on also by the Director of Public Prosecutions in his address.
There is no specific offence of commercial fraud as such and details of larceny and other fraud offences can be obtained from the annual reports of the Garda Commissioner on crime. I would refer Deputies to my reply of 5 February last dealing with the Garda Síochána Fraud Squad in which I indicated that a total of 39 companies are under investigation.
Would the Minister agree that part of the problem relates to the fact that the people with the necessary skills who have to deal with commercial fraud in the Garda Síochána are such that they can be very easily enticed into civilian life and that it is difficult to maintain the level of staff and expertise in the section generally? Is the Minister aware of that and can he indicate what he proposes to do to strengthen that section?
The level of resources required by all sections in units of the Garda Síochána for the proper and efficient discharge of their duties is kept under constant review by the Garda authorities and necessary adjustments in manpower or other resources are made as required. The Garda Síochána Fraud Squad comprise a detective superintendent, two detective inspectors, six detective sergeants and 35 detective gardaí. The strength of the squad is kept under review in the light of changing needs and circumstances. At present a total of 39 companies are being investigated by the fraud squad. While specialist lawyers, accountants and auditors are not attached to the fraud squad, the Garda authorities are fully aware that any specialist assistance they may need in these areas will be readily made available to them. I am assured by the Garda authorities that investigations by the squad are not and never have been inhibited by any lack of resources, specialist or otherwise. Also the legal services of the Chief State Solicitor's office and the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions are made available as required to the squad to assist in their investigations.
I am calling Deputy McCartan whose Question No. 18 refers.
In order to assess the earnestness with which the Minister is pursuing this matter may I ask whether he agrees with the views expressed by the Director of Public Prosecutions that our Irish laws clearly are inadequate to cope with commercial fraud? May I specifically ask whether the Law Reform Commission are examining specifically the Forgery Act, 1913, with a view to having it repealed and amended?
I cannot comment on the Forgery Act, 1913, but I can check it out for the Deputy. In relation to the need for change the Law Reform Commission, as I have already indicated in the initial response, are examining this whole measure and the general law relating to dishonesty. Whatever proposals they come up with will be acted on as a matter of urgency.
What is the Minister's own view of the law as it stands?
As I have already said the Law Reform Commission are examining it. In relation to changes in regard to computer based fraud I am bringing in proposals in a criminal evidence Bill which we have discussed in this House on a number of occasions. It has already been approved by Government. It will be published as soon as possible because it is an area which needs to be tightened up.
I had tabled a question in relation to this matter which was disallowed on a technical point. I will have to talk to you about it afterwards. Is the Minister aware of growing public concern in relation to the air of respectability that appears to surround white collar crime for the simple reason that we do not seem to take it seriously? Would he agree that we will not be able to tackle this problem unless (a) we amend our laws — and I hate saying this — somewhat in accordance with what they have done in Britain; (b) there are proposals to co-operate with the British authorities in the advances they have made in dealing with this whole area; and (c) he provides not only adequate resources to the fraud squad in terms of manpower, but also affords them the opportunity of proper training to deal with this very complex area?
I have already referred to the need for change in the legislation. I can assure the Deputy that there is a high level of co-operation between the police forces on crime matters not only between our neighbouring island but also with our colleagues in the rest of Europe. I can assure the Deputy, as I have already outlined to Deputy Bell in response to his question, that whatever facilities, resources, training, personnel, technical or expert backup are required by the Garda will be made available to them on request. The Garda Commissioner has assured me that he is satisfied with the level of resources at present but this matter is constantly under review and if additional resources are required, they will be made available immediately.
Does the Minister not accept there is an enormous sense of outrage at the fact that we do not seem to be able to bring these cases successfully to trial whether through lack of resources or because of the legislative system? Comparisons have been made with our neighbouring jurisdiction where there was a successful prosecution of a case in Belfast and there was no prosecution of the same case in Dublin. Guinness were on trial in the United Kingdom but there is an understanding that that type of trial could not take place here. Will the Minister not take the necessary steps, whether by changing the laws or providing additional resources, etc., to respond to this sense of outrage and to ensure commercial fraud is and will be dealt with properly in this country?
I have outlined already on a number of occasions the full set of measures that are being taken.
Nothing is happening.
