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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 May 1991

Vol. 408 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Job Creation: Motion.

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann, appalled that in each of the last two months in succession new all-time records were reached in the Register of Unemployment, despite the fact that emigration in the latest four years of 136,000 was almost double the 71,000 who emigrated in the preceding four years; noting that unemployment, now standing at 19.7 per cent of the workforce is the highest by far in the EC and more than double the EC average, calls for the establishment of an all-party committee on job creation with responsibility to:—

(1) carry out as speedily as possible an audit of all Government activity to identify and propose changes to any schemes which discourage, or fail adequately to encourage, the creation or seeking of employment and to recommend such steps as it considers appropriate to improve the climate for the creation and maintenance of jobs;

(2) propose specific initiatives that can be taken to promote the creation of viable jobs."

Last month unemployment was at its highest level in history. To put this in context, the wife of the former United States Ambassador to Ireland, Mrs. Elizabeth Shannon, once said that the Irish totally lack any sense of outrage. That lack of any sense of outrage could not be better illustrated than by the bored disinterest which everybody, the media, politicians and businessmen, greeted the publication of the worst ever unemployment statistics, under British or Irish rule.

In March 1991, 246,500 people were registered as unemployed; to ensure comparability with figures for earlier years one must add 5,554 people on a pre-retirement allowance and 2,992 people claiming pre-retirement credits. In earlier years these two categories would have been included in the overall figure of registered unemployed. If you include them it gives a total of 254,966 people unemployed here last month, 19.54 per cent of the workforce. Unemployment never before reached this level, the highest level was 19 per cent in March 1987. The figure of 19.54 per cent is all the worse when you consider how many people have left Ireland since March 1987; 136,000 people have left Ireland since Deputy Haughey became Taoiseach; the rate of emigration in the last four years under the Taoiseach has been double that of the preceding four years.

If the emigrants who left Ireland, unable to find work here since Deputy Haughey became Taoiseach, were included with the unemployed to whom I have already referred, there would be a total number of 391,000 — 30 per cent of the workforce — who could not find work here under his Administration. I contend that in judging any economic policy, the criterion is not the rate of inflation, the balance of payments or any of those abstractions so beloved of the number crunching profession, the judgment of the success of any economic policy is to be found in the number of people who find work — or who fail to find work — in the country in question.

We seem to have very contradictory views about these matters. In a recent poll 54 per cent of the people said they were satisfied with the Government yet, in research commissioned in 1988, when the question was asked in relation to what politicians could do to make things better, solving unemployment came out top of the list; it had twice as much support as any other matter, including reforming the tax system. Yet, for some obscure reason, people seem to be satisfied with a Government whose record of unemployment I have just described. Support in that poll for the concept that politicians could and should do something about unemployment was particularly high among Fianna Fáil supporters, twice as high among Fianna Fáil supporters as opposed to the Progressive Democrats. It was particularly high under the age of 25. The contradiction of the failure to link dissatisfaction with the level of unemployment with the satisfaction with the Government represents schizophrenia in our society. However, I — and the party I am honoured to lead — intend to put employment and emigration back at the top of the political agenda. We will do it by demonstrating that there are things politicians can do about jobs and by demonstrating that voters are not wrong in demanding action on jobs from their politicians.

Part of the job of the Opposition is to create that sense of outrage, so lacking here, about matters that can be changed but which are not being changed. I believe there is a consensus among opinion-formers, unfortunately including the Government, that nothing can be done about unemployment and jobs. This consensus expresses itself in all sorts of different ways; economic commentators congratulate the Government on their success in bringing in a balance of payments surplus and having minimal inflation but they ignore the fact that these two phenomena are accompanied by record unemployment, that is just a detail in their minds. Yet, a combination of low inflation, a balance of payments surplus and record unemployment would have been summarised in one word — deflation — in the economic textbooks I read 25 years ago when I was in college. We have a deflated economy yet no one among our educated élite seems to care. Times have changed a lot in 25 years.

As I said, unemployment now stands at 254,000 and emigration outlets have now been closed or are closing, yet the labour force continues to grow at 25,000 per year. If present trends continue unemployment will reach 300,000 in two years' time. Perhaps by then someone will begin to worry, not perhaps because of the plight of the people concerned but because it will have upset the Government's borrowing targets.

Lack of a job is the biggest source of inequality in society; the key social issue facing our society today is not the redistribution of income or wealth — we have reached a limit on redistribution in those areas in the light of free outward movement of capital and labour which will exist after 1992 — but the redistribution of opportunities to work.

I referred earlier to the official consensus that still seems to reign that nothing can be done about unemployment. There is no better expression of this official consensus than the areas the Fianna Fáil Government have decided should be given tax relief over the last four years. No new tax incentives have been introduced by Fianna Fáil during the last four years to create jobs. In fact, there have been disincentives in the form of higher PRSI payments for part-time work. On the other hand, many tax incentives have been introduced to encourage property development, such as the development of hotels, inner city properties, the Temple Bar and the Custom House Docks site. These have cost huge sums of money. However, few extra jobs have been created. Instead, jobs have been shifted from one part of town to another.

Our tax system seems to have been deliberately designed to discourage small businesses from creating jobs. The comparative cost of the paper work involved in employing somebody is far higher for a small employer than for a big employer, yet no one sees the need to do anything about this. All international studies suggest that it is small, not big, employers who will create most jobs in the future. The era of the big organisation as a job creator is over. The fax machine and the personal computer have ended the reign of the big organisation as a job creator, yet Ireland's tax system is deliberately biased against the new job creator of the future, the small company. Let me illustrate this bias. The Commission on Taxation at paragraph 8.8 of their fifth report estimate that the tax compliance costs per job were almost twice as high under our present system among small companies than big companies. The commission also showed that tax compliance costs in the private sector were more than three times those in the public sector, yet nothing has been done about this since the Commission on Taxation reported. Those are the companies with the greatest potential to create jobs.

Small employers cannot afford to have a big personnel and legal department to advise them on the maze of industrial relations law which has been created supposedly to protect existing jobs but it is actually discouraging the creation of new jobs. In a dynamic world where new jobs naturally replace old ones the effect of our tax and regulatory system, with its high protection of existing jobs and disincentives to the creation of new ones, is inevitably to steadily reduce year after year the total number of jobs in the economy. That is the way we have structured our tax, regulatory and industrial relations systems to discourage the creation of new jobs in order to increase the property value in existing jobs.

