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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1991

Vol. 410 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Motor Insurance: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Durkan on Tuesday, 2 July 1991:
That Dáil Éireann deplores the cost of car insurance, particularly for young drivers, and asks the Government to adopt the Fine Gael proposals, namely to encourage better driving skills, safer roads, stricter enforcement, tighter cost controls on claims and a better deal from insurance companies.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann," and insert the following:
"concerned at the cost and availability of motor insurance, calls on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to institute a commission of inquiry into the motor insurance industry."—(Deputy Taylor).

Young drivers are in an absolutely deplorable position as far as getting motor insurance is concerned. Insurance companies pluck figures out of the air when they give a quotation to a young driver and this is widespread. During the local elections no fewer than six young people in a small area raised their predicament with me. The quotes they received for insurance cover were from £1,750 to £2,250. I know many of those young people. They are students from very good families with no claims history, no accidents and no convictions. They were given the brush off by the insurance companies and airily told to take the quote or leave it because the insurance company did not want their business. Indeed, some companies were not prepared to give a quote, which is unacceptable. Some young people may be a high risk because of convictions or whatever, but are all young people seeking a licence and insurance cover who act within the law to be treated in that way? Adults too are being priced off the road by insurance companies. We must remember that for many people a car is not a luxury, it is an absolute necessity. It is a requirement for their livelihood particularly if they live in rural areas where the public transport system has been run down by the Government and goes nowhere towards meeting the needs of them and their families.

We often wonder why there are so many non-insured drivers. Part of the reason is that the insurance companies, with the aid and connivance of the Government, pitch their premiums so high that many people are priced off the road, they cannot afford it. Let us consider the position of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and his Department, on this issue. The Minister, in reply to a parliamentary question in December, said, and he repeated the same sentiments yesterday, that his:

... main and indeed statutory authority as the insurance supervisory authority, is to ensure that insurance companies meet their statutory reserve and solvency requirements. In this regard I must respect the right of insurers to accept or reject risks in the light of their underwriting experience. There is no legal obligation on any insurer to quote in respect of any risk or to quote in any particular manner or at any particular premium and I cannot compel them to do so. I am not responsible for the day to day operations of insurers or the exercise of business acumen on their behalf.

That sums up the attitude of the Government to the whole insurance industry. The Government do not want any responsibility for ensuring that the insurance industry operate fairly and in the interests of the community and not just for their own profit margins.

It must be remembered that the Government make it compulsory for everyone who drives a car to have third party insurance cover at least. There is an obvious dichotomy here. If motor insurance is compulsory, as it ought to be, the Government cannot wash their hands of a situation where motor insurance is not accessible to some people and not affordable by many other people who need a car for their livelihood.

The first issue that must be addressed is the extent to which the Government are prepared to get involved in the effective control of the industry. When the Government bring in rules and say, rightly, that insurance cover is compulsory they cannot say, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, it is a matter for individual insurance companies to decide who they will insure and at what premium. That is not good enough. As I said last night, and it bears repeating, insurance companies are profit making organisations, they do not operate in the interest of serving the public and they do not purport to do so. They are not an arm of Government. They are a business and they aim to make as much profit as they can and pay a dividend to their shareholders. They have to be controlled by the Government.

The Government say that a citizen must have insurance cover and the profit-making insurance companies are the only companies who can provide cover but the Government must control them. However, there is not anything like the degree of control there should be. I know there is an arrangement under which a person who can prove he cannot get a quote from five insurance companies can make an application through the Minister for Industry and Commerce to a special committee representative of the insurance industry to get a quote. That is totaly unacceptable as consumers are not represented on that committee. It is not an independent body and is made up of insurers. Many people claim, and I suspect they are right, that they are treated very unfairly, that they do not get a fair or just hearing and that they are given short shrift by the insurance companies.

Insurance companies adopt the attitude they have all the business they want, do not need certain categories and the person who gets a quotation for £2,000 or £3,000 for motor insurance can take it or leave it. When people go to other insurance companies they are asked on a form whether they have been refused insurance cover by another company and if they answer truthfully "yes", they will not be considered, their application will be thrown out doubly quick. Their position then becomes desperate. Many people young and not so young, are forced into breaking the law by driving without insurance. What are the Government doing about this? Absolutely nothing. They put forward the argument for private enterprise. The Minister tells us insurance companies are not obliged to take on any insurance risk, that it is not for him to say whether the figure they quote is fair and reasonable. It is his obligation and he should ensure that citizens get a fair crack where insurance is concerned. Most important of all, we must have an independent appeals procedure. If a citizen feels he is not given a fair response from an insurance company when he looks for insurance for his car, whether it is turned down altogether or offered insurance at such a prohibitive premium that he cannot afford to take it out, there must be an appeals procedure. I am calling for, for want of a better description, an insurance ombudsman.

If the Government were concerned they would set up an independent person, and not a representative of the insurance industry, like the Ombudsman to hear complaints and investigate them. That person should have the power to decide whether a quotation was fair and to direct the insurance company to examine each case and, if necessary, to provide a policy for a person if it is considered fair and reasonable to do so. There is no appeal. The insurance companies do their own thing in their own way, motivated very often by pettiness and by profit and greed in the interests of their shareholders, not in the interests of the public at large. The insurance companies are the greatest whingers in God's creation. No matter what one does for them, they are never satisfied. They wanted juries abolished, so we abolished them. Were they satisfied? No. They claim they are still making losses here and losses there. Perhaps we should not regard their so-called losses as Gospel truth. We all know that bookkeeping and accountancy arrangements can be "readied up" in a variety of ways. They come up with loss figures so that they can come nagging and whingeing to the Minister seeking increases in premiums.

The insurers are the wealthiest and most powerful of companies. Look at their buildings and places in O'Connell Street, Dawson Street and Henry Street. The are doing very nicely, thank you. Their constant whingeing cuts no ice with me and should not cut any ice with the Minister. They complain about the lawyers, the courts and judges, and they used to complain about the juries. They claim the judges are giving awards which are too large, that the lawyers are creaming off the costs and the doctors are charging too much. Everybody is at fault, according to the insurance companies, except themselves.

We should look at how they organise their affairs. For the most part it is an utter disaster. They are among the most inefficient of organisations in cutting their own costs and in reducing the compensation and legal cost figures about which they complain so bitterly. They will not settle cases early when they could do so cheaply, at a fraction of the eventual cost. They run everything up to the door of the court. Anyone who goes to the Four Courts on a High Court sitting day will see throngs of barristers, solicitors, doctors, engineers and photographers brought in at enormous expense, which is paid for initially by the insurance companies but ultimately by the citizen by way of increased insurance premiums which are permitted by the Minister. Why does the Minister not tell them to be more sensible in their approach to claims, thereby saving millions? The time to settle a case is at the earliest possible moment before a writ is issued. Instead the matter is allowed to run on for years before being settled at the door of the court. At that stage there are two large sets of legal costs to meet, those incurred by the plaintiff — the person who suffered the accident — and their own.

