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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1991

Vol. 409 No. 4

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Carer's Allowance Statistics.

John Browne

Question:

9 Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will outline the number of people who are in receipt of the carer's allowance up to the end of April 1991.

John Browne

Question:

11 Mr. Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny) asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will give a breakdown county by county of the number of people receiving a carer's allowance.

Emmet Stagg

Question:

16 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of applicants for the carer's allowance as at 24 May 1991; the number that have now been accepted at the full rate of payment; the number that have been accepted at a reduced rate of payment; and the lowest rate payable to any individual.

Proinsias De Rossa

Question:

36 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Social Welfare the number of persons currently in receipt of the carer's allowance; the numbers expected to qualify when section 8 of the Social Welfare Act, 1991, comes into operation in July; if he has any plans to extend the categories covered; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 11, 16 and 36, inclusive, together.

A total of 5,386 applications for the carer's allowance have been received up to week ending 24 May 1991. The number of persons in receipt of the allowance is 3,184. Of these, 1,400 have been awarded a payment at the maximum rate and 1,784 at a reduced rate. A further 632 applications are under investigation and new claims are being received at the rate of 65 per week. Fewer than 20 people who have means in the range £44 to £46 a week are receiving the minimum payment of £3 a week.

Current claim trends indicate that about 30 per cent of applicants who have not been awarded a carer's allowance are already in receipt of another social welfare payment at a higher rate.

The scheme will be extended as provided for in section 8 of this year's Social Welfare Act to include carers of recipients of disabled person's maintenance allowance and carers of people with pensions from countries with which Ireland has a bilateral social security agreement. It is expected that a considerable number of carers will be included in the extension. The vast majority of those expected to qualify are carers of recipients of disabled person's maintenance allowance.

The question of further extending the categories covered will be considered in the light of available resources.

An appropriate breakdown of the number of carers on a health board basis will be circulated in the Official Report.

Carer's Allowances — Breakdown by Health Board

Eastern Health Board

306

Midland Health Board

245

Mid-Western Health Board

399

North-Eastern Health Board

376

North-Western Health Board

375

South-Eastern Health Board

190

Southern Health Board

440

Western Health Board

853

Given that only 1,400 people have qualified for full payment under the scheme, will the Minister agree that it is a sham, as was pointed out in this House on a number of occasions? Will he also agree that it is bad economics to force old people into institutions where it costs £300 as opposed to the payment of £50 to a carer? Will the Minister further agree that it is bad health care to force people out of their own homes and that home care is best? What the Minister is doing is a charter for the private, exploitative, so called private nursing homes. Will he take on board the proposal from the Labour Party that the payments should be non-means tested and taxable to allow payment to every carer in the country?

The scheme which I, as Minister for Social Welfare, introduced is means tested, it always was and on that basis it was passed and approved by the House.

But not on television.

I know the Deputy was not involved in the area at that stage——

The Minister should not forget that he is on television.

The Deputy's party were involved in this matter over the years and they did not introduce a carer's allowance.

That is history, deal with the present.

Deputy Stagg, stop interrupting, please.

The Minister is talking about history.

I have allocated almost £8 million to a carer's scheme for those who are dependent on social welfare, or we do not have any——

It was a substitute for what was already there.

No——

I am sorry, I have to call Deputy Browne. I apologise for not doing so earlier.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Deputy Stagg said that this scheme is a sham but, with all due respect, I am beginning to think that Question Time is a sham. The Minister is loquacious — although he has many good points — but he has only managed to answer three priority questions so far. Everybody thought this scheme had great potential as it was hyped up to the last. They thought that there would be justice for women — mná na hÉireann as they are referred to — for all their good work, but there has only been an increase of 22 people applying for it. It is almost impossible to accept that the Minister is not bluffing on the carer's allowance because he said at a previous Question Time that there had been an increased take-up. It is not justice to those who are keeping old people out of hospital; it is time the Minister dealt properly with the problem and stopped showing complete disregard for the women who are doing such great work.

If there is any farce here it is that involving the Opposition, talking like that after £8 million has been allocated. This matter was debated after the budget and in relation to the Social Welfare Act and there is not much point talking like this now.

We opposed it.

It is sleight of hand.

Of course I should like to have a lot more money and I am sure that further allocations in this area will be made in future budgets. However, there was never any secret about the fact that £8 million was allocated this year.

The Minister will not spend that the way he is going.

I take exception to the comments of my good friend, Deputy Browne, who is normally very reasonable and polite.

Like the Minister.

I was asked to give my comments on a report issued by the Combat Poverty Agency. How can I do that if I do not outline the background? If the Deputies put down long questions it is obvious that they require a reasonable answer.

Long answers.

The Deputies' questions have been answered.

A brief question from Deputy Connaughton.