Our policy on company taxation is also biased against jobs. It was most unwise for the Fianna Fáil Government to guarantee a tax rate of only 10 per cent for manufacturing companies up to the year 2010, in other words, for the next 20 years. That very unwise decision is at the very core of our industrial policy which is inherently unsuitable to a country like Ireland which has a surplus of well educated labour. If we want foreign firms to create permanent jobs in Ireland we must get them to set up their research and marketing operations here. It is only the brain based part of a business, research and marketing, which creates significant numbers of jobs in the country in which they are located, but a low company tax rate policy, 10 per cent, which we have guaranteed to keep for the next 20 years, actually keeps research and development and marketing operations out of the country simply because research and marketing — think about this — cost money and they do not produce profits in the country in which they operate. Things which cost money are expenses against tax. Therefore, the lower the tax rate the less chance there is that a multinational will locate, they will locate in an area where they can set off expenses for tax purposes. In fact, the use of the guarantee of a low tax rate of 10 per cent for the next 20 years as the main means of attracting foreign industry reduces the tax incentive to establish research and development and marketing operations in Ireland. It reduces the incentive to establish employment intensive manufacturing in Ireland and encourages instead the establishment of mechanised manufacturing operations which generate large amounts of profits which are repatriated and which, with the onset of automation which is increasingly affecting manufacturing, involve little or no employment. If we continue with this policy, where the human hand is replaced by the machine in the manufacturing operation, we will soon have large numbers of factories producing large profits with very few people employed. That will be the direct result of the political decision to go for a 10 per cent tax rate for the next 20 years when we could and should have gone for a system of taxation which gave the same number of incentives to industry but in a form which encouraged the multinationals to locate their research and development, marketing and other costs generating activities rather than profit generating activities here. It is a simple mistake.

The Government's personal income tax policy is equally anti-job creation. Concentrating all resources, as the Programme for Economic and Social Progress says, and reducing tax rates to 25p and 40p in the pound while leaving tax bands and allowances unchanged will give considerable benefits to those already at work with a good income but it will do little or nothing to help create new jobs or help people starting work for the first time. Those starting work for the first time will face a crippling PRSI burden on the first pound they earn and will find that they will reach the higher rate of tax very quickly, far more quickly than they would in any other European country. We have a system which imposes a high tax rate on income from work but which gives tax free status to payments which encourage people to give up work voluntarily in the form of redundancy payments. The effect of this bias in our tax system has been to encourage the sale of jobs and a net reduction in total employment.

I also believe there is a fundamental anti-job creation bias in the Irish social system and there is an unspoken conspiracy, most recently expressed in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, that no one should speak about it. Fine Gael intend to speak about it, and that is the reason we put down this motion. We want an audit of all Government activity to identify and propose changes to any schemes, such as those I have referred to, which discourage or fail adequately to encourage the creation of or seeking of employment and to recommend such steps as they consider necessary to improve the climate for the creation and maintenance of jobs. We want such an all-party committee to propose specific initiatives which can be taken to promote the creation of viable jobs. The committee should, if necessary, recommend hard and unpopular decisions which will help to create jobs.

Let me give some examples of some of the things the committee might recommend which would create more jobs. I put these forward simply as illustrations to show that there are large numbers of things which can be done and which are not being done because in this country we have talked ourselves into a state of mind which believes that nothing can be done about jobs, that jobs do not matter and that so long as I have my job it does not matter if the other man does not. We have created a conspiracy of silence about jobs. I recognise that, even speaking here today on this subject, to some degree I am going against the majority consensus which has been created with the aid of the Government and all their admirers who believe that inflation, the balance of payments and matters of that kind are more important than jobs. A society which fails to create jobs is a failure. By that standard Irish society, not just the Government represented by one single individual sitting in front of me, but society as a whole, is a failure.

We have a mental attitude which has created a condition of acceptance of failure in this and many other areas. We can pride ourselves on the fact that this year Dublin is the European city of culture and no doubt we will have numerous public relations events celebrating this magnificent achievement. Dublin is also Europe's city of unemployment, Europe's city of joblessness. I wonder if that fact will get the same public relations attention from the Government, the Taoiseach and their media advisers. It is because it will not that we have tabled this motion. I wish to illustrate some of the things that could be recommended by a courageous Government who want to make decisions, unlike the present Government who simply want to stay in office. I will outline the measures that should be put forward to deal with this massive social crisis that we face.

I wish to put forward eight proposals. First, we should scrap IDA grants for machines and buildings and give the same amount of money to the same people in a form of credits against PRSI. In other words, they would only get the grant when they had employed somebody and they would only get as much grant as PRSI that they had paid on people employed. We should also, as I have already indicated, change the company tax system to encourage job creation through research and development rather than profit repatriation, which is the objective of our current corporate tax system. Secondly, we must encourage redundant workers to retrain. Most redundant workers of any age will never work again unless they retrain. Employers wanting to lay off employees should be required to give them not only a redundancy lump sum but also a retraining voucher, a sum of money that could be used to upgrade skills. Unfortunately, at present the only body providing training to those who are redundant are FÁS and they only give priority to people who either are long term unemployed or who would probably become re-employed anyway because FÁS have the objective of having good statistics to show. They have a monopoly, they are virtually the only organisation engaged in providing training for the unemployed. Monopolies are not the most productive means of bringing forward new ideas. Instead of FÁS having a monopoly on training, if each individual who became redundant was given a voucher that could buy £1,000 or £2,000 worth of training that would actually create an active market in retraining for the unemployed. Firms would compete with ideas for forms of training that would lead to work because they would want to be the beneficiaries of the money the redundant workers had available. Instead of people having to remain on the dole and on a waiting list for a year or two for a FÁS course by which time they would become demoralised, people becoming redundant would immediately find themselves sought after by a variety of firms who would be willing to offer them a choice of various retraining opportunities. In my view that system would be better than the present system where retraining the unemployed is monopolised by FÁS.

Thirdly, we can and must get rid of the poverty traps which presently prevent people from taking up work or, indeed, from working more or harder. The way to do this is to introduce a single graduated means test for all benefits, including benefits like differential rent and others that are currently means tested. This test would cover graduated entitlements to medical services, higher education grants, free fuel, council rent rebates, family income supplements and also movement to higher rates of tax and PRSI. One could structure such a single means test in such a way that, for instance, if one's money increased to over £110 a week, instead of losing the medical card altogether and having 100 per cent of one's medical bills paid one would have 90 per cent of them paid and if one moved beyond that to say £130 a week one would have only 80 per cent of one's medical bills paid. If there was a single unified means test under which the Department of Education, the county council and all State bodies would unify their means test in one national means test we could so design that means test — it would require a lot of administrative effort certainly — so that nobody in any part of the country or in any social situation would be worse off, working harder on taking up a job than they would staying in his or her present situation.