Let us talk for a moment about the charges made by the witnesses. In every case there could be two or three doctors, an orthopaedic surgeon on each side, a GP and perhaps some other specialist. These doctors know how to charge for attendance at court. It can range from £300 or £400 a day up to £1,500 a day, payable in advance. Let no one talk about the taxing master cutting it down. They are not interested in that. A specialist witness whose presence is required in court on a particular day will agree to be there provided he is paid up front. The insurance companies pay and they say they need increases in premiums to cover their costs. The Minister does nothing about it. People are being priced out of the insurance market while insurance companies whinge about their own affairs but do nothing.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce and I met representatives of the Law Society last night and discussed some aspects of this matter. Members of the Law Society, the president and others, told the Minister that there are cases on record of specialist doctors requiring £1,500 up front to come to court. That does not apply to all of them but the norm is £300 or £400 upwards. If the case runs on for a few days, the charge is so much per day. The engineer who drew the road maps and the photographer must also be paid. Why do the companies not settle such cases at an early stage? I have been dealing with them for 40 years and I know it is not their way. One cannot persuade them to be sensible and settle a case quickly.

Most people would settle a case for far less if it could be concluded quickly. They cannot wait two or three years to get the car repaired. The system is inadequately staffed as a result of the deficiencies of the Minister for Justice in failing to provide adequate staffing. Most people would willingly settle for a modest but reasonable sum provided they could do so quickly. The insurance companies will not, however, comply and they insist on dragging the matter to the door of the court. At the last minute they start negotiations, by which time the costs have gone out of all control. Then they come complaining that they are losing money. This is a major factor in their losing money but the Minister and the Government condone it. Instead of complaining about uninsured drivers the Minister should tell the insurance companies to control their premiums and set maximum premiums for different categories of people. Unless that is done, the whingeing and moaning will continue.

I wish to give ten minutes of my time to Deputy Kenneally.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

Let me begin by saying that there is agreement on all sides of the House to the first half of the motion being debated here tonight — namely that motor insurance costs are too high, particularly for young drivers. This is a major reason why the Government established an Inter-Ministerial Group on Motor Insurance earlier this year. I am a member of the inter-ministerial group, together with my colleague, Deputy Ray Burke, the Minister for Justice and the Attorney General. The group have completed their work and will report to the Government shortly. I expect that the Government will subsequently approve and announce a package of measures designed to reduce insurance costs for all drivers, including young drivers.

The chairman of the inter-ministerial group is my colleague, Deputy Desmond O'Malley, Minister for Industry and Commerce, who last night informed the House of some of the group's recommendations, or endorsements of proposals, relating to my area of responsibility. To re-cap, the relevant legislative proposals include the following:

The Garda Síochána will be empowered to impound uninsured vehicles; there will be a mandatory driving licence disqualification of one year for a first uninsured driving conviction. There is no mandatory disqualification for a first conviction at present; there will be a mandatory driving licence disqualification of two years for a second or subsequent uninsured driving conviction. The present disqualification period is one year.

There will be mandatory driving licence disqualification for two years, with a requirement to repeat the driving test in the case of convictions for either drunk driving or dangerous driving. The present mandatory disqualification is one year. The proposed obligation to repeat the driving test is a radical measure, to deter drunk and dangerous driving. This measure will have widespread support in the community — particularly from the families of those killed, injured or permanently disabled by reckless or inebriated drivers.

The blood alcohol limit of 100 milligrammes per 100 millilitres will be reduced to 80 milligrammes per 100 millilitres — the limit in most other EC member states; a breath alcohol limit will be introduced; certain loopholes in the drunk driving code will be closed.

My Department are preparing the relevant detailed legislative proposals, as a matter of urgency.

The inter-ministerial group have endorsed or developed a wide range of measures relating to road safety, enforcement, the operation of the courts, legal costs and so on. The group broadly agree that the benefits of these measures must be passed on — and be seen to be passed on — to motorists, in the form of reduced insurance premiums.

Improvement in the "environment" in which Irish insurers operate is clearly a top priority. Equally important is the need for insurers to review and improve the efficiency of their own operations — in expediting the processing of claims; in negotiating competitive legal fees; in improving their underwriting systems and marketing strategy; and in cutting their administrative overheads by computerisation and otherwise. Not all the problems of the motor insurance industry can be laid at the doors of the Government or this House.

The inter-ministerial group's recommendations include certain proposals, or variations of certain proposals, contained in the Fine Gael policy document —Motor Insurance for Young Drivers. I do not think I will be accused of stealing Fine Gael policy proposals, as the Government had signalled their intention to, for example, impound uninsured vehicles some time ago. I have serious reservations on aspects of some Fine Gael proposals. I would be less than honest if I did not express these reservations in a frank and forthright way. For this reason, I could not support the adoption of the motion now before the House because it calls for the implementation of certain Fine Gael proposals which have serious drawbacks or are on some occasions unworkable. Labour have moved an amendment proposing yet another commission of inquiry into the insurance industry. Major inquiries were completed in 1972, 1976 and 1983 and I do not honestly believe another inquiry would serve any useful purpose in present circumstances. The Government set up the inter-ministerial group to quickly come up with an action plan relating to insurance. I believe this approach has proved more effective than an inquiry.

In September 1990 I initiated an intensive campaign on road safety at a national seminar under the auspices of the National Safety Council. I announced a package of 25 road safety measures which I do not wish to repeat here. This was followed by a major NSC road safety public awareness campaign, with the assistance of a contribution of £250,000 from the Irish Insurance Federation. The NSC launched a special video on road safety in March. The NSC have also commissioned special surveys on attitudes to road safety issues and on compliance with road traffic laws and regulations.

The Garda Síochána have intensified the campaign against drunk driving, starting at Christmas but continuing at special periods throughout this year. I believe that this Garda activity is a major factor — if not the major factor — in the reduction of road casualties this year. The provisional road accident statistics show that 116 people were killed on our roads up to end of April this year. This represented a reduction of 37 or 24 per cent on the fatalities during the corresponding period last year. Personal injuries declined from 2,710 to 2,378 or by 12 per cent over the same period. I earnestly hope this reduction will be sustained for the rest of the year, and that it will be a spur to further reduce the carnage on our roads in 1992 and future years.

I would concede that the cost of motor insurance is influenced, to a significant degree, by the frequency of road accidents and the resulting frequency of claims. The relevant statistics show a steady improvement from the early to mid 1980s. Unfortunately, there has been some deterioration in the statistics since the mid 1980s. Nonetheless, the statistics for 1990 still show an improvement on the corresponding statistics of a decade or so ago. I will cite relevant statistics, for the information of the House: there were 216 road accidents per 10,000 licensed (or taxed) vehicles in 1990 compared with 232 in 1980, a reduction of 7 per cent; there were 4.5 fatalities per 10,000 licensed vehicles in 1990 compared with 6.2 in 1980 — a reduction of 27 per cent; and there were 83 personal injuries per 10,000 licensed vehicles in 1990, compared with 93 in 1980 — a reduction of 11 per cent. I am hopeful that the figures for 1991 will be better than those for last year.