The sum of £8 million for the carer's allowance is substitution money in the sense that most of it was already there for the prescribed relative's allowance.

A question, please.

Is it true that many hundreds of people had their dole entitlements cut when they applied for the carer's allowance, which means that they are now worse off?

The only way in which persons applying for a means test analysis could have their allowance cut is if their means were in excess of those credited to them earlier.

No, that is not right.

Deputy Stagg, I cannot tolerate these interruptions any longer. If you persist I shall have to ask you to leave the House. The Deputy caused a lot of disorder at Question Time today.

It is the Deputy's normal behaviour. We are used to it. Perhaps the Deputies should be given a little licence. Because of local elections coming up, they want to ride any horse they can get near.

(Interruptions.)

The carer's allowance is now in place and we intend to extend it to those on DPMA.

We heard that many times.

Why is the Deputy not interested in disabled people?

We heard all this before.

Two Deputies are offering and I want to get on to other questions as progress has been very sluggish today. I will hear a brief question from Deputy Byrne and from Deputy McCormack.

I was very patient and I did not interrupt anybody. I am amazed that, month in, month out, the Minister comes into the House with completely different sets of figures. When he first introduced the carer's allowance he anticipated an take-up of 8,000 applicants. To date the number in receipt of the full allowance is 3,184.

Questions, please.

Is the Minister aware that there are 65,000 people providing care on a voluntary basis for elderly and sick peole who ought to be cared for in hospitals at great expense to the State and is he happy that only 1,400 are in receipt of the maximum allowance of a miserable £45 per week? The Minister keeps telling us that £8 million has been made available but may I ask him where would the money have been found if the 8,000 people who had been expected to avail of the scheme had in fact qualified?

Deputies should be clear on the figures. First, the number of people providing full-time care and attention is not 65,000; it is estimated to be 25,000. Whether that estimate is accurate is another question but we should stick to that figure. This is where I think the question of "electionitis" comes in. Those figures are inaccurate.

The carers association should know; those are in their figures.

The Deputy should let me answer the question. This scheme covers those providing full-time care and attention, specified categories and those whose income comes within the prescribed limits.

Two pounds per week.

No one knew how many people were in that situation. This is a new scheme and we are beginning to see how many people are on low incomes. That is one of my functions as Minister for Social Welfare. Those on high incomes can avail of tax allowances but it is my function to cater for those on low incomes and we have made that clear from the very start.

A final question from Deputy McCormack.

I wish to ask what I consider to be a reasonable question. Will the Minister allow those without any income, irrespective of how much their spouses or others in the home earn, avail of the carer's allowance? It must be remembered that this allowance is means-tested and for each pound earned over £2 per week there is a pound for pound cut. I put it to the Minister that that is not a carer's allowance at all — I pointed out the pitfalls when the Bill went through the Dáil — and would ask him to allow the persons providing care in the home to avail of the allowance if they have no income.

That is the position.

It is not.

Please let us hear the Minister; questions have been asked.

Would the Deputy contain himself and allow me to answer?

Let us hear the Minister's reply.

That is the position except in a case involving a husband and wife; this is the position in respect of a brother and sister. For the first time under this scheme a husband is being allowed to make a claim if he provides care for his wife and vice versa. This was not allowed under the prescribed relative allowance scheme. Admittedly, they will be means tested but that was approved initially in this year's budget.

It was opposed by us.

Two pounds per week.

The Deputy should contain himself.

It is very hard to contain oneself.

This is a new scheme and certain conditions apply. We are doing two things; first, we are extending the scheme to include the carers of those in receipt of disabled person's maintenance allowance——

They will not get it either.

They are looking forward to receiving it.

That is the fourth time we have heard that today.

Many other people also looked forward to receiving it.

They waited four and a half years for The Labour Party to introduce the scheme.

The Minister is building up their expectations.

We are extending the scheme to include carers of recipients of disabled person's maintenance allowance. Second, the means test is being reviewed in the light of——

Four pounds a week.

If the Deputy contains himself——

Who is electioneering now?

I told the Deputy that before.

Let us hear the Minister's reply without interruption.

I told the Deputy that before.

I was expecting it.

The means test can now be reviewed in the light of the information gained from applicants. We are again back to the question of an election——

We are not. That is an outrageous charge.

The Minister is the only one who has mentioned the election.

The Deputy mentioned it a few moments ago.

The Minister is very sensitive about this matter. He is losing this one and his own backbenchers are after him.

I think the Deputy is on a high.

I think we might get on to another question; Question No. 12.

Let us hear the Minister's reply.

If I recall correctly, the last time I answered questions in the House I promised to undertake a review of the means test.

When will we have the results?

As soon as we can.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is the answer to Question No. 11 being circulated? I requested a breakdown of the number on a county by county basis.

It gives a breakdown of the number on a health board basis.

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