It is proposed to take Nos. 7, 8, 9, 6, 13 and 2. It is also proposed that No. 6 shall be decided without debate.
Order of Business.
I am obliged to ask the House if it is agreed that No. 6 shall be decided without debate. Deputy John Bruton on that subject.
I ask the Government to withdraw No. 6 from today's Order Paper as it involves an attempt to get the Dáil to guillotine through the approval of expenditure of £6.8 billion of taxpayers' money at a rate of approximately £550 million an hour. We believe this is directly in defiance of the Constitution, which requires the Dáil to consider the Estimates. This proposal is not consideration; this is asking the Dáil to rubber stamp the Estimates and excluding the majority of Deputies from any participation in the discussion on the Estimates. This comes at the end of a session during which the Government have used the guillotine in such a fashion as to deny normal parliamentary discussion and to deny Members on this side of the House the opportunity to propose amendments to most of the Bills which are presented here for discussion. If the Government proceed with No. 6 — I appeal to them to withdraw it from today's Order Paper — the Fine Gael Party will engage in the most extreme opposition tactics available to them to prevent this fundamentally unconstitutional and undemocratic procedure from going ahead.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I hope that the Leader of Fine Gael and his party are not just looking for a traditional end of session row.
Most definitely not.
A Deputy
That is not our tradition.
I want to assure him that whatever view I had about his suggestion that we withdraw No. 6 for further discussion was completely eliminated by his threat to engage in some extreme parliamentary tactics, which I presume simply means disrupting the House. I am not prepared to give in to such tactics.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
My party gave you notice last night of our views——
Excuse me——
——on this matter. We gave you ample time to withdraw this motion.
I have not finished. The Government, in an endeavour to meet the wishes of the Opposition, have agreed to an extra week's sitting in order that the House can discuss the situation in Europe and the proposals in relation to agriculture. These are two very important matters and I agree that the House should be given an opportunity to discuss both of them fully. My original suggestion was that two days would be devoted fully to these matters but apparently the Opposition insisted on having Question Time and Private Members' Time, which shortens the amount of time available for the debate on these subjects very considerably. Last year we gave ten and a quarter hours to the debate on the Estimates——
Ridiculous.
——and this year we are giving 11 hours.
(Interruptions.)
I am prepared to suggest ways in which we could give an extra six and a half hours, which would be 17½ hours, for the Estimates. This would give the Opposition parties plenty of time——
No.
——to discuss any matter they wish to raise on the Estimates, including the general budgetary situation.
Dublin and Meath have played for longer than that.
We are being asked to approve the expenditure of £6.8 billion——
Let us hear the Taoiseach.
The Estimates amount to over £6.8 billion every year, so there is no point in talking that sort of rubbish.
(Interruptions.)
This procedure would do credit to the Albanian Parliament under Hoxa.
Deputy Brendan Howlin.
The Whips have had considerable discussions on how to deal with this year's Estimates. The Labour Party were anxious to have a more inclusive debate rather than take each Estimate separately. We put this proposal to the Taoiseach. We also sought — this has been discussed by the sub-committee on Dáil reform of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges — a question and answer type session in relation to Estimates rather than the present system where Members make statements which simply rest there unanswered. Therefore, the whole methodology for dealing with the Estimates should be addressed. I do not know whether there is any value in adding endless time to enable each Member of the House to make a statement on the Estimates, but we do need adequate time. It is very important — we argued trenchantly for this — to have Private Members' Time and Question Time next week, normal parliamentary business which is inclusive of all Members of the House.
I understand the Taoiseach's initial response but I want to make a request on behalf of the Labour Party to him not to move No. 6 for one hour so that the Whips can meet to see if they can agree a formulation which would deal with the Estimates in a sensible way and allow us to conduct our business in an orderly way at the conclusion of this busy schedule.
I am perfectly prepared to agree to that suggestion. It seems to be the proper way to proceed in the conduct of our parliamentary business. The only thing I would suggest is that we need not confine ourselves to one hour.
Of course.
I also want to say that we are not pre-empting any particular form of debate on the Estimates. On that basis I am prepared not to move No. 6 so that the Whips can get together and see if they can arrive at some agreement.
That is what we asked you to do last night.
(Interruptions.)
I thank the Taoiseach for his indication of flexibility on this matter. It is not appropriate that we should deal with a major issue such as the Estimates on the basis of parties having ten minutes to make a contribution, as is proposed in regard to many of the Estimates under the current schedule of business. However, I would question why it is not possible for these arrangements to be made at Whips' meeting level when it is possible to do so on the floor of this House. We need to look seriously at what is going on at Whips meetings when rows like this have to be brought onto the Floor of the House.