This proposal would not include insurance-based benefits which are not means-tested at the moment and I would not propose that a means test be extended to include them. It would, however, cover all the existing benefits which are means-tested. The only obstacle to such a scheme which would make it worthwhile for everybody to work is administrative inertia. It is the Government's job to deal with that. The Minister may forget that the Fianna Fáil Party in 1987 promised to simplify and unify means tests. They promised that four years ago. It was a good idea at the time but they have not followed through with it. The reason is that the civil servants in the individual Government Departments will not let them. The Departments will not co-operate one with the other in designing such a scheme and the Government have not got the will or the wish to get the civil servants to do what they know and recognised in 1987 as necessary to remove poverty traps.

It is a convention of the House that no blame be attached to civil servants. The Minister is responsible.

In this case, the point is absolutely germane. I cannot withdraw the point I have made. I do not wish to attack any individual civil servant but it is administrative inertia. I accept the Chair's stricture, as always.

The ruling of my predecessors has always been that.

The Minister has given up on jobs.

The proposal I have made about a single national means test has been endorsed by the NESC in their report on The Economic and Social Implications of Emigration published this week.

Fourthly, if we want to deal with the employment problem we can keep more people at school. Education is the key to employment. There is only 3 per cent unemployment among those who are university graduates and only 6 per cent among those who have the leaving certificate as against 30 per cent unemployment among those who left school without any qualifications. At the moment there are jobs remaining unfilled because of the lack of applicants. Demand for computer staff rose by 61 per cent last year while the demand for conventional office staff dropped by 23 per cent. The opportunities are there if the training and education is right but our educational and training system is failing us as far as filling those vacancies is concerned. The proportion of Irish 18 to 20 year-olds still in education or college is far below that on the Continent and there must be a direct link between that fact and the fact that we have the highest level of unemployment in Europe, yet places in school do not cost more than spaces on the dole queue and they are a far better passport to work.

One of the biggest disappointments of the recent Programme for Economic and Social Progress was its failure to come up with any proposals for a comprehensive apprenticeship system, like the German system, covering all occupations and providing a sensible mix of education and work with a specific employer. Ireland is also spending a smaller proportion of its EC Structural Funds on training than either Spain or Portugal and that, in view of the labour surplus we have here, is something the Minister for Labour ought to explain.

It is also important if people are to work, that they can read and write. A 1985 study showed that 30 per cent of those entering second level schools, having spent eight full years in the Irish educational system, were still backward readers in the English language. I do not have figures on their competence in reading Irish on which they would have spent even more time than they spent learning to read English, but the fact that 30 per cent were unable to read English properly after eight years in the educational system is surely a damning indictment of our educational system. Such people entering second level schools unable to read or write properly are virtually certain to spend the rest of their lives unemployed in modern society. The easiest, the quickest and the most appropriate intervention that the State can make to prevent people becoming long term unemployed is to ensure that no child leaves a national school in Ireland unable to read or write. We should aim by 1997 to have achieved a situation in which no child will leave a national school anywhere in Ireland unable to read or write properly.

I contend that to achieve this we need a systematic national test to identify those in need of remedial reading at the age of eight. There should be a test of all children, even if some teachers feel that their classroom methods are being subjected to objective outside scrutiny, which they do not welcome. We need a national test to identify in time those children who need help. If we want to guarantee a permanent underclass people unable to hold down a permanent job ever, we can continue to allow children to leave our national schools unable to read or write. The introduction of a systematic national test is the simplest, quickest and most effective thing we can do, to ensure that we reduce our level of long term unemployment.

Fifthly, we can make it more attractive for employers to take on extra staff. Absenteeism would be cut if sick pay was part of normal income for tax purposes, as is already the case in Britain. Because sick pay is tax free sometimes people find it more attractive at particular times of the year to be off sick than to be at work. By so doing they undermine the competitiveness of the business for which they work and ultimately create a situation in which their employer wishes to replace staff with machines which do not go off sick.

We should also consider allowing trade unions to agree with particular employers to dispense with the Unfair Dismissals Act for extra employees taken on as part of an agreed job creation programme. I want to stress that trade unions would have to agree to such a proposal. Of course, these ideas will not be popular with everybody — Deputy Spring has criticised them — but the fact is that our present system, from industrial relations law to education, is biased against job creation and is mainly aimed at protecting the property rights of those who are already employed at the expense of job creation for those who are currently unemployed or still at school.

Sixthly, we should encourage the creation of part-time job opportunities by allowing the social employment scheme to be extended to cover groups of private individuals taking people off unemployment to do part-time home-based work, such as child care, home maintenance, house work, gardening, etc. Another way of encouraging this would be to give a tax relief for home based work. Social employment schemes are one means and tax relief is another — it is six of one and half a dozen of another. There are huge opportunities for home-based work in our society and what we need to do is to bring that work into the white economy and out of the black economy.

There are, of course, some in this House who would have an ideological objection to anyone employing people to do this sort of home-based work. Such people with that ideological view would not object to a well off person spending their money on a foreign holiday or a video but believe that spending money creating a job for a person in their home is not the done thing. Those people are wrong. A country which has such a high level of unemployment should use every means, including giving incentives to people to create employment in their own homes, to create more work opportunities for our people. We should do everything we can to divert the pattern of consumption of expenditure by our people away from buying things towards buying services which our people can provide, away from spending money on imports, including foreign holidays, towards buying the services people can provide here in Ireland.

Seventhly, we should deliberately set out to encourage the taking up of part-time or temporary work by the long term unemployed. I propose that there should be a social welfare official in every employment exchange area with the specific job of encouraging people who are unemployed to take up part-time or temporary work opportunities instead of, as happens at present, penalising them by knocking them off unemployment benefit for six weeks while the matter is investigated if they happen to take up a temporary job. Officials in the Department of Social Welfare should be encouraging people to take up part-time job opportunities. Part-time or temporary work is frequently the only passport towards a full-time job for anyone who has been unemployed for a long time.