In 1989, there were 1.3 road deaths per 10,000 population in Ireland. This is the most widely accepted and reliable basis for international comparisons, and puts Ireland around the middle of the EC road safety league. There is no room for complacency — we all want to see Ireland nearer the top of this league.

The claims statistics for 1990 are not available. Insurers received about 1,100 claims per 10,000 licensed vehicles in 1989, a reduction of about 35 per cent on the peak frequency of nearly 1,700 claims per 10,000 vehicles in 1982.

Let me turn now to our roads programme and the planned elimination of accident blackspots. This Government introduced record levels of State expenditure on roads rising from £166 million in 1986 to £240 million in 1991 with a total of £970.17 million in State road grants provided between 1987 and 1991. Even to the casual driver, the number of major road improvement projects which have been completed or are under construction are immediately obvious. The discretionary grants for county and regional roads have increased from £23 million in 1986 to £68.13 million in 1991 with £182.4 million being made available in the period 1989-91.

"Value for money" is a much bandied term in most economic circles. While this Government do, indeed, look for value for money in their road programme, the overriding criterion applied is that moneys expended on road improvements or maintenance will lead to safer conditions for all road users — be they pedestrian or vehicular. The current Operational Programme on Peripherality commits us to completing the development of the national primary network within 12 to 15 years. I would submit that this Government are honouring that commitment and are genuinely seeking to ensure that accident black spots become a thing of the past, as quickly as possible. It is established policy to give priority consideration to requests from road authorities for allocation of funds to schemes which involve the elimination of high accident or black spot locations. In the memorandum accompanying their road grant allocation, road authorities are specifically asked to have regard to the need to eliminate accident black spots when selecting road projects.

The Environmental Research Unit compile road accident information and issue this to the road authorities. This includes identifying high accident locations. The Environmental Research Unit have recently issued cluster diagrams showing the density of accidents on all classes of roads to all road authorities. The Environmental Research Unit, in conjunction with my Department and the local authorities, have made recommendations for low cost remedial measures at high accident locations on national routes. Proposals were issued to the local authorities for necessary action. This programme will continue in the current year for some national secondary road locations as well.

The Government favour a step by step approach to the extension of compulsory road worthiness testing. At present, about 45,000 heavy goods vehicles, buses and ambulances over one year old are liable to annual testing. In accordance with a 1988 EC Directive, I will make regulations later this year extending testing to about 50,000 light goods vehicles over four years every two years, on a phased basis from January 1993.

The EC Council of Transport Ministers on 21 June 1991 agreed on a draft Directive providing for the testing of cars over four years old every two years. This Directive will be in operation by 1 January 1994 in the case of EC member states with existing car testing regimes, and by 1 January 1998 in the case of Denmark, France, Ireland, Italy and Portugal. There are almost 540,000 cars over four years old in Ireland. I propose to consult with interested motoring organisations about the implementation of the EC car testing Directive in Ireland.

In the meantime, the Garda have initiated a vehicle defects rectification scheme in the Dublin area. About 1,000 motorists were given the option of rectifying defects as an alternative to prosecution and 80 per cent did so. I am happy to inform the House that the scheme is being extended nationwide, due to the satisfactory response of Dublin motorists.

The Fine Gael document proposes that a minimum number of hours of "off the road" lessons should be mandatory before a provisional driving licence holder could take to the roads.

If this means driving in an enclosed area off the public road, it ignores the impracticalities of such a requirement. Facilities for such driving simply do not exist around the country and the cost of providing them would be very high indeed. In any event, the benefits of driving outside of normal traffic conditions and situations must be questionable. I do agree however that learner drivers should be professionally taught by qualified instructors. I have proposed the establishment of a voluntary register of driving instructors to the national associations representing instructors. I have also proposed the development of an agreed course of tuition, in consultation with the IIF. Such a course could include classroom tuition on the "Rules of the Road" and driving skills — before a learner driver is taken out on a public road. I hope that learner drivers completing, say, a minimum of 25 hours tuition, at a cost of £250 to £300, would get a special insurance discount. A minimum discount of 20 per cent would seem a good "target" to be aimed for.

No-one suggests that a learner driver can become an expert overnight when he or she has passed a driving test. International reports indicate that five to six years experience of driving is required to become a good driver.

Let me now deal with another of the Fine Gael proposals — that a provisional licence and the first two years of a full licence would require the display of R plates restricting such drivers to a maximum 50 miles per hour. I understand that New Zealand, has abandoned its "P" (Probationer) plate scheme. An "R" (Restricted) plate scheme does operate in Northern Ireland but has never been extended to Great Britain — on the grounds that its benefits have not yet been established. Would it be reasonable to have road traffic laws discriminating against starter drivers? The national speed limit is 55 miles per hour and a reduction of 5 miles per hour or 10 per cent for young drivers hardly seems worthwhile and could make enforcement contentious. Many accidents happen because somebody is driving at 45 miles per hour in circumstances where they should be driving at a lower speed e.g. in a built-up area where the limit is 30 miles per hour or on a wet or icy road. Most starter drivers are adults — not necessarily young adults, where driving is taken up late in life. I do not consider that it would be fair to say such drivers cannot take any drink at all — when other drivers would be legally permitted to do so. I am not aware of any precedent for a zero alcohol limit for young drivers in other EC member states.

Another Fine Gael proposal suggests that young drivers be encouraged to obtain advanced driving skills, by a special discount on their insurance. I would support this idea but think it should apply to all drivers of any age.

I come now to the proposal to increase the number of driver testers in order to clear the backlog. The backlog has already been reduced by almost a third with a further quarter having been given appointments. The increased level of testing has exposed a high number of applicants who have no problem with waiting because they are refusing to take the early test offered to them. The effective backlog at present, therefore, is equivalent to only about three months intake of applications. The backlog should be totally eliminated by the late autumn. I wonder, therefore, why this proposal has been included. I announced, during a debate in the Dáil and in reply to several Dáil Questions, that I had increased the number of testers dramatically — in fact the level was almost doubled, from 40 last year to 79.

Enforcement of road traffic law and related regulations is primarily the responsibility of my colleague, Deputy Burke, Minister for Justice. However I think it appropriate for me to mention some relevant enforcement statistics. In the four year period to 1989, the Garda brought about 500,000 prosecutions, on average, for driver and vehicle-related offences. In 1989, there were 77,000 prosecutions for motor insurance offences, 60,000 prosecutions for driving licence offences and 7,000 prosecutions for drunk driving. About 90 per cent of the District Court is taken up in processing these prosecutions. No one can say the Garda are not enforcing the law. At the same time, there is scope for stricter enforcement — particularly in relation to the more serious road traffic offences. As I have already mentioned, the Garda are giving a high priority to targeting drunk drivers — who cause or contribute to an estimated one-third of road accidents.

