Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 May 1991

Vol. 409 No. 3

University of Limerick (Dissolution of Thomond College) Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Mr. Tunney

The time constraints on me and the fact that I have decided to break my vow of silence means that at most I can address the House for ten minutes. I am encouraged to do so because earlier I heard the Minister, and others, express their satisfaction and optimism that, in the matter of the humanities, the new proposal would cater adequately for what we all desire. It is appropriate that we should on occasions like this present ourselves with the question, what is education, and, having endeavoured to get the answer, to ask, what is the modern perception of it?

Unfortunately, as I see it in the times in which we live it is no longer accepted as the pursuit of a healthy mind and body. That definition will be given but the practitioners of education do not seem to honour what they say. One could demonstrate that what is education is today equated with technology, capitalism and jobs. If that is so the sooner we change it the better because it is not about those. People talk about the need to make education relevant and then try to establish that education is about jobs but it is not. When they proceed to try to establish that there is not any room for the humanities that is when they convolute themselves and do a disservice to education.

On study we will find that the only form of education that is eternally relevant is to be found in the humanities — the pursuit or exercise of the mind and body into how best we can fulfil our position in the short journey we have through this life. People may say that Deputy Tunney is being over-idealistic but I am not. If it is not that and if we take that away what will people have to live for and what will we put in its place?

Man, as we know, is an extraordinary creature. Man has changed dramatically his environs and everything around them. He has developed his mind to the point where, technologically speaking, he can perform miracles but, on the other hand man today is as feeble as he was in the time of Aristotle, Plato or Seneca. If one reads any of those great philosophers one will find that what they said then is as applicable to the times in which we live because whatever is that undiscovered formula for how we should behave and get whatever enjoyment and satisfaction that is lasting in this life it has escaped man to date. My word of warning is that whatever is in it is in the retention of the idealistic definition of education.

Education, as I said today, is the new capitalism — if I have it, I will charge plenty for it. Most of our people are endowed with the same intellect and capacity but, because of an unfortunate selectivity which obtains, only a few get by having obtained what is called an educational qualification at the expense and exclusion of others. I tell my sons and daughters and every student in university today that he or she would not be there except for the fact that there are people in the community who are prepared to pay nine-tenths of what it costs to keep them there and that if they had any sense of fair play and justice they would return to those people some form of gratitude. What do they do having got this qualification at the expense of others? They proceed to impose on those people oft times charges which they are not able to pay.

Earlier we dealt with a Bill dealing with matters of health. That debate centred on the consultants, great people, who would not be there except for the fact that the rest of the community were prepared to pay for their education. We find that they will withhold the service they could give if the person is not in a position to pay for it. If that is education then the sooner we jettison it the better because it is not education. Again, I am heartened by the fact that the Minister has taken the attitude that the humanities are eternally relevant. The only hope for man today lies in the pursuit or exercise of the mind and the body to the state where one can be at peace with what one has; if it is adversity that one will understand adversity and live with it in the understanding and contemplation that adversity is not eternal and that the light will follow the darkness. If we take education as the preparation of someone in some specialised area of technology we are doing to him or her a grave disservice and, more especially, to that great discipline called education.

I regret that because of the time constraints on me I cannot elaborate but I would like to make one further point. I agree with everything Deputy Kemmy, a man for whom I have great admiration, said except in one instance. He talked about the extension of Seanad representation to the new university as if that would be worthwhile and justifiable. I have to disagree with him, especially in the matter of his proven interest in what is called socialism and justice. I want no representation for third level in the Seanad. They are well able to look after themselves.