Eighthly, and very importantly, we should gear our income tax system towards the solution of the job crisis in Ireland. In order to encourage job creation we should consider having a third new introductory tax rate of just 15 per cent for the first tranche of income which people earn after taking up a job or for those who are on a low income. This would help create jobs as it would reduce the tax burden on people taking up a job for the first time and reduce the tax burden borne by those who are employed on a relatively low wage. The likelihood is that the first job a person who has been unemployed for a long time will be offered will be for a relatively low wage. If such people are offered a job at present they are taxed as if they were semi-millionaires. This system should be changed. Instead of following the Government's policy of a 25p rate and a 40p rate which would be of considerable benefit to the well off and of disproportionate benefit to people the better off they are, we should follow a structure of tax rates which deliberately favours people who are marginal, whether employed or not. The introduction of a 15 per cent tax rate for people coming off unemployment who are likely, in their first job, to be offered a relatively low wage would be biasing our income tax system for the first time for many years in favour of the creation of work rather than the assuaging of the concerns of those who are already at work.

I make no dogmatic claims for any of the eight proposals I have made tonight. There may, indeed, be difficulties with some of them. This is the sort of thing an all-party committee, which this motion proposes, could be engaged in solving. My central point is that politicians can do something about unemployment. This requires more than just the piecemeal giving out of grants to foreign or domestic businessmen. It requires the systematic changing of all the rules under which our economy and society work, to make them favour job creation rather than discourage it. Every regulation, tax and pound of public spending should be tested against the single criterion — does it make it easier or more difficult to create jobs?

At present we have the Committee of Public Accounts who audit all public spending to see if money is wasted or spent illegally. We need even more a Dáil committee who would do a once-off audit of all Government spending, taxation and social and economic legislation and to recommend changes in the areas which discourage job creation. It is vitally necessary that we do this if we are to overcome the sense that we in Leinster House can do nothing about the job crisis in our society. We have the opportunity both today and tomorrow of doing something, of showing that we are willing to do something about the job crisis by pooling the talents of all parties in this House in a committee in which all ideological viewpoints would be represented. If we sincerely believe that something can and should be done about unemployment, why not get together and do it?

There may be some in this House who would worry about the cost of some of the measures I have proposed which would help to create jobs. They would argue that we should not go for any quick fixes so far as employment is concerned. However, if we look at the figures for our birth rate, we can see that temporary measures of the kind I have recommended are economically justified. By the year 2000 there will be 50,000 people fewer between the ages of 15 and 24 than there are today. The jobs crisis may be extremely acute at present and it may get even more acute before this decade is much older, but it will not last forever. We are, therefore, justified in taking exceptional measures as a society in the next four to eight years to tilt the balance in favour of job creation. This should come before all other priorities. For that reason it is my responsibility and duty to propose this motion to the House.

I move amendment No. a1:

To delete all words after "That Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"acknowledges the contribution which the partnership between the Government and the principal economic and social interests in our society has made, re-affirms its belief in the strategy outlined in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress as the way to develop a modern, efficient and competitive economy which will generate growth and jobs and share the benefits equitably, points to the success of this strategy in creating 70,000 new private sector jobs in three years and has confidence in the new area-based response to long term unemployment as the best way of bringing the long term unemployed back into the labour market”.

I welcome the opportunity to talk to you this evening about measures to tackle unemployment. Tackling unemployment and the creation of new jobs remain the top priority of the Government and all our policies are aimed at creating the right climate for business and investment and hence increased employment.

We have been uniquely successful as an economy in recent years and I would like immediately to remind you of some of these achievements. Economic growth in this country in the period 1987-90 exceeded the EC average at more than 4 per cent per annum. Last year economic growth was of the order of 6 per cent. The debt/GNP ratio has been reduced from 131 per cent in 1987 to 111 per cent at end-1990. Inflation has stayed at 3 per cent and the latest figure at 2.6 per cent is the lowest in the European Community and less than half of the rate in the UK. The differential with German interest rates in 1987 was 9 per cent. Now it has been reduced to just over 1 per cent, although real interest rates still remain unduly high. Exchequer borrowing has fallen dramatically from 13 per cent of GNP to 2 per cent of GNP. Our balance of payments deficit of £500 million in 1986 has been transformed into a surplus of £700 million in 1990.

Before I came into the House today I saw the first quarter figures for 1991 and that has emerged positively with the value of exports up by £97 million on the first quarter. Even though there was a marginal decline on the surface that is still extremely successful.

These are achievements which cannot be denied and the facts I have mentioned speak for themselves. Coupled with these achievements is the fact that workers got real increases in wages and the benefits of social welfare recipients were protected from inflation. Apart from that, we have had a prolonged period of relative industrial peace.

Let us compare for a moment the scenario I have just outlined with the position earlier in the eighties. I accept the point Deputy Bruton made about what bankers and industrialists say with regard to the figures. At every seminar I attend in the private sector, I continually remind them of the unemployment figures. We have to look at the earlier figures.

There has been a complete turnaround in our economic fortunes. The hopelessness of the early eighties which went so far as to challenge our political institutions has been replaced by a new found optimism. The clear facts of the matter are that we are pursuing the right policies and must continue to do so at all costs. We must beware of resorting to emergency pump priming measures which have proved useless in the past and which have been completely discredited. There must be no question of undermining investor confidence.

We were all aware that there would be a slow-down this year. The Gulf crisis has had a very unsettling effect, notably on tourism. The international recession has been deeper than expected, particularly in the case of the UK where the labour market has been badly hit. UK output is set to decline by 2 per cent this year, with a fall in investment of about 10 per cent. The recession in turn has led to a fall off in emigration — which is the main reason for the increase in the live register in the early months of this year.

The present slow down is not, however, an indication of policy failure on our part. It does not signal that we need to alter course. On the contrary, our dependence on international trade emphasises the fact that we must stick to an approach which ensures we remain competitive in foreign markets. The fundamentals of the economy are right. We have a stronger competitive position as a result of present policies. Our macroeconomic policy instruments are correctly aligned — our exchange rate is strong, our credit rating has improved and we have the correct balance of fiscal and incomes policies.

Significant gains in productivity have been achieved since 1987, and the two years to 1989 saw an increase in industrial output which was almost double that witnessed over the previous seven; compared with its main trading partners, Ireland's labour cost competitiveness improved by 18 per cent in common currency terms; OECD forecasts expect Ireland to have the lowest unit wage cost increases in the business sector of all OECD countries over the 1991-92 period.