Finally, an interdepartmental committee has furnished a report on the improvement and extension of the "on-the-spot fine" system. The report recommends improvements in the existing system before it is extended to cover items such as the non wearing of seat belts and obvious vehicle defects. The relevant improvements involve, inter alia, major upgrading of existing computerised systems. Accordingly it will be some time before the on-the-spot fine system can be significantly extended.

Fine Gael apparently propose that any motorist whose car is damaged by a "starter driver" could not claim any compensation, from the insurer, for the first 10 per cent of damage or £500, whichever is the lesser. This would contravene both EC and national compulsory third party motor insurance law — which requires all motorists to have minimum property damage cover of £80,000 — without any deduction from the claim made by the third party property owner. If, on the other hand, Fine Gael intend that the "starter driver" would have to recoup the first 10 per cent or £500 of any third party property damage claim paid by the insurer, this would mean that the young motorist would not be effectively indemnified in many "minor" road accidents. If a "starter driver" could not afford to recoup up to £500 paid by an insurer to a third party, the insurer would cancel the policy — leaving the starter driver with no insurance at all.

In a nutshell, Fine Gael's proposal for "starter driver" insurance would not represent a "better deal from insurers" for a significant number of young drivers.

In conclusion, what we are saying is that the inter-ministerial group have come up with a wide-ranging package of measures which will be going to Government shortly and an announcement will be made. We think we have got it right and hopefully we will be able to reduce the premiums cost for young drivers and, indeed, all motorists in the near future.

If you have it will be the first time you have got it right.

I am sure there is hardly a person in this House who would not like to see motor insurance premiums reduced not only for young people but for all others also. This motion before us tonight refers only to young drivers and while they suffer most I believe there must be scope for reductions right across the whole spectrum of people who are insured. Having said that, young people do suffer most but it is also an irrefutable fact that they are responsible for most claims. I honestly cannot understand why Fine Gael are wasting their Private Members' Time with such a motion at this time as we are all well aware that this subject has been discussed over and over again, both inside and outside this House. Regarding the call by the Labour Party for a commission of inquiry, I think this is only an exercise in further wasting scarce resources. Some people feel that an inquiry or a commission being set up is the answer to all our ills right across a range of subjects. Would it not be lovely if it were that simple?

The Minister for Industry and Commerce informed the House last night that he and other Members of the Cabinet are at present investigating this whole area. Is that not a better way to proceed rather than with an expensive and probably unproductive commission of inquiry. There have been previous reports and inquiries and the Opposition now want us to throw away more money for nothing to come up with the same results again. Some of the steps that the ministerial group intend to take up to improve the situation are already on the record of the House. Basically, as with all businesses or the running of any enterprises, good housekeeping will ensure that abuses are curbed and that there is a better deal for everybody. The capping figure or starter premium of £750, as suggested by Fine Gael, is a totally ludicrous suggestion. This is something that obviously we would all like to see but on this side of the House we are realists and we know that it is not possible. The problems of the motor insurance industry are much more serious and go much deeper and cannot be resolved by an idea which has obviously not been fully thought out. Where, for instance, is the money to come to an insurance company to take up the slack in the reduction in turnover that will obviously be caused by a reduction in premiums? It would have to be spread across the company's customers. We must remember that many of these are people who have just come out of the high premium category and perhaps have settled down to lesser premiums now. It appears that Fine Gael want to penalise them once more and this is what would happen.

As matters stand, unfortunately no company can afford to drop their premiums at present no matter how much we would desire it because of the large underwriting losses which are being experienced. Every commercial enterprise has to strive to make a profit and it is no different in this industry. Having said that, I still feel the insurance companies themselves should take a serious look at their own operations to try to find a better deal for their customers. Perhaps this will happen as a result of more open competition resulting from the removal of trade barriers within Europe. The EC is striving to create the environment for greater competition and I hope that the more varied availability of insurance will have the desired effect.

We have all seen previously in other areas the obvious benefits which accrue as the result of healthy competition. The basic problem is that there are too many claims and that some compensation awards are too high. I do not believe that this is because of a lack of driving skill or because the roads are not good enough. We must remember that a significant amount of money has been spent on our national, secondary and county roads over the last few years. Indeed we are now at the level of expending approximately £65 million per annum on non-national roads, which is a vast improvement on the £8 million being spent a few short years ago. Extremely large sums of money are also being expended on many projects on most of our main thoroughfares throughout the country. As a result of the significant amount of Structural Funds obtained from the EC by the Government even if we were not developing an excellent road network there is still no reason for lesser quality roads producing more accidents. If care is taken, if laws are obeyed and speed limits adhered to, there should be no problem.

I agree that the strict enforcement of our driving laws is essential. For instance, what percentage of motorists in this country wear seatbelts? Quite a significant number do not; I remember that when this law was first introduced a very high number of motorists obeyed it, particularly because it was being strictly enforced at the time. I suggest that it is not being enforced as rigidly at present and, accordingly, the law is not being observed in the way it should. In the UK, when this law was introduced originally, a very high percentage of motorists obeyed it and indeed still do. Perhaps this says something about our make-up in this country; our friends across the water are more likely to obey laws than we are. We seem to have a far more cavalier approach to some of our regulations and do not abide by them if it does not suit us.

It has been proved that seatbelts reduce the risk of death and serious injury, which would have the knock-on effect of compensation claims being reduced. Indeed, as the Minister for the Environment outlined, this is happening in the area of drunken driving. Another major factor in the high number of claims is the poor quality of many of the vehicles on our roads. You only have to drive across the Border to Northern Ireland to see immediately that the quality of cars on the roads there is of a much higher standard than those in the South.

It is because they have better roads.

It is because cars are subject to MOT tests at a much earlier stage than in this country. It is a regulation I should like to see brought into force here and an area I should like the Minister to look into. I urge him to bring in legislation as speedily as possible to enforce the mandatory testing of vehicles after a period of four or five years. Obviously a more rigid enforcement of the law in this area, even as it stands, would also be of benefit. However, we cannot expect a cursory glance by a garda at a checkpoint to reveal many of the vehicle's defects. In this area I should like to see specific garages designated to carry out such tests but they should then be subjected to random testing by Department inspectors. This would prevent abuses in the system.