Why should I as a graduate of UCD at election time have one vote for the Dáil and another for somebody to represent me in the Seanad when simultaneously that huge body of people which made the education possible — I am talking about the unemployed, the people who never went beyond primary certificate, intermediate certificate or leaving certificate, who have as much intelligence and as high an IQ as I have and whose needs are greater than mine — do not have the right to have their representative in the Seanad? I have made this point before and I will continue to advocate it. The Seanad is supposed to represent vocational interests so what justification is there in the wide earthly world for giving the university graduates, people who are well able to articulate their ideas and lobby and press for what they want, a seat in the Seanad merely because of the fact that they are graduates, people who owe so much to the community already? Why should we give them an additional favour while at the same time excluding the babble, the inarticulate lobby of the unemployed and those who have hitherto been excluded because they are poor materially, but not intellectually?

Perhaps the debate on the present legislation is not the time to seek to debate what education is about. However, let us avail of this opportunity to sound a word of warning — if we are to continue accepting what is presented to us as education, we are accepting a system, especially at university level, where everything is satisfactory for the people in the institution, the people who are of the gravy train but who, I think, have not fulfilled their obligations. They have missed identifying and articulating what education is and how it affects our lives. It is the ingredient without which life is the poorer for all those we presume to serve.

Although it is a small audience I enjoy I am happy that in the course of my short contribution nobody has attempted to interrupt me or to take issue with me. That may be, a Cheann Comhairle, that they appreciate the rules of the House and know that interruptions are out of order, but I am presumptuous enough to hope that there is an acceptance of the fact that the time has come to say that grave injustices have taken place under what people for their own purposes call education. Licence is given to the people who have it because they can quote it and because they can make the so-called uneducated feel inferior. I see evidence around me of real education but there is greater evidence of it among the so-called uneducated because these are the people who apply themselves day in and day out to the improvement of their neighbours welfare. The so-called uneducated, too, are the ones who practice unselfishness and, for example, take young boys and girls out in the pursuit of physical education. The so-called uneducated also are the prime movers in all worthwhile community work. I am afraid I detect a very definite absence of the so-called educated, the academic and professional people doing anything other than what he or she is paid for. If that is what education is, it is time it were changed.

Our very special Minister has demonstrated to date that in the matter of all aspects of education her view is based on education and not necessarily on imitating other people. That is why I am heartened by the Minister singling out in her introductory speech that in the new University of Limerick there will be regard for real education.

My final point, and I do not like naming any one here, is that while my good colleague, Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla, could quote Dr. Edward Walsh's statement, from what I know Dr. Walsh probably made the statement in the light of the prevailing times in education and because, if he was going to stay in the race, he could not hope to enjoy the necessary funding. One may ask if he has changed his mind since then. I have not read that he has said so but from what I know and my acceptance of him as a real educationalist, if the responsibility is put on him and if he is reminded, as the Minister has reminded us that in the new University of Limerick real education is to be foremost and everything else is to be a subsidiary consideration, it will be so.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I welcome this Bill as I believe it represents a major step forward in meeting the needs of third level education. With the merger of Thomond College with the University of Limerick, we will have a stronger and more vibrant third level sector in the south west. Therefore I welcome with much enthusiasm the conferring of university status on Thomond College.

I am sure we will all agree that the people of Limerick and the surrounding areas have campaigned long and hard for a university in their city. They have succeeded and must be congratulated on that. They will welcome wholeheartedly this proposal. It is an important step in third level education not only in Limerick but nationally. Both colleges are on the same campus and it is logical both educationally and otherwise that they would have the same status. I hope that the Minister's interests in promoting the status of the colleges in the south west will extend to my own county where we are campaigning vigorously and with much endeavour for a third level institution that will specialise in rural development. I am hopeful that when the Minister has Limerick sorted out she will turn her attention to Thurles and give us the go ahead for a rural and business development institute. We believe that the Minister is with us and we hope that the resources will be available so that the Minister can give us the important word to go ahead. I can assure the Minister that if she gives us the go ahead for a rural and business institute in Thurles she will one day find herself conferring the status of a university on it.