In the increasingly competitive world of today we must not, however, rest on our laurels. We must continue to identify and implement policies which improve economic efficiency. In contrast to the uncertain nature of developments abroad, enterprise in Ireland can rely on the continuation of sound economic policies here at home. The Government are absolutely clear that the successful fiscal and monetary strategy of the last four years must continue. Even this year, in the depth of a world recession we expect to achieve positive economic growth. When the recessions in the UK and the US bottom out, we will be in a unique position to take advantage of the recovery when it occurs. Indeed, there are already some positive features in the world economy from our point of view.

In the first place, there has been a quick and decisive ending to the Gulf War which has resulted in international air traffic and tourism moving towards more normal activity patterns. Investor confidence is improving. The strengthening of the dollar has improved our competitive position vis-à-vis the United States, which should boost exports to, and tourism from, the USA.

When the world economy returns to growth later this year, which is predicted by economists, I expect the Irish economy to reap similar or even greater benefits than we saw during the last four years. We should again attain growth levels of the order of 4 per cent or 5 per cent and further increases in net employment. Just as the recession abroad has led to an increase in unemployment in almost all countries, I expect the end of that recession to show an upswing in job creation. I am confident, therefore, that the present increase in the live register is a temporary phenomenon which will be rectified as economic growth returns to the UK and the US and the effects of the Gulf War wear out.

We must not forget that the latest Labour Force Survey indicated that the numbers at work increased by 30,000 in the year to April 1990. This represented an increase of 3 per cent on the previous year and, as such, easily outstripped the average rise in the European Community over the same period. Over the period of the PNR, industry created a net 22,000 new jobs and the services sector created a net 17,000 — even after the 30,000 drop in public sector employment.

As I said earlier, the main reason for the rise in unemployment is the fall in emigration. This has been shown in the social welfare figures. The Government inherited both the economic conditions which led to emigration and a pattern of increase in involuntary emigration among those who could not find employment here. The upward trend peaked in the year beginning April 1988, for which the net outward migration figure was 46,000. By 1989, when Government policy aimed at creating a firm basis for the growth of the economy had begun to take effect, net outward migration figures showed a dramatic 30 per cent decline on the previous year. I anticipate that net migration for the year just past, to April 1991, could be as low as 15,000.

The adverse employment situation in Britain and elsewhere has, of course, contributed to this decline in outward migration. So, too, has the fact that unemployed Irish people now realise that our social welfare system is such that they are treated better here than if they were unemployed elsewhere. The changes made in the UK welfare system over the last two years were raised in this House.

I think that another reason for the decline in emigration is the widespread belief that the current unemployment situation is only a temporary set-back, mainly due to the external circumstances which I have mentioned elsewhere. When these conditions have abated, I would expect that the employment situation at home will again improve as rapidly as it had been before the Gulf crisis.

In the meantime, it is true that the sudden and steep decline in outward migration means that each year in the last two years at least an additional 15,000 persons opted to remain in Ireland. In many ways we are very glad of that. It raises the figures. I have been continually on the record of this House for the last four years as saying it is far better we provide the service, facilities, training and education to keep our young people at home than seeing them emigrate to be on the registers in other countries. In a small labour market like ours the option to remain at home, has a major impact, especially when coupled with the fact that our labour force is still growing rapidly.

The programme negotiated in the early part of this year has set out the macroeconomic strategy for the immediate future with the twin objectives of economic growth and social equity. That is what it is based on. Without growth in the economy there will be no growth in jobs. Growth in jobs is the only real solution to unemployment and emigration. Regardless of the temporary difficulties in the international trade environment, the Government are determined to press ahead with their commitments under the programme.

The basic strategy underlying the programme is simple — improving the macro-economic climate, stimulating economic growth and promoting social progress. The achievement of these objectives requires the co-operation of all the major economic and social interests in society. Social consensus has been the cornerstone of this Administration's approach to tackling the major problems which confronted us when we came into office.

The key objectives of the long term strategy in the programme are, first, a substantial increase in employment and second, a major assault on long term unemployment. These objectives will be achieved through a combination of macro-economic stability policies geared to low inflation, low interest rates and reduction of the national debt. We expect sectoral new jobs as follows: 60,000 over the three year period — 20,000 per year — in manufacturing and international services, and 15,000 over the three year period in tourism.

I want to mention some issues because I do not altogether disagree with some of the points made. Deputy Bruton was constructive. Often in Dáil debate Deputies say why we cannot do this, that or the other. At least Deputy Bruton put forward issues for debate — some of them new, he said — and we do not disagree with some of them.

Employment is the priority. Reductions in capital grants have already happened. A shift from capital grants to employment grants, marketing and other forms of support has already been undertaken. We want grants assessment on a per-job basis, capital grants paid only on achievement of job targets and accelerated capital allowances reduced to 25 per cent from April 1991 and eliminated in April 1992. Other tax provisions, such as the 10 per cent manufacturing tax rate, the BES, and section 84, have been tightened up. I have listened to Deputy Bruton's arguments and I am sure my colleagues in Industry and Commerce will give the reasons the Government made their decisions on the 10 per cent tax rate.

Looking at the growth in employment and the downturn in net emigration, it is clear that the policies being pursued by the Government with the endorsement of the social partners are basically sound and correct. We should not allow ourselves to be deflected from the recovery path by temporary difficulties or to adopt panic measures which, while affording temporary relief, could do little or nothing to tackle the structural problems of the economy in the long term. We tried that. Successive Governments tried it and failed. When the rest of the world was coming out of the recession in the last 15 years this country was always at a disadvantage and unable to move quickly to profit from this economic growth because we had undertaken temporary measures which had our finances in disaster. Surely no senior politician advocates that we try that road again.

Remedial action must accord with and complement the strategy and objectives encompassed by the programme. Any other action would be counterproductive. We are exploring a rearrangement of initiatives which will provide temporary relief while contributing to medium-term objectives. Firms have responsibility to retain their employees during short term difficulties rather than resorting to the expedient of laying off workers. Management should use slackness in demand to retrain workers, to upgrade their skills and to prepare for the pick up in business which is already apparent. Otherwise, increased demand will coincide with pressure for retraining, and we know the tensions that can lead to.

On industrial relations, it is imperative that any form of disruptive industrial action be avoided if at all possible. It is difficult enough in good times to persuade foreign companies and, indeed, Irish firms to invest in this country in the expansion and development of business as a means of creating jobs, but when we elected to shoot ourselves in the foot by industrial action with consequences completely out of proportion to the issues involved, the task of attracting investment to create jobs is rendered very difficult indeed. I will say no more about that.