This brings us to the old chestnut of the legal costs and the level of compensation claims. We were all told a few years ago by the insurance industry that if we abolished the jury system the level of claims would fall dramatically. We did that, but claims have not been reduced. Why do claims in this country have to be higher than in the UK? There can be no valid reason for this; perhaps guidelines should be laid down for the courts in these matters. The level of legal representation in some court cases is ridiculous. I would encourage, and should like to see, a tribunal set up whereby some of these claims, particularly the smaller ones, could be settled far more easily and with a significant reduction in legal costs. There is a particular problem in relation to small claims at present. We can all give examples and we know that when a person goes into a garage to have a car repaired one of the first questions he or she is asked is whether it is an insurance claim. If it is, we all know that the price goes up and that, if it is not, it is significantly lower.

Below a certain level of cost we also know that an insurance company will just approve the estimate submitted and will not investigate it further. While the insured benefits in the short term by perhaps having work carried out which was not really the result of an accident, it is a very short-sighted policy as this practice leads to higher premium rates for every motorist. I suggest that if insurance companies were faced with lower legal costs in the operation of a new type of tribunal they would be in a position where they could afford to assess all the claims submitted to them, thereby cutting out this practice. In the long run everybody would benefit from this. With regard to setting up such a tribunal, I was pleased to hear the Minister for Justice refer to something similar when speaking on the Courts (No. 2) Bill in the House this morning.

I was also very interested to hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce referring last night to a recent article in Business and Finance, which I had also seen, on the insurance industry and the increase in the number of solicitors over a relatively short period of time from 1,500 to 3,500. What are they all doing? They all appear to be making money. It must be on, as the magazine called it, “compo culture”. This is something we have inherited from the United States, not only in relation to motor insurance claims but also in other claims. Indeed, a number of people in this country make a living from doubtful insurance claims.

Will you bring your remarks to a conclusion, Deputy, as your time is up?

I can think of an individual in Waterford city whom I will call "compo X" as I do not want to reveal his name. He is not alone; there are quite a number of these individuals throughout the country and they need to be stopped from engaging in these practices. However, the present system in the courts is stacked in their favour.

Coming back to the suggested commission of inquiry into the motor insurance industry, I again reiterate the unnecessary cost involved and that it would serve no useful purpose. Accordingly, this House should reject it.

I should like, with the agreement of the House, to share my time with Deputy McCartan and Deputy Byrne.

Acting Chairman:

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I should like to move the amendment in the names of The Workers' Party Deputies.

Acting Chairman:

You cannot move the amendment but you can speak to it.

Will I have an opportunity to move it in the event of the first amendment to the motion falling?

Acting Chairman:

I do not think so. You may speak to it now and we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

Because of the manner in which the amendment is framed it should be taken in the event of the first amendment being defeated. I welcome the motion before the House from Fine Gael which seeks to highlight the widespread dissatisfaction which undoubtedly exists with the insurance industry and specifically with the motor insurance industry.

The Workers' Party seek to delete all words after "young drivers" and substitute the following:

"that the prohibitive cost is contributing to the number of uninsured cars on our roads, calls on the Government to take all appropriate measures to reduce costs and ensure that all cars and drivers are adequately insured; and urges it in particular to examine the following areas:

(1) the need for safer roads,

(2) the need for stricter enforcement of the road traffic legislation; especially in regard to drunk driving,

(3) the need for improved procedures in regard to the cost of claims and the administrative procedures of insurance companies,

(4) the need to reduce legal costs,

(5) the possibility of establishing a tribunal for personal injury claims,

(6) the possibility of introducing a national `no fault' insurance system, similar to that operating in a number of other countries."

There can be few service industries that have produced the level of public dissatisfaction and disquiet as the insurance industry. Very few consumers believe that they are treated fairly or reasonably by their insurance companies; and there is much to suggest that this belief is well founded, especially in the area of motor insurance and most particularly in the treatment doled out to young drivers.

The cost of insurance premiums for cars in this country is extraordinarily high and there seems to be no end in sight to the continual increases. The Insurance Industry Federation have been leading the publicity field ensuring that their view on every increase is widely known. Over the past few years many of the IIF excuses for continuing high insurance costs have been tackled, ranging from the compensation awards made by juries, the three counsel rule, removal of price controls, lack of compulsory seat belt legislation and so on. Unfortunately for the motorist, insurance premiums continue to rise on an all too frequent basis.

If one looks back at the parliamentary questions that have been continually raised in the House in recent years one will find two things in particular. The Government Minister of the day tends to trot out the insurance industry line in terms of defending the status quo and explaining why action cannot be taken. It seems that the Insurance Industry Federation and their members have had an extraordinary impact on the Department in as much as this line is trotted out almost uncritically. In addition, a great many of the matters that Deputy Kenneally referred to as things that should be done, momentarily forgetting that he is a Government backbench Deputy, have been announced in this House in recent years by the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister of State at that Department as being about to be done.

That is correct.

However, I cannot find any evidence of these things having been done. The Minister for the Environment, who quite appropriately contributed to the debate having regard to the fact that he is responsible in no mean way for the state of cars on Irish roads — regrettably they are prone to accident because of the state of our roads — again trotted out the inter-ministerial committee as being about to put recommendations and so on, but I will believe that when I see it.

In one of the newspapers of 2 May 1990 the present Minister for Industry and Commerce was once again in the headlines as the Minister who does not shirk taking difficult decisions. The article states: "A tribunal for personal injury claims in motor insurance cases, which would establish levels of awards, was suggested by Industry Minister Des O'Malley yesterday." The article went on to say:

He said he was determined to tackle the high cost of motor insurance — four times greater here than in Britain. And he stressed it was time for a fundamental review of the way compensation is paid. The average personal injury claim here is six times more expensive than the equivalent in the UK.

The tribunal, he explained, would try to establish a reasonably predictable level or awards. "If people knew within certain parameters what the level of award for a particular injury to a particular persons was likely to be it would mean that these cases would be settled much more rapidly," he argued.

I think everyone would agree with that, but it has not been done and it now looks like it is not going to be done. It still provides backing for quick scripts for Government backbenchers but it seems to have been dropped as Government policy.

It is like the pitbulls.

The Insurance Industry Federation tell us that high insurance costs are caused by the high rate of claims. Maybe this is a valid reason — undoubtedly it is true to some extent — but on the other hand it could well be a smokescreen to hide the poor running of the insurance industry in this country and their ability to manipulate profit outturns at the end of the year as between one sector within the industry and another. Every time the Oireachtas takes action to reduce insurance costs one can almost be guaranteed that the next insurance invoices posted out to the consumers will contain a notice of an increase on the way. It is time that a whole package of measures was implemented to improve safety on the roads and the manner in which the insurance companies conduct their business. Greater emphasis should be placed on enforcement of the road traffic legislation. The amendment in the name of my party outlines a series of proposals to make driving safer and cheaper for the motorist.

There are major problems with regard to the loadings put on policies by the insurance companies, in particular the high cost of insurance for young drivers, which are in most cases such as to be prohibitive. While the number of claims from young drivers appears statistically to be as high as 40 per cent of all claims, should they be expected to pay premiums as much as 400 per cent more than the average insurance policy? Many young drivers find it either impossible to get insurance cover or are forced to pay through the nose for a policy, or of course, worse still, to drive without insurance. The premiums can range as high as £2,000 to £3,000 and there are some insurance companies who will not even give a quotation to young drivers.