Thomond College is now being amalgamated with the University of Limerick and is worthy of much admiration and congratulation. Limerick University developed in the seventies. During its growth the university has evolved as a technology base while combining, perhaps to a lesser degree, the humanities. It comprises three colleges, business, engineering and science, and the humanities. Its programmes of teaching and research are designed to meet the demands of graduates and postgraduates, providing expertise that is needed for Ireland's economic and social development within the European Community. Programmes are studied to degree, master, doctorate and post-doctorate levels and they are orientated to the needs of business, industry and the professions. It is now Ireland's leading centre for engineering and business studies and it is continuing a 20-year programme of development.

The University of Limerick introduced the concept of co-operative education in Ireland. This concept was first developed in the United States in 1906 and it involves the placement of students in employment in areas relevant to their academic interests as an integral part of their educational programme. Classroom theory and laboratory practice are thus integrated in real working conditions. Co-operative education is based on the principle that well educated, mature individuals will develop more effectively through an educational experience which at periods places them outside their university environment. At Limerick the curriculum offers an opportunity for placement for nine to 12 months. This is a welcome innovation in university life. For too long universities were places where we spent time in classrooms and there was little or no work practice. That is what many of us experienced in the old system. Students who emerge today have confidence gained from practical experience in the workplace. Through the existing programmes in Limerick University an established network of employers has become involved in the educational process and they have an opportunity to work with groups of undergraduates and to interact with faculty members. Many graduates, as a result of the mingling of theory and work practice, seek careers in industry and commerce and many start their own businesses.

The progress and achievements of Limerick University can be seen each month in a document which they circulate. Every month there is an innovation and much of the credit must go to Dr. Walsh, whom I greatly admire as an innovator and a creator. The March document refers to a new £14 million research and cultural initiative and it states that post-graduate education and research capabilities will be increased threefold with the provision of a new 10,000 square metre facility on which work is to start this year. Funds are being raised by the University of Limerick Foundation. That is real initiative and enterprise. Another document refers to EC funding for ceramic research and the establishment of new law scholarships. These are all creative initiatives. Another document announces the introduction of a university-industry partnership. It is an exciting time for Limerick University, which is availing of every opportunity to meet the challenges of the future and to march ahead.

Into this rich pasture, Thomond will bring its own strengths and achievements. In 1973 it opened its doors to the National College of Physical Education. Hitherto students had the choice of two female colleges in Dublin and male students had to resort to Britain. Its inception filled a vacuum that urgently needed attention and since 1973 it has produced excellent graduates, not only in the sport and leisure area but also in the humanities. It is a pity that past graduates did not attend a college of university status.

The merger, as provided, will contribute greatly to the advancement of the University of Limerick, and Thomond will bring to the university a valuable expertise in teacher education. They have trained teachers to the highest possible standards and therefore it is important that this work will continue and remain intact in the new institutional development. I am hopeful, and I consider it most important, that this new institution will not only provide for the training and education of teachers but that they will also provide for in-service education and training, and for research in different areas related to the college.

The motto of Thomond College, "The Best in the World", must continue. I compliment the college on ensuring that their graduates are not only qualified in the physical education area but also in various subjects such as Irish, English and any of the arts. This has helped graduates to play an even greater role in the entire school curriculum. It is good for students to be able to change from games and exercise, etc. to studying Irish, French or English with the PE teacher. That is a healthy combination and can lead to more effective and worthwhile communication in the relationship between teachers and students.

I regret, however, that many of the graduates are unable to utilise fully their expertise due to a shortage of resources and facilities in our schools. It is a contradiction in our education system that we produce graduates of such high expertise and then find that this expertise cannot be utilised due to the shortage of facilities.

I accept that we live in times of scarcity but nevertheless I believe it to be far more prudent to provide the facilities that we spent money on educating our graduates to use. Many PE teachers are frustrated because they cannot implement and utilise their training and expertise in our schools.

I consider it an enormous lack in our primary schools and national schools that they are unable to avail of PE teachers. Children at this age are so enthusiastic about sport and training. It is regrettable that we cannot have qualified PE teachers, even on a shared basis, in our national and primary schools. I hope some improvement can be made, but I must congratulate the teachers in our schools, who do a fantastic job in this regard, without the adequate training or facilities.