We have had a period of unprecedented industrial peace in the last few years and we must keep it that way, or even improve. As Deputy Bruton said, we must concern ourselves not only with those in employment, or who are relatively well off, but with those who are socially disadvantaged and suffering deprivation of one kind or another. Those in a privileged position — that is, all of us with jobs — should do nothing to undermine the task of assisting others. We have had a recent illustration of what I mean.

There is a lesson to be learned from mistakes made by taking industrial action. If we want to develop the economy to create jobs and reduce unemployment we must avoid indulging in industrial relations hara-kiri. This imposes a major obligation on employers and on trade unions to act responsibly and to avoid inflicting serious damage on their colleagues and fellow workers. If we have learned such a lesson, it would be at least one positive outcome of recent disputes and provide for a more secure industrial relations foundations to recover the output and employment that have been lost.

On recent developments in manpower services, lest it be said we are doing nothing, FÁS now offer a very comprehensive service to the public through the "one-stop-shop" approach. Major programmes have been reviewed and targeting improved. Services are now provided in a more efficient and cost effective manner. Time will prohibit me from answering all the points raised by Deputy Bruton, but I would like to do so some other time. A large part of FÁS training is not for those who are unemployed; about 40 per cent is for people who are not on the live register — women, school leavers, people who are not eligible for social welfare and have benefit. FÁS are not there just for the long term unemployed or for those who have been unemployed for a year or two, as Deputy Bruton said.

A large part of FÁS training is external. That is the part on which I am normally criticised in this House and asked if we are getting the best value for money. To advocate, as Deputy Bruton did, that FÁS should not have a monopoly when it comes to training may have merit for discussion and debate. At times I have thought that might be something to look at, but it is a recipe for all kinds of difficulties. Difficulties arise when people analyse who the trainers are and what their credentials are. I have the pleasure and honour to serve in a Government who have analysed that aspect in recent years. Point six could be a recipe for disaster if it was to be followed through.

FÁS also operate overseas through a subsidiary company. I want to acknowledge the good work they are doing in that area alone where they cover about 40 jobs. FÁS are finalising their arrangements to implement the new apprenticeship system which is outlined in the programme. I am glad to say employers have recently indicated support for a payroll levy in certain sectors to part finance the new system. It is hoped to introduce this new system on a pilot basis later this year and in due course it should assist an additional 1,000 young people to obtain quality training. This training will carry a certification which will be readily recognised both at home and abroad.

The quality and productive capacities of our workers is a major determinant of competitiveness of our enterprise. I agree with Deputy Bruton on that. The quality of our work force depends to a large extent on their training. The primary responsibility for training those in employment rests with enterprises. Figures prepared for FÁS in 1989 showed that in the previous year 42 per cent of the 961,800 persons employed in industry and services, excluding the public sector, received training. The quality and productive capacity of our workforce is a major determinant of the competitiveness of our enterprises. I agree with Deputy Bruton on that point. The quality of our workforce depends to a large extent on their training and the primary responsibility for training those in employment rests with enterprises.

Figures prepared for FÁS in 1989 showed that in the previous year 42 per cent of the 961,800 persons employed in industry and services — excluding the public sector — received training. Only half of these received training off the job and that is a very low figure. This is not enough to help us keep up, let alone catch up, with more advanced countries. I do not deny that more work needs to be done in the training area. That is something I have been saying for some time. This is very clearly the case in comparison with the UK. Ireland seems to fall behind because of the relatively small number of large companies which in other countries play a major role in continuing vocational training.

With regard to what needs to be done to train employees — as against what is being done — FÁS-sponsored research contains the following elements: 45 per cent of employees in industry need further training; further training is required for all occupational groups; the needs vary by occupational group, and are very extensive; and management skills in Irish industry are inadequate and insufficient. We are dealing with these matters.

I know that the question of a more structured approach to training generally has been raised in the Central Review Committee recently. The possibility of moving towards the German "dual system" model — to which Deputy Bruton referred — which is enterprise driven, has been examined. There has been agreement to discuss the question further when the arrangements for the reformed apprenticeship, including funding mechanisms, have been agreed. I welcome such discussions. I believe we can build on the partnership approach which is the basis of the Programme for National Recovery and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress in further developing the Irish workforce.

Our situation on the geographical periphery of the Community will always involve costs for ourselves above that of other European countries. That is a fact of life. This places a greater requirement on us to develop those areas and key sectors where we could have a comparative advantage and develop those resources that would contribute to this process. Our workforce is such a resource. Employers must take account of the link between training, productivity and competitiveness. That is precisely what Government policies and our training policies do.

The total figure of around £3 billion from the European Communities under the Structural Funds in the period between 1989 and 1993 will result in increased employment. The funds will allow us to develop agriculture, tourism and industrial relations and human resources. It is clear we will continue to need such assistance even after 1993 if we are to address regional disadvantage in the new Europe. Meanwhile, we are working to improve the effective links between training and other development policies.

A crucial factor in achieving quality and competitiveness lies in the quality of our managers and their ability to expand and maintain enterprises. This has two aspects. First, managers should be vitally concerned about improving their own performance through appropriate development and training courses. The Galvin committee reported on that. The message is a clear but important one for Irish enterprises. Good managers make sound enterprises and good management education, training and development programmes make good managers. Poor management leads to failure and job losses. Second, managers must use their skills to increase their markets abroad and at home, to spot opportunities and to constantly monitor the market. Now is the time to review those strategies. In this breathing space managers should now be laying the foundations for a full assault on the European market as we approach 1992. I appeal to them in this debate to view the present situation not as a set back but as an opportunity to gear up for the expected recovery so as to capitalise fully in terms of market share, profitability and employment in the year ahead.

Unemployment impacts differently on different geographical areas and different groups. I agree with the comments of Members of the House about those who suffer on the periphery. A most worrying development since the start of the eighties is the increase in long term unemployment and indeed its tendency to build up local concentrations. We can trace that back to the severe economic downturn of the mid-seventies which led to a doubling of the figures and the recession in the early eighties.

The increasing numbers of new entrants to the labour market have made job-seeking a more competitive undertaking. Those who are less well able to compete for the jobs on offer find themselves being pushed down the queue of the unemployed, becoming long term unemployed. Once a person has become long term unemployed it is clearly more difficult for him or her to get a job. That is a statistical fact. Large-scale redundancies in traditional sectors and a very much reduced demand for unskilled labour due to industrial restructuring have also contributed to long term unemployment. The effects of long-term unemployment manifest themselves at various levels, economic, social, personal and also at the wider community level.