That is correct.
I take it that the question in respect to No. 6 is deferred.
Yes.
I am very glad that the Taoiseach has now backed down on this outrageous attempt——
(Interruptions.)
Will the Taoiseach give a promise to review the situation whereby the Government repeatedly guillotine legislation in this House so as to prevent proper discussion of Bills or amendments being made to them? Will he agree to refer this matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
Time allocation motions are a mechanism used by every parliament in the world for the dispatch of business.
Not as frequently as they are used here.
If the Deputy took time to look at, for example, the procedures in the American House of Congress or the House of Commons in London he would see that we are quite liberal in the amount of time we allow for a number of issues to be decided.
That is not correct.
May I ask the Taoiseach——
I want to call Deputies in an orderly fashion. I will come back to the Deputy.
On this topic.
I thought we had a resolution of this topic.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that in virtually every parliament in Europe, and in North America, there is a proper committee system which allows most business to be dealt with in a businesslike way off the floor of the House? The problem with time allocation motions here is that we do not have a committee system and we are forced to do all our business on the floor of the House in an unconstitutional and unbusinesslike way which erodes the rights of elected Deputies.
Rubbish.
Am I in order in asking the Taoiseach if he has had time to consider the request made by the party leaders for a confidential briefing on the talks in Northern Ireland?
I am sorry, but it does not arise now.
I dealt with that matter yesterday when I suggested that if any matters arise which are not already in the public domain and the subject of public comment and to which I think it suitable, appropriate or necessary to draw the attention of the party leaders I will do so.
While I am pleased the Taoiseach has stated that he will defer moving item No. 6, the talk has centred on the arrangements for the taking of the Estimates which are clearly unsatisfactory. I would also like to make the point to the Taoiseach that the arrangements for the making of statements on the recent European Council meeting are also unsatisfactory. As usual no provision has been made for either me or the other independent Deputies to make a contribution. As we can make no input at Whips meetings I would ask the Whips to consider this matter when they next meet.
I had hoped to give one day to that debate but, from my point of view, unfortunately and regrettably, the Opposition insisted on having Question Time and that considerably shortened the time available.
On next week's business, may I ask the Taoiseach if it is his intention when making a statement on the recent meeting of EC Heads of State or Government to refer to the meeting he had with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Major?
I can always do that. I understood that the Opposition were concerned — I sympathised with their views — to give as much time as possible to a discussion on the European situation: political union, a common foreign and security policy and economic and monetary union. They are all major issues. What I want to do, with the agreement of the House, is to start a major debate on all these issues which can go on until the final European Council meeting at Maastricht.
Will the Taoiseach take an opportunity before the House adjourns to outline the Government's position on the siting of a toxic incinerator plant at Maydawn, County Derry, which is a source of much concern in County Derry but, in particular, in County Donegal? Will the Government clarify the position?
There are opportunities available for raising such a matter in the House other than at this stage.
Will the Taoiseach take the opportunity before the House adjourns to clarify the Government's position?
The Deputy should put down a question on the matter.
In relation to item No. 6 which is being deferred for one hour, one aspect which is of some importance and which, perhaps, will colour people's attitude to what will ultimately be proposed in the House, is the question of the resumption date in the autumn. Clearly, if it is the intention not to resume until some time in mid-October then a strong case could be made for the House to sit an extra week to do its business in a proper way before it goes into recess.
Perhaps that is something the Whips will take into account.
Will the Taoiseach indicate at this point the resumption date?
That will be announced in due course.
To assist us in making a decision on the resumption date——
A Deputy
Will the Deputy be present?
As always.
Presumably, the Deputy will be involved with his dual mandate in council meetings. Virtually all the Deputy's colleagues, apart from the Front Bench, have a dual mandate. Perhaps the Deputy will also have a problem in attending.
(Interruptions.)
May I ask the Taoiseach if he will assist the House by indicating when it is proposed to resume after the recess?
The Chair has permitted the Deputy to pose that question and I can do no more in the matter.
Mr. McCartan rose.
Deputy McCartan, I am anxious to get on to the Order of Business proper.
May I ask the Taoiseach the reason the Select Committee on Crime which the House agreed to some weeks ago have not met? Now that we are in the last week of business is it the intention to allow this committee sit during the vacation period so that they can get on with their important work?
That is another matter which can be discussed by the Whips.