National school teachers give our children a good attitude to sports. Many of them organise matches and make transport arrangements etc. outside school hours and at weekends. Their contribution must be acknowledged. Without it I doubt if sport would be such a valuable asset in our lifestyle. We develop in our children at a tender age a real love of sport. The method by which this is done in our national schools is a healthy one and children develop an enormous love for our native and other games.

It is right to congratulate the GAA on the role they play in this regard. Representatives of the GAA go to schools once a week to give the children skills in the games, and this, in turn, gives the children great enthusiasm for the games. Although we cannot provide qualified PE teachers in our schools nationally, we are lucky that this job is being well done by the teachers and by the GAA.

Thomond College's outstanding feature is its standard in the training of specialist post-primary teachers. It is important that all the elements of this teacher training be maintained in the new university. In Thomond there is a well structured training regime. Teacher graduates, with a high level of knowledge of their subjects, are noted for their confidence and eagerness to face their lifetime profession. Thomond has in place the basic structure for training any teacher, and Limerick University will benefit from this. It would be madness to allow any of the present standards or methods to be undermined by this amalgamation. We cannot afford to train our teachers badly because on their shoulders rests the responsibility for future generations. Money invested in education is a sound investment for the future.

This merger will result in greater emphasis on the humanities in the new University of Limerick and this will benefit students of all the sciences.

I am glad the Bill contains a section relating to the preservation and promotion of Irish language and culture. I enthusiastically support this section and I agree with my colleague, Deputy Higgins, who believes that the promotion of Irish culture and language should be a clear role for this new university.

I hope this Bill will result in more places and easier access to third level education. Our enthusiasm and our hope for the new University of Limerick will be diminished if there are not more places and better access. Many of the students who are about to sit their leaving certificate next week have to worry not only about achieving the academic standard but about whether they can afford to go to third level education. Unfortunately it is at this point that their hopes and dreams might fade. Too few of our students are eligible for the higher education grant. Out of 37,500 students almost 24,000 receive no grant aid whatsoever; 10,000 receive a full higher education grant and 3,500 receive a partial grant. That still leaves 24,000 students with no grant for maintenance or fees. It would be a pity if any of our universities could not have the students who are most suitable to that type of education merely because they cannot afford to go. Something will have to be done as a matter of urgency to rectify the injustices of the higher education grants system. As a start we will have to accept that the income thresholds are far too low.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to this legislation. I know we made reference to the Seanad and to education generally but it would be stretching it a bit far if we were to use this as a basis for making a case for education grants. Beidh lá eile don díospóireacht sin.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I have to differ with you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Elections to the Seanad are far less relevant than access to the new University of Limerick. I am deeply interested in this university which is in the county next to mine. I am interested in having as many good, qualified graduates as we can, but we certainly will not have them unless we provide the opportunities and, most important, the State support to help those who cannot, under the present system, receive higher education grants. It is demoralising to meet students who attained the academic standards but who are unable to accept their place in the HEA colleges for lack of finance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy. It is really not in order to pursue that matter. Again, one would defend the situation in regard to university representation in the Seanad in so far as Limerick is now a university. A case could be made there but it was not made at any great length. However, on Second Stage we aim at criticising or commending what is in the Bill or what could be in it. Surely the Deputy could not argue that provision can be made in this legislation to extend university entrance which is governed by a matter that is not provided for in this legislation. A passing reference is in order but not development of the point because it is really not relevant to this legislation.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I am so enthusiastic about it that I find myself going into detail about it. I feel very strongly about it. It is the very basis for the development of our universities. If the students who are most suited to the course cannot gain entry to our new university in Limerick or any other university, then we will not achieve what we expect from our third level education colleges.