The social employment scheme is the principal manpower programme to assist the old and long term unemployed. This programme undertakes work of benefit to the local community while, at the same time it helps participants to regain a foothold in the labour market.

The experience of the long term unemployed in local blackspots has forced a shift in the perspective of policy-makers. Because of the multi-dimensional problems associated with long term unemployment, the need to combine the efforts of the various agencies concerned at local level is seen as an important element in any approach to addressing the problem. The value of an integrated approach to unemployment was also stressed in the NESC report, A Strategy for the Nineties, and was taken on board in the context of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.

In March last the Government approved the arrangements for initiating the area based response to long term unemployment which was outlined in the programme. The initiative represents a new approach in this country to tackling long term unemployment. The only other European country that has done something similar is Sweden. FÁS have examined their model extensively and have taken the good parts from it. The new strategy will focus on individual areas, using the local communities as the primary actors. It will integrate at the local level the various existing initiatives already in place. Your own area, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is one of the areas of high unemployment which will be examined. That area was chosen because it has one of the highest unemployment rates in Ireland. The new programme will involve a progression, in particular to ensure second chance education, leading to qualifications and, therefore, with greater possibility of a job. The scheme will not be compulsory.

A national team representative of the employer organisations, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, FÁS, and the Departments of Education, Social Welfare and the Taoiseach has been established to organise the project and to monitor and co-ordinate the activities of individual local companies. The national team is operating initially on a whole-time basis and is at present engaged in a series of meetings with representatives of local communities and other interests, including the unemployed, from the 12 pilot areas to hear their views on the formation of the local companies. The companies will be full companies limited by guarantee. They will comprise six people from the local community who are already involved in employment action groups, six from the statutory agencies and six representing the private sector.

It is important to point out that there are 14 million people in the European Community who are unemployed, seven million of whom are considered to be long term unemployed, we in Ireland have over 100,000 such people. We are the only country in the Community which has followed on an initiative passed during the Irish Presidency, which became part of the NESC report, A Strategy for the Nineties, and also was included in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. It was partly funded in the budget and is now Government policy. That is as good a response as anyone can expect, but whether it will work is another matter. It is a sincere effort by the private sector, by the social partners generally and by the public voluntary agencies and, most important, it includes the ordinary people on the ground who are interested in their community and who are endeavouring to stimulate investment, hope and confidence in their own community. It is deserving — as I said here recently in a previous debate of support by all the Members of this House. I am glad of the opportunity of this debate to put some of these details on the record because everyone outside this House supports this initiative and it requires our assistance.

I accept there have been increases in unemployment in recent months as measured by the live register, as there have been in every European country. I believe, however, that these increases are temporary and that the pick-up in world trade now beginning to appear will enable us, if we hold our nerve, to resume the outstanding employment growth we achieved in the period 1987-90. We can do this if we do not run away from policies and if we do not undo all the good that has been done. I have no intention of running away from that responsibility. That would be a disaster and the unemployed will suffer more than anyone else if we do not implement our excellent policies. We must do more and we must continue to work hard. Independent and international commentators say we can expect an end to the recession in the UK and in the US later this year. Expansion would also be assisted by a lowering of real interest rates internationally. That would help us greatly. My conviction is that the policies contained in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress are the right policies, and they form the basis for significant medium and long term economic and employment performance.

Deputy Bruton put forward his points constructively and calmly and I will certainly consider those which relate to my Department. I am sure my colleagues in the Department of Industry and Commerce, and other Departments, will deal with the points that relate to those Departments.

We have a motion and an amendment to it already moved. We can only move one amendment and Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan may discuss his amendment now but he cannot formally move it.

The matter can be decided when the vote is being taken.

The Deputy may move his amendment then.

My amendment states:

To delete all words after "establishment of" and substitute the following:

"an Economic and Social Affairs Committee of the Oireachtas, to, inter alia:

(1) carry out a full and thorough review of industrial policy, with a view to identifying all areas in which policy measures are failing to produce investment and jobs, and the policy measures necessary to promote the growth and development of indigenous industry;

(2) ensure that all the implications of the Single European Market are fully assessed, and all policy measures necessary to maximise the benefits of a more integrated Europe, including the demand that economic and monetary union must be accompanied by new measures to promote social cohesion and the establishment of an additional fund to achieve social and regional objectives;

(3) in conjunction with the Government and the social partners, to develop a positive action programme of job placement for the long term unemployed as an integral part of the area-based pilot schemes announced in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress;

(4) and having regard to the latest findings that Ireland has a more serious problem of urban poverty than most of the rest of Europe, to develop a strategic plan to address this crisis through fundamental reforms of our taxation and social welfare systems;

(5) examine the potential for extending job-sharing and worksharing, contributing to a reduction in unemployment, through tax incentives and cash payments to employees and employers, to promote solidarity contracts between the employed and the unemployed, to achieve a more just distribution of available paid work".

Deputy Bruton talked about an eight point programme which deserves some consideration. The scrapping of the IDA grants for machines is long overdue. The emphasis has been on the provision of plant and premises to the detriment of job creation. I have yet to see any of the targets set by the IDA being achieved in any industry brought into this country. I welcome the shift in emphasis.

In relation to retraining redundant workers FÁS are doing an excellent job, but the jobs are not there. Some people who have been made redundant have done more than one FÁS course and yet have not secured jobs.

Deputy Bruton referred to getting rid of the poverty traps, something I wholeheartedly welcome. The graduated means test is particularly needed with regard to education grants. If the parent of an education grant applicant exceeds the cut-off point in any week, it is possible the student will be deprived of the whole grant. This trap should be eliminated. A contributing factor to the poverty trap has been the manner in which young unemployed people living with the parents are assessed. Their entitlement is based on parents' income. This is creating a major problem in that young unemployed people are being forced out because unemployment assistance is based on the parents' income. That is an unjust system. If we are to rid ourselves of the poverty trap that should be addressed.

Deputy Bruton placed much emphasis on education at national school level and, perhaps, there are literacy and numeracy problems at that level. A problem arises in that guidance teachers come in at second level. In many cases the children in greatest need of guidance do not go to second level and, therefore, never encounter a guidance teacher. There should be a shift in emphasis in that area.

We are producing highly skilled people from our second and third level institutions. They are among a large percentage of the people forced to emigrate. Our top performers cannot secure employment and that is a serious loss to the country.