I have a recent cutting of 13 June 1991, I think from the Evening Press, in which a reporter states:

Exorbitant car insurance premiums — one 25 year old man was quoted £8,000 — have led to calls by the Consumers Association for an urgent inquiry into the car insurance industry. Premiums for many drivers under 30 have doubled in the last two years, according to the Fair Insurance Association.

The Courts Act, 1988, for example, removed the role of juries in deciding the cost of compensation. That has not resulted in any noticeable reduction in awards despite the claims made for it at the time. The removal of the three counsel rule has not reduced the extent of legal fees in insurance cases. In fact, legal costs are still rising.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, answering questions on 15 February 1990, claimed, as reported at column 2084 of the Official Report:

The insurance industry expected that legal costs would fall as a result of the abolition of the three counsel rule. Unhappily, there is no evidence at all that legal costs have fallen as a result. Indeed, the contrary may well be the case. The insurance industry itself has estimated that legal costs contribute some 20 per cent to their overall costs. I should point out, however, that, in addition to barristers' fees, these legal costs include solicitors' fees and the fees and expenses charged by expert witnesses such as doctors and engineers.

Deputy Taylor in his contribution and

from his personal experience dealt at considerable length with the merry-go-round that is involved not merely in the area of legal expenses but in the cost of professional and expert witnesses, which are, in plain man's language, a rip-off. Clearly expert witnesses, including medical doctors, see it is an opportunity of a quick and easy killing. It is a rip-off and it is contributing seriously to the problems in the industry, but again it goes untackled by the Government.

Another feature of the present high level of claims and legal costs is the appearance of ambulance chasing solicitors. Advertisements are appearing regularly in newspapers from solicitors announcing that they specialise in accident claims and that they work on "a no win, no fee" basis. I would not go down the road of claiming that the increased number of solicitors — from 2,000 to 3,500 in recent years — are pushing the law to the limit on compensation claims. I feel very uneasy with this practice and it may be a matter for the Law Society to act upon.

The Workers' Party believe that there is a need to establish a procedure to adjudicate on claims on a less formal basis than courts but which provides the consumer with an adequate means to obtain compensation from insurance companies when the matter is disputed. We have called for the establishment of such a tribunal for personal injuries. Such a tribunal could be made up of a High Court judge and several lay assurers. The tribunal could reduce the enormous court costs involved and could set guidelines for compensation payments. Neither Minister who contributed to the debate explained why the Government have dropped their own commitment to the establishment of a tribunal of roughly that nature. Commitments were made in the House that such a tribunal would be established, but that has not happened.

There is no doubt that the poor quality of many Irish roads contributes to difficult driving, and the condition of roads is a matter for concern. The need for additional expenditure to make roads safe is a point that has been well made through the years, at no stage more emphatically than during the recent local elections. This Government have not given local authorities sufficient finance to enable them to begin filling potholes, erecting proper signposts and employing road safety officers. For example, there is a strong indication that the most recent accident involving a Bus Éireann bus travelling to Wicklow occurred largely because of the poor condition of the roads.

I fail to understand why the Government has continued to block the introduction of roadworthiness tests for cars. There should be a MOT test of the kind which exists in other countries and for which Deputy Kenneally argued very strongly just a few moments ago. The Minister for the Environment has had ample opportunity to introduce such a test. He almost reluctantly announced recently that testing would come into effect by 1998. The need to ensure the safety of all vehicles travelling on the roads is urgent, and I call on the Minister for the Environment to introduce roadworthiness tests long before 1998.

Tonight I wish to make a case for at least three categories of drivers who have not yet been spoken about by any Deputy contributing to the debate. I shall refer specifically to the need for a fair rate for insurance for motorcyclists, PSV drivers, hackney and taxi drivers, and tradesmen who are obliged to use their cars in the pursuit of work and who very often have to carry large quantities of tools.

Given the nature of the building industry and the desire of so many tradesmen to obtain employment, it is imperative in 1991 that a tradesman have a vehicle in order to pursue his trade. Because of the nature of the building industry, tradesmen very often have to travel long distances to and from their work, and their work may require that they stay for a short time in various locations. Therefore, in order for a tradesman to get work he must be able to carry his tools and have a car which is insured. Their position in relation to motor insurance is quite outrageous. As apprenticeships are for four or five years, the vast bulk of tradesmen will be under the age of 25 years. For instance, I know of a married man of 21 who is a very sober person, does not drink and is in a stable relationship and who has a ten year old car valued at £3,000. He has to pay the outlandish sum of £1,750 for third party, fire and theft insurance. Everyone knows of the difficulties encountered when trying to get work, particularly in the building industry. In order to pursue job opportunities, which are scattered throughout the city and the country in general, unemployed tradesmen are obliged to be insured at an extremely high rate. I wish to make a case for them specifically.

Motorcyclists often receive very little sympathy. It is said that they are all young and that their bikes are difficult to control. However, more and more people — hundreds of them in the city alone — require motorbikes not for leisure pursuits, joyriding or reckless driving but, like the tradesmen, to pursue work opportunities. Everyone is familiar with the sight of motorbike couriers. They are on the streets in all kinds of inclement weather. It is fact that a monopoly prevails in the insurance industry in relation to motorcyclists and that one company has exclusive rights to insure them. As a result, their premiums are extremely high. They are young people trying to earn a few shillings, trying to earn a living, who put their motorbikes at the disposal of a company and work extremely hard through unsociable hours and in all kinds of weather and they are being severely penalised by the insurance industry.

The third category to which I wish to refer are taxi drivers and hackney drivers. They are engaged in a crucial public service, particularly at night, and play a great role in enabling other drivers who wish to go out to drink in the evenings to leave their cars at home and travel by taxi. Believe it or not, taxi drivers have to pay insurance premiums as much as £4,000. I argue that the Government and the insurance companies have a responsibility to consider carefully the reasons that taxi drivers have to pay such outlandish rates. A great job was done this time last year, and a joint project involving the availability of taxis and the combined forces of the Garda Síochána enforcing the laws resulted in there being very few accidents on the roads at Christmas time. Outside of the Christmas period enforcement of the traffic laws is sadly lacking. Everybody can see the number of cars outside every pub in the city and they cause traffic jams particularly at weekends. The statistics show that on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays there are car accidents all over the city directly resulting from the consumption of alcohol. The Minister himself pointed out that one third of road accidents is caused by drinking drivers. Given the amount of alcohol being consumed and the number of people driving to and from pubs, greater participation among more and more taxi drivers and hackney drivers combined with stricter enforcement by the Garda Síochána is needed to encourage more motorists to leave their cars at home. This country is sadly lacking in that respect. Our British counterparts take a much more responsible attitude to drinking and driving and drivers are more likely to leave their cars at home.