I still think it is prudent to urge the Minister to reconsider the higher education grant system as it stands. I think this is an occasion when we could rightly touch on an area of education that is most important. I feel confident that the Minister will have no objection to my mentioning the higher education grant——

Mrs. O'Rourke

I am not the arbiter of this.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not the Minister who decides what is appropriate. It is not the Minister who decides on the extent of somebody's enthusiasm. Unfortunately it is what is written down in the Green Book.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I still argue that this is far more relevant than the voting rights of graduates. Having taught in a post-primary school I am far more interested in students getting into colleges than in their having the right to vote for the Seanad when they get out of college.

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Ceann Comhairle did not want them to vote either.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

It is time we got back to basics. It is far more relevant for parents and public representatives to worry about access to universities and not about whether they will have a vote in the Seanad elections.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Ahearn, gach duine agus a chiall féin aige.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): You would have it said while you are arguing about it.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

I sincerely hope that more places and easier access to third level education will follow this Bill.

In conclusion, I wish to compliment the National Council for Education Awards on the development of Thomond College to the level it is at today. This Bill is an acknowledgement of the excellent standards achieved and I wish the college continued success in its merger with the University of Limerick.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): The Minister has outlined the purpose of the Bill: first, to dissolve Thomond College, second, to transfer the teacher training function from the college to the university and, third, to transfer the staff, the property rights and liabilities of the college to the university.

It must always be a sad occasion when a Bill is brought in to dissolve an institution, even though it is an institution which has a very short history in comparison with other academic institutions in the country. I compliment the staff of Thomond College, particularly Mr. Jim Christian of the senior staff who set up the college and administered it in the first instance. More recent staff have arrived who have no less a commitment to the college than their predecessors had.

It is a pity the college cannot remain as a separate institution, but I agree with the Minister. The enrolment is such now that it has gone from a maximum of about 1,100 down to something in excess of 300. I understand the Minister keeps the figures. When we project the requirements of PE teachers, metalwork teachers, woodwork teachers and rural science teachers it is no longer viable to have a separate college of education in Limerick simply involved in the education and training of teachers in this category.

At a time when the institution has declining numbers it is fortunate to be sharing a campus with the University of Limerick. It is appropriate that the dissolution enables the Minister to merge the college with the University of Limerick, an institution which has not a very long track record in contrast with other academic institutions but has a very good track record indeed and has already established an excellent reputation not only nationally but internationally.

I congratulate the Minister. On the day she brought in the Bill to give university status to the then National Institute of Higher Education in Limerick I proposed that she would merge Thomond College with the University of Limerick and she said on that occasion go mbeadh lá eile aici. Tá an lá eile tagtha anois agus ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire——

Mrs. O'Rourke

Gabhain buíochas leis an Teachta.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): ——mar do chomhlíon sí an gheallúint a thug sí ar an lá sin. When the smaller institution is merging with the larger one I hope the interests of both students and staff will be taken fully into account. There is always certain anxiety, not on the part of the students, because they come and they go when they qualify, but on the part of people with a long term commitment to Thomond College whose teaching careers are totally committed to that college. I hope their careers will not be upset in any way by the merger with the university, that full consideration will be given to the existing rights and conditions of the staff, and that their future careers will be enhanced rather than inhibited by the merger of the two institutions.

I am sure the Minister is aware that the students who are graduating this year would like very much to graduate with degrees from the University of Limerick. I presume the Bill will be passed through the Seanad and signed by the President in time to allow the university to graduate this year's crop of Thomond College graduates with University of Limerick degrees rather than the degrees they would be in receipt of if this Bill did not go through.