In recent years we moved away from the traditional type of apprentice training. This left a void in the educational system which has in some way contributed to the fact that we have few indigenous engineering industries. In the past people who went through the technical school system were successful in business. They may have lacked business acumen and bookkeeping skills but they had the skills necessary to set up in business. If Deputy Bruton's points provoke a debate on this issue they are welcome. Having been a chairman of a VEC I very much regret the shift from apprenticeship training. The training we give does not provide the craftsmen we will require should there be an upturn in the economy. Present day training systems do not provide the tradesmen of the calibre we had in the past. This also contributes to the poverty trap and does not help in job creation.

Deputy Bruton said that to make it more attractive for people to go to work, the trade unions should agree to waive the Unfair Dismissals Act. That would create a minefield and I could not go along with it, not for ideological reasons but for commonsense reasons. I would discourage that approach. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has said he cannot accept my amendment——

Deputy, it is merely a technical matter. The Deputy is at liberty to discuss his amendment to his heart's content. It is just that we do not formally move a second amendment when another amendment is before the House. When the debate has concluded the Deputy, if he wishes, may formally move his amendment and have a vote on it.

I understand. As Henry Ford said, one can have any colour so long as it is black. I can discuss my motion, but I cannot move it. I will be guided by what the Chair said. I see there is some tic-tac going on between the Chair and the Minister. I am not sure whether it is tactful to interrupt, but I shall press on.

I shall not interrupt.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I feel that we in the House must be coming up to that time of the year again. I am not sure whether it could be termed as summer madness.

The Chair has no memory of the past.

Is that peculiar to your party, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

It is know as "politicus interruptus".

The Chair has no party.

I take you at your word, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I feel that we should tread warily when talking about the Unfair Dismissals Act and the wording of that legislation. The Act was introduced after much agonising and much campaigning from trade unionists down through the years. To throw it aside on the basis that jobs might be created would do a disservice to the people who are employed at present and would leave those who are unemployed open to exploitation. For that reason I have to reject the idea out of hand.

Deputy Bruton spoke on section 6 of his proposal regarding home-based employment. The greatest abuse in all employment throughout the world has been in home-based employment. That has been experienced first hand in Ireland on farms and in family businesses. The issue came up earlier in the year on the introduction of employment legislation. Those who work at home have been exploited much more than those working in factories or in offices, and, again, that is something I deplore.

The seventh suggestion was to encourage the taking up of part-time work as a passport to full-time employment. In a perfect society, when plenty of jobs are available, such a suggestion would be welcomed, but experience has shown people to be exploited. In particular I think of the supermarket chains, who are the greatest exploiters in this regard. Employees have worked for major supermarkets for five or 10 years on a part-time basis yet have failed to secure full-time employment. It has been impossible to come to grips with that problem. The Minister made an attempt to come to grips with the problem when introducing legislation this year in relation to part-time workers. I regret to say that some of the predictions I made during that debate have already come to pass in as much as employers have now reduced the threshold. I should certainly discourage any such suggestion unless there were inbuilt safeguards. I take it from the Minister that he will take on board some of Deputy Bruton's proposals.

The eighth point in Deputy Bruton's submission refers to the income tax system. It is well known that the income tax system is the greatest disincentive for employers to take people on. Something has to be done about that. The whole taxation system is so penal that some employers find it difficult to give out a bonus to their workers at Christmas time because £50 or £60 bonus would mean a possible tax commitment at the same level.

I should comment on one omission. It may seem that I am putting more emphasis on what Deputy Bruton said than on what the Minister said. In all fairness, I think the Minister was defending the status quo.

There are alliances——

When I see that Deputy abroad I have to seriously consider the other side of the argument. The Deputy should tread warily there. I do not mean to be offensive, but——

Cork fights back again.

I am addressing the motion before the House.

Deputy Martin, reference to the waters of the Lee is not appropriate to the Liffey.

The Deputy is waiting to be chosen.

I do not think he will get sufficient backing.

Deputy Dennehy has cornered the market, but we wish the Deputy well in his endeavours.

Deputy Bruton was right on the whole question, and perhaps Deputy Martin would agree that a definite shift of alliance took place.

Deputy Bruton was very critical of the Government's performance in the past four years, but for the first two years, from 1987 to 1989, any measures introduced by the former Fianna Fáil Government, as distinct from the present Coalition Government, were made with the support of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Bruton's party. In that period there was an increase in the number unemployed and an increase in emigration. Were it not for the fact that there was a strategy, then it would not have been possible for the Government to embark on the kind of campaign that they did. The Government introduced a system of what I would call "industrial euthanasia", in which public sector jobs in particular——

It was because of your tax.

Deputy Ahern, I know that Deputy O'Sullivan can cope with interruptions, but I am not going to allow them.

Can you cope with Deputy Ahern, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that is what I should like to know? If you cannot, I shall have to take Deputy Ahern in hand myself.

The reason I interrupted Deputy O'Sullivan, was that I thought you were about to respond to the temptation.

Being a fallible human being, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I ask that you allow me to go ahead.

The Deputy should hold his patience.

It is difficult; time is running out.

During that period it would not have been possible to introduce job sharing in the public sector were it not for the support given to the previous Government. In the past the public sector has been the catalyst for job creation but from 1987 to 1989 the wholesale shedding of jobs occurred. I think in particular of Cork, where more than 500 jobs were shed. There are still jobs under threat in the public sector — in Irish Steel, Aer Lingus, Telecom Éireann and An Post. In the creation of jobs the first requirement is to ensure the retention of existing jobs. We have to consolidate our position, hold our ground. The time has come to say "Stop". We have to say that we do not want any viability plan for An Post or any further cutbacks in RTE and that we will defend the jobs in Irish Steel. If we could achieve that then we would have started fighting back. Unless we have faith in ourselves and in our indigenous industries, there is no way we can whip the unemployment problem. With our total dependance on multinationals in the past few years we have lost faith in ourselves and some self respect. We must ensure that no further jobs are sold off by way of redundancy — in particular, public sector redundancy. Public sector services have been trimmed to such a degree that the areas of health and local government in particular cannot cope with the demand.

The Minister should indicate before the debate is over that he will take the first step. He did say that he would not run away from the problem. I welcome that statement, but I also say at this stage——

Like yourself in Government in 1987.

I never cease to wonder about any party having the likes of Deputy Ahern elected to the House. He is totally committed to making interruptions.

Debate adjourned.
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