Those three categories — people in search of work such as tradesmen who need cars for carrying tools, motorcycists working as couriers, and those who provide taxi services — should be better treated by both the Government and the insurance companies. The Government have a very important part to play in bringing some reduction of insurance premiums to those people.

I join the debate with Deputies Rabbitte and Byrne on behalf of the Workers' Party and support the amendment moved by our party.

The basic problem seems to be that our insurance system is much too expensive and is prohibitive for too many people, particularly young drivers, to the extent that the driving of cars without insurance is perhaps directly related to the cost being so unacceptably high. The Minister stated in his speech that that was not primarily his responsibility. On the other hand, the insurance industry argue that their costs in maintaining the service are too high. It would seem that the two main players in the area are not prepared to take direct responsibility for action. The formula remains the same. Our drivers must continue to pay unacceptably high premiums. In many instances drivers are not afforded the opportunity to take up insurance at all.

If it could be left at that we might all be happy. However, the social consequences of the pattern that is now emerging are so great that we cannot be complacent. In particular I believe that the extent of uninsured driving is not acceptable and must be addressed, and there is a strong history of direct Government intervention in the insurance industry when it was in trouble. I refer particularly to the saga of ICI and PMPA. There was no argument that it was not the direct responsibility of the Minister or the Government when they were on the point of collapse. The Minister said last evening of his own role:

I must dwell for a short time on my role as Minister for Industry and Commerce in relation to insurance and on the problems facing the insurance market in the State. It must be emphasised that the basic role of the Minister laid down both by international and Community law is one of supervision of insurers in order to ensure that insurance companies meet their statutory solvency and reserve requirements.

The Minister goes on to say:

It is not my function to tell insurers how to run their business or to interfere with their rights to accept or reject or dictate the terms applicable to any insurance policy or to interfere in their rights to charge realistic premiums in the light of their underwriting experience.

We must challenge that hands off attitude of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It certainly is an attitude that cannot be tolerated at the level of chaos that now exists within the industry. It certainly does not reflect the hard line statements that he has been issuing for some time now, some of which have been referred to by Deputy Rabbitte in his contribution, all of them for public consumption over the last number of weeks and then, when it comes to answering a charge in the House, he says that really it is not his function at all.

This approach is welcomed and played upon by the Insurance Federation itself because, dressing up its position in figures that really are not worth the mention, it argues strongly that there are other ways of dealing with the problem and that the problem is not with the industry itself. They tell us they are in a bind, that they have paid out so much money in claims over the past year. It would appear the Minister for Industry and Commerce is prepared to borrow those figures without question to dress up his own arguments. They say they paid out £320 million in claims in the past year.

I am advised that there is something of the order of 1,040,000 registered vehicles alone on our roads, whatever about unregistered and unaccounted for vehicles. On a mean average that would mean that insurance should be averaging at something around £300 per vehicle per year, but that is certainly not the mean average at the moment. In fact we are not told what is the mean insurance average, but I know it is much higher than that. We are told that the insurance industry lost £40 million in 1988 in the motor area and £116 million in the last year with something comparable for the current year. We are told that that is in the motor sector. We are not told what is the overall take of the insurance industry in the motor area or how they perform throughout the industry generally in other areas. We are not told the huge profits they make in the property, business, public liability and all the other areas in which they operate and out of which they should be expected to carry the loss leader of the motor insurance sector. The figures that the insurance companies present suit their own case and no one else's.

We have to look a bit more closely at what has been happening over the last number of years. During the debate on the Courts Bill of 1988 the Government presented a four point package: the abolition of the juries, which were abolished in civil cases and which has not led to a reduction in the cost of litigation; limiting counsel's fees, where the reverse has happened but still there are no regulations introduced in statute or otherwise and the Bar are allowed negotiate with the Minister and the Minister for Justice; the publication of a book on quantum damages is still awaited; pre-trial procedures were to be legislated for and that has not happened.

The Minister for Social Welfare, introducing that debate in 1988, said that there would be a reduction of between 10 per cent and 20 per cent in premiums for drivers. That certainly has not happened. There has been abject failure in this whole area. The Government must stop the hands off attitude advocated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last night and begin to take direct action by intervening in the industry. Models exist in New Zealand and elsewhere of no fault liability, of establishing national personal insurance where people are compensated for accidents based on their need and on other criteria by tribunals and not by expensive and cumbersome courts of law. There are many propositions there that could be taken up; but it needs a Minister, in whatever Department, with the courage and commitment to do it. If that commitment is absent anything we have heard from the two Ministers who contributed to this debate is meaningless.

I propose, with the agreement of the House, to share the first five minutes of my time with Deputy Deenihan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The cost of motor insurance in Ireland is now one of the highest in the European Community. Premiums here are now over three times higher than in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. It is now commonplace to read in our newspapers of the unacceptably high quotes that drivers, particularly young drivers, are being given. In many cases insurance companies are refusing to quote for young drivers.

Continued losses for insurance companies has meant and will mean for the foreseable future that unless some action is taken by the companies and by the Government premiums will continue to increase and young drivers in particular will continue to experience great difficulty in getting motor insurance and great hardship in an attempt to meet the levels of motor insurance costs.

The cost of motor insurance is a source of much frustration to many of our young people, in particular those young people who are seeking employment. I am personally aware of a number of young people who had to give up the opportunity of a job because they could not afford to pay the insurance to get a car to travel to work. This is a commonplace occurrence throughout the country. It is a severe imposition on our young people, especially those under 25 where there is now a 23 per cent unemployment rate. It is adding to the frustration and disillusionment with our system.

The cost of motor insurance is by no means a new issue. It has been an issue since I entered politics. I brought up the matter on several occasions in this House on the Adjournment and at Question Time. Several other Deputies have done likewise. The Government have been very slow to act and I can see no reason why proposals brought forward recently should not have been brought forward years ago.

Despite the widespread public concern about the matter, little has been done by the Government. Recent moves by the Government, including tougher measures against drinking and driving and the reduction in the waiting time for driving tests, will go some way towards reducing the accident rate in this country, but they are by no means sufficient. Further measures proposed here by the Minister tonight and also mentioned by Minister O'Malley last night are certainly very welcome. I hope they are not too late to stem this spiralling cost of insurance cover.

The causes of high insurance premiums have been gone into by many speakers here. There are several. The main cause is the high accident rate here, one of the highest in Europe. A number of speakers mentioned ways of preventing this. In addition, court awards are much higher here. They are up to ten times higher now than in the UK. The level of uninsured drivers is estimated now at between 8 per cent and 10 per cent of all drivers, and it is estimated that there are about 80,000 to 100,000 uninsured drivers on our roads at the moment. This figure may be exaggerated somewhat.