I would like the Minister also to take an interest in the future of a certain category of students there. She is very well aware that as the number of trainee teachers declined Thomond College was looking around to see what other appropriate functions it could perform. It started a diploma in equestrian studies. The Minister has been silent on the future of the equestrian studies course. Can this be incorporated into the University of Limerick and at some stage achieve full degree status? When the NIHE was first set up it had a dual qualification system whereby people in the first instance could get diplomas and other students could get degrees. Now it deals only in degrees. What will be the position of the course in equestrian studies now the college is to merge with the University of Limerick? It is a very valid course with our strong reputation all over the world for being a great source of horseflesh. Young people who are interested in equestrian studies should be accommodated. Even though they are a very small group, when the merger takes place their rights and the status of the course should be taken into account.

It is fortunate the college is merging with the University of Limerick because that is a very forward looking institution. I would like to compliment the president of that institution, Dr. Edward Walsh, who has been such a far-seeing educationalist. What he did in the early years was innovative in this country. It is no longer so innovative because the other institutions, colleges and universities are taking many of the new ideas on board. It is no longer the unique institution it was in the seventies, not because it has diverged from its unique path but because some of the traditional universities have come on line as well. I suppose one of its unique ventures was its scheme in co-operative education where students on four-year degree courses spent two periods of six months at intervals in appropriate work experience either nationally or internationally. This has been a great innovation and the record of students in getting jobs subsequently underlines the merits of this form of education where one can move easily from the academic halls to the world of work.

The college is strong as a college of business and of engineering and science but it also has a significant humanities faculty where a degree in European studies is granted to graduates who complete that course. I think some of the physical education student teachers would be appropriately integrated here. Of course, those involved in metalwork and woodwork will fit easily enough into the general scope of the engineering schools within the university.

I would like the Minister to pay particular attention in the future to teacher training. The four elected Members in the House at the moment have teaching backgrounds. I was in St. Patrick's Training College, Drumcondra, and subsequently took the Higher Diploma in Education in UCD and I have seen the two sides of it but it has changed dramatically since my time. There is now and will be for the foreseeable future a lesser number of teachers required than there used to be. Birth rates have fallen and that already has made its impact felt very much in the primary teaching colleges, and we can see how the numbers have declined in Thomond College. It is appropriate at a very early stage to focus on the quality of the teaching force which is now in the schools. Whatever we say about laboratories, facilities or plant and machinery, when you come to education the quality of education depends on the quality of the teaching staff. It will not be possible to maintain the very high quality we have had in schools if the staff are progressively getting older, becoming burned out, undergoing all the stress we know about in teaching, and if there is not a blend of younger teachers coming on stream.

The Minister will have to examine how, with declining birth rates she can ensure that the flow of new blood still comes from the colleges of education and the universities into our schools at all levels. She must consider how she can on the one hand absorb teachers on the panel and at the same time make openings for new teachers. I think the answer is self-evident. There has to be a major early retirement scheme for the teaching profession in both primary and secondary schools for two reasons: first, in the interests of those teachers who are totally overstressed and on the fringe of burnout at present in our schools and colleges; this is not only in the interests of the teachers and their profession but in the interests of the pupils who sit in front of them day after day. Second, the opportunities have to be made for the young teachers who come through. Let us look at the young student teachers in the training colleges, Mary Immaculate College — Carysfort no longer — St. Patrick's, Drumcondra or Thomond College or any of the colleges of education, and at the Higher Diploma in Education courses in the universities. It is feasible no longer to tell young people at 19 or 20 years of age that they are going to be trained only for a career which will allow them to spend 40 years in a classroom. That day is gone.

I ask the Minister to initiate discussions with the authorities in the training colleges and those in charge of the higher diploma in education courses to see if it is possible to organise a course in, for example, Thomond College or Mary Immaculate College, where pedagogics would be one very strong element, but the qualification would not be solely directed to teaching and the other parts of the qualification would have a market value independent of teaching. I cannot see why a person in the new University of Limerick cannot follow a business course and at the same time be qualified in physical education. They should be able — to use the American expression — to major in physical education and have the minor option of pursuing a business degree. I believe future education will be along those lines.

As I have said, I am a great admirer of the university in my city of Limerick. Deputy Tunney stressed the importance of the humanities. He was absolutely right. When unemployment has reached an all time high and the real rate of unemployment is in excess of 30 per cent, if we include those who have emigrated over the past four years, there is a danger that everything will be measured by the yardstick of jobs. This might reduce the quality of education in our universities. I should like the humanities school in the University of Limerick to be strengthened and I hope the college will endeavour to do that. I also hope the inclusion of Thomond College in the university will also strengthen it.

I want to make a final point on a remark made by Deputy Tunney. There is no valid reason certain universities should have a vote in Seanad elections while other universities do not. That is untenable. The Seanad franchise should either be abolished or, alternatively, all third level institutions should be given equal rights. I recently went to the trouble of looking at the legislation and I understand that one can go forward as a candidate on the university panel even if one does not have a degree. The disqualification does not rest on the candidate who seeks a seat in the Seanad on the university panel; the disqualification is on the voter. One must be a graduate of one of our traditional universities before one can vote. I cannot see any valid reason for ruling out students of the University of Limerick, the new Dublin City University or regional technical colleges from voting in Seanad elections. This creates a division between students in higher education which is not sustainable in the last ten years of the 20th century. This anomaly needs to be addressed.

I should like to again thank the Minister for introducing this important legislation. I am glad she was able to meet the deadline and bring it in before the summer recess. I wish the enhanced University of Limerick which will include Thomond College, every success. I hope it goes from strength to strength. Even though this is a new college, it is already making its mark. It is now spoken of internationally in the same breath as the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Georgia Tech. I hope it not only continues to receive that level of approval but that it will have an enhanced humanities school on its campus also.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá sé soiléir go raibh gá leis an mBille seo ón lá a búnaíodh Coláiste Thuamhumhan. Sílim gur chóir go mbeadh an stádas céanna ag gach múinteoir sa tír agus tá an tuairim ann go bhfuil stádas faoi leith ag gach múinteoir go bhfuil céim ollscoile acu. Go minic, sílim go gceapann tuismitheoirí mura bhfuil céim ag duine nach bhfuil siad in a mhúinteoirí cearta.

This Bill will consolidate the view that non-academic subjects are very important. When I was preparing for this debate, I could not but give myself credit in this regard. When I gave my pupils their summer tests — I did this long before it became popular — I always told them that those who did not end up in the first ten could some day pull up beside me in a Mercedes and offer me a lift while those in the first ten might finish up looking for a lift. We should never emphasise the importance of academic subjects over practical subjects, especially in this day and age when people have to earn their living in a different way to previous generations. Before the introduction of free education people who had their leaving certificate were guaranteed a job. I welcome this Bill which will amalgamate Thomond College and the new University of Limerick. I believe this move is welcomed by everyone.

Section 10 provides that the university shall have due regard to the preservation and promotion of the Irish language and culture. This is an important provision. The promotion of the Irish language and culture should be part and parcel of any third level college, whether in regard to academic or practical subjects.

I hope the Bill will give students who are seeking places in third level colleges an opportunity to gain such places and enable them to concentrate more on nonacademic subjects. As anyone who has taught in a classroom knows, some pupils who are not good at academic subjects have some marvellous hidden talents. It is great that the Lord has so ordained it that people who are not good at calculating arithmetic can make beautiful things with their hands, paint, etc. How often have we heard wives complaining that their husbands who have university degrees would wreck the house by hammering a nail in a wall to hang a picture?

I am aware that the Minister is waiting to reply to the debate. I could say a lot more about third level education but because of what has been said by previous speakers, I will conclude and give the Minister an opportunity to reply to the comments made. I welcome this Bill and I hope it will not be long before the regional college in Carlow is given university status also.