There are many unqualified drivers and drivers with provisional licences on the roads and despite the increase in the number of testers, there are long delays in getting a test, in some cases up to eight months. This is totally unacceptable. The number of claims increased by more than 5 per cent in the past year. The average third party claim is now £17,500 which is six times higher than the UK average. It is estimated that uninsured drivers add £40 extra to the insurance costs of each driver. Indeed, there is a low conviction rate for uninsured drivers and the average claim rose from £5,000 to £8,000 in 1989 and is increasing.

Insurance companies must bear some responsibility for the losses they sustain. Reckless competition in the seventies between companies has been replaced by a cartel monopoly like structure. Fianna Fáil in their 1987 manifesto proposed a programme for young people and said that the cost of motor insurance was beyond the reach of most young people yet insurance companies were losing money. Fianna Fáil aimed to resolve that unsatisfactory situation through an imaginative approach.

It has taken the Government too long to come to terms with this. They should introduce a school road safety campaign. There should be a written or oral test prior to the granting of provisional licences. There should be a register of schools of motoring and a compulsory course which would act as credits in the final test. A similar system operates very effectively in many parts of the US.

It is unfortunate that young drivers cannot avail of employment opportunities and their social life and general freedom is being restricted by the high cost of insurance. This is an unfair imposition on young people and I appeal to the Minister, and the Government, to take on board the proposals put by many speakers tonight.

I thank the House for affording us the opportunity to discuss this matter in Private Members' time. I thank those who support our proposals and we accept The Workers' Party amendment which is identical to ours. I am not sure that the holding of a public inquiry, as suggested by Deputy Taylor, will resolve the problem. Public inquiries can be long, tedious and extremely expensive and may not in the end, in this instance, resolve our problems. The proposals Fine Gael have put forward would achieve the right blend. They are being supported by the Workers' Party and largely by the Labour Party.

Three Government speakers expressed surprise that this issue should have been raised again in the House. I make no apology for raising it, and we have raised it at every possible opportunity. When young people meet public representatives this one issue comes up again and again. I hope this debate helps focus the attention of the Government on a matter which is crying out for change.

A statistic trotted out by the Minister for Industry and Commerce last evening virtually condemns young people to their fate on the basis that they are the architects of their own misfortune. The figures seemed to indicate that young drivers are a bad risk, that they are dangerous on the road. I refute that suggestion. The figures also show that a large proportion of young people drive long distances on the roads daily in the course of their work. A large proportion of young people work as company representatives and travel to the four corners of the country in the course of their business. Taking that into account and the long journeys many young people undertake inevitably they will end up being involved in accidents. The accidents arise not because they are young or because they own cars.

How many young people have been refused work because they cannot drive or get a drivers licence? How many have been refused work because they have been waiting for a licence? How many of us have been approached repeatedly by young people to have driving tests expedited so that they can get employment? The figures issued by the insurance companies support the Minister's argument that nothing can be done. Most of the proposals put forward by the Government will do little to improve the situation, and some of them are somewhat repressive. If the Government are serious about this issue, why has it taken the interim ministerial committee so long to report? As my colleague Deputy Deenihan pointed out, Fianna Fáil were talking about this back in 1987. Did the Ministers stress the urgency of the matter to the interim committee, or are they kicking the issue around like the legislation to control pitbull terriers? When an emergency arises the Government rise to the occasion and produce something that will get the people on this side of the House off their backs for the time being.

I should like to emphasise the way the Minister for the Environment tonight sidestepped the issue of the bad roads. Another Government speaker referred to the fact that they have better cars in the North. Is is any wonder that they have. They do not have to cross as many potholes, drive around as many dangerous bends or drive on so many slippery road surfaces. We have many signs warning people of slippery road surfaces. I invite anyone to drive from Dublin to Tralee and note the number of accident blackspots identified on the roads. We should ask ourselves why those accidents blackspots have been identified. The reason is that there have been hundreds of accidents there costing hundreds of thousands of pounds, possibly millions of pounds, in compensation, in Garda time, in professional medical time, in legal time and there have been huge costs in terms of high insurance premia. There is no excuse for allowing accident blackspots remain particularly since 75 per cent of the funds needed to remove them is readily available from Europe.

Insurance company figures are open to question when one asks questions like that raised by Deputy McCartan as to the total take under respective headings. The Minister's response to these questions was vague, go to the blue book and so on. When we asked for a comparison with other European countries the Minister was more vague. There is not any reason why people here should pay higher insurance premia than that paid in other European countries other than the bad roads, bad driving instruction, lack of proper instruction before the young driver goes out on the road and the lack of enforcement.

Those issues should be tackled instead of the Government talking about what is likely to happen in the future. The contributions from the Government side referred to what is likely to happen in the future. In 1987 the Fianna Fáil Party were talking about this issue and in 1991 we are in the same position.

The insurance companies seem to have plenty of information available when they want to highlight their losses and make a case to keep premia high. How is it that we do not have statistics available to help eliminate abuses, for instance where a person repeats claims ten, 15, 20 or more times? Modern technology should be used for that purpose. It should not be difficult for insurance companies to get the information required in those areas.

The Minister has taken on board some parts of the Fine Gael proposals. The Minister for the Environment, Deputy Flynn, claimed tonight that he had put forward these proposals in the first instance. I do not mind whose proposals they are so long as they are implemented. People have been crying out for the implementation of these proposals which have been operated successfully for many years in other countries.

There seems to be a difference of opinion between the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for the Environment. The Minister for the Environment did not accept the proposal in regard to the zero level of alcohol. He regarded this as unfair. Yet we are trying to bring down insurance costs for everyone, particularly young people. He also felt that a restricted speed limit would be unfair as it would discriminate against young people. Young drivers are being seriously discriminated against at present and it was ridiculous for the Minister to suggest that a reduction in the speed limit of five miles per hour for young people would discriminate further against them. If the Minister was really serious about this issue he would have come up with a better answer than that.

I should like to thank all those who contributed to the debate. If the motion does nothing else I hope it focuses the attention of both Government parties on this vital issue so that it can be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 88.

  • Byrne, Eric.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Howlin and Ferris; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Finucane.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "young drivers" and substitute the following:

"that the prohibitive cost is contributing to the number of uninsured cars on our roads, calls on the Government to take all appropriate measures to reduce costs and ensure that all cars and drivers are adequately insured; and urges it in particular to examine the following areas:

(1) the need for safer roads,

(2) the need for stricter enforcement of the road traffic legislation, especially in regard to drunk driving,

(3) the need for improved procedures in regard to the cost of claims and the administrative procedures of insurance companies,

(4) the need to reduce legal costs,

(5) the possibility of establishing a tribunal for personal injury claims,

(6) the possibility of introducing a national `no fault' insurance system, similar to that operating in a number of other countries.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 72.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies McCartan and Byrne; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put: "That the motion be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 71.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Breannan, Mattie.
  • Breannan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.
Question declared lost.
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