Minister for Education (Mrs. O'Rourke)

I should like to thank those who contributed to the debate — Deputy Jim Higgins, the Fine Gael spokesperson on Education, Deputy Jim Kemmy from Limerick, the Labour Party spokesperson on Education, Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla, The Workers' Party spokesperson on Education, Deputy Jim Tunney who, as usual, spoke with such style, Deputy Therese Ahearn, Fine Gael junior spokesperson on Education, Deputy Michael Noonan, who also comes from Limerick and Deputy John Browne who spoke with his usual wit. It falls to me to be pedantic and to reply to the nuts and bolts of the points raised. I should again like to thank the seven speakers who contributed to the debate for proving that a debate on education can be most interesting, wide ranging, when it is allowed to be, discursive and enjoyable.

Deputy Higgins suggested that the academic council should be expanded. The academic council are appointed by the governing body to assist them in running the university, as is the case with all universities. Therefore, the question of expanding the academic council would be a matter solely for the governing body. I am sure the governing body will read what was said during the debate and pay attention to the points made.

Both Deputies Kemmy and Higgins referred to the governing body and said that Thomond College should have specific representation on the governing body. As I said, Thomond College will no longer exist as a legal entity. Consequently, no provision can be made in a legal document, such as an Act, to provide for its representation on the governing body. However, the staff of Thomond will become staff of the new merged college. The university staff elect four members to the governing body and that question is decided by the staff. I hope they will show due sensitivity in the matter. The Minister of the day can appoint nine members but must look, inter alia, to the extent the staff are represented. There is a certain amount of flexibility between the number which the Minister can appoint and the number which the college can appoint. I hope regard will be had to the need for representation for Thomond College. The term of office of the governing body ends in July 1991. I, or whoever is in office, will consider that matter and it will be considered also by the person nominating the staff representatives. That would be the correct procedure so that specific exposition is given to the earlier tradition.

Deputy Higgins, and other Deputies, made reference to section 10. I should like to thank them for their enthusiasm for it. Deputy Higgins referred to a drafting problem. The section will apply to the general functions of the university and not solely to teacher training. Due regard for the promotion of the Irish language and culture will extend throughout the college. I can make a ministerial order if I consider it is not being attended to. We will deal with the specified drafting question on Committee Stage.

Deputy Kemmy referred to the archaic terms of officers and servants. I do not particularly care for that term either but I have been advised by the Attorney General's office that it is legal terminology and must be used. Under the provisions of the University of Limerick Act, 1989, the Copyright Act of 1963 was extended so that a copy of every book published in Ireland would be deposited in the library. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has power to enforce the provision and it is up to him to look into that.

In regard to the word "dissolution" I said at the start of my contribution that I did not like it but it was the legal one put to us. Deputies Noonan and Kemmy referred to equestrian studies and I am aware that the university is anxious to introduce a degree course in it as soon as possible, hopefully in 1992.

Deputy Tunney questioned the need for Seanad representation and gave a very fine exposition — as did other Members who spoke — with regard to the philosophical basis for education and the need to frequently articulate our thoughts on the true meaning of the word education. He said also that those who have attained the highest level of education have a duty to repay it back to the wider community from whence they came. In his own inimitable fashion he outlined his thoughts on that matter.

Deputy Therese Ahearn referred to the need to consider the rural and business development institute in Thurles and said it was necessary. She put forward her point of view with regard to her constituency and paid tribute to Dr. Edward Walsh. I wish to join in that tribute by her, Deputy Higgins and other Members. She referred to the need for more sporting facilities in our primary and second level schools and went on to speak at length on access to third level. We will not go into that issue in detail now: beidh lá eile againn. The Deputy referred also to the HEA sector.

Deputy Noonan said it was sad that any Bill should seek to merge an institution but he recognised the reality, extended his congratulations and asked that the existing conditions of the staff be examined and that the students leaving in June be graduates of Limerick. I hope on Committee Stage, and in the Seanad, that that can be accommodated.

Deputy John Browne (Carlow Kilkenny) in his usual frank fashion spoke about the varying needs of education, how one can be both academically and practically inclined and the need to further the cause of each of the various strands in education.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5 June 1991, subject to agreement with the Whips.