Vol. 411 No. 8
10 Mr. T. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Defence whether it is intended that the efficiency audit group will undertake an examination of the Defence Forces; if so, if he will outline (1) their terms of reference, (2) the team composition and (3) the anticipated length of the study; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
23 Mr. Pattison asked the Minister for Defence whether the efficiency audit group have presented their report arising from their review of his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 23 together.
The efficiency audit group have presented their report to the Taoiseach and it has been accepted. The report covers the main activities of the Department and makes recommendations. The efficiency audit group recommended that an implementation group should be set up to press ahead with the implementation of its proposals, the implementation group to include an assistant secretary from the Department of Finance, Chairman; an assistant secretary from the Department of Defence and the Quartermaster-General. The implementation group has been set up.
The efficiency audit group also recommended the establishment of a review team to examine the administrative structures and systems within the Defence Forces. This team has been set up and its terms of reference include:
1. (a) a review of the organisational arrangements, including structures, for carrying out Defence Forces administration functions, in order to facilitate the most efficient management of resources, with a view to securing economies by providing services more efficiently and at a lower cost and with particular reference to the geographical command structures and to concerns about the number of military personnel engaged in administrative duties;
(b) in the context of 1 (a), a review of present Defence Forces administrative systems, including purchasing and personnel, in order to minimise the number of approval steps and, in general, to simplify procedures and secure economies;
2. a review of the arrangements for financial management and delegation within the Defence Forces with a view to the introduction and operation of new financial management systems to ensure better value for money;
3. a review of the present information technology for the defence area.
This represents a major change in defence policy. Does the Minister agree with what is proposed? Do the Taoiseach and the Government agree with the proposals? Does the Minister accept that this new policy is effectively taking responsibility out of the Minister's hands as the person accountable to the House and the public and putting it into the hands of the Chief of Staff? Will the Chief of Staff now be answerable to the Committee of Accounts for such decisions? Grave concern has been expressed by the public. Will the Minister reconsider what is being proposed because there are major implications involved?
I accept that this is a major report. The conclusions of the EAG report have been outlined in detail and circulated to the unions and others involved. The EAG were determined to ensure that three fundamental principles should apply: 1, that the constitutional and legal provisions to ensure civil control of the Defence Forces must not be weakened in any area; 2, that the changes proposed should enhance the role of the Minister for Defence as head of the Department, particularly in relation to the functions of securing good government and efficiency as outlined in the Defence Forces Act, 1954 and 3, that there should be no dimunition in the present level of financial control exercised by or accountability to Dáil Éireann, the Government, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Defence. The report sets out in some detail the way that should be proceeded with. The EAG recommended the setting up of an implementation group that would put into operation the recommendations of the EAG. As I said, that has been set up and the group have communicated with the various interests involved. I am satisfied that the implementation of the recommendations of the EAG can make for a more efficient, more effective and better service generally.
I should like to ask the Minister to provide the Opposition spokespersons with a copy of the EAG report. I should also like to ask the Minister if in relation to the report he is satisfied that the Chief of Staff and Army personnel will have the authority to dispose of Department of Defence property. I understand that one recommendation is that they should have the power of sale of Department of Defence property. Has that matter been considered by Cabinet? Is the Minister satisfied with that recommendation?
I consider it would be worth while for the Deputy to have a copy of the report. As the Deputy knows, the report was commissioned by the Taoiseach. I shall advise the Taoiseach's Department of the Deputy's request that copies of the report be circulated. It is very detailed and comprehensive and deals with several important matters. It sets down a formula under which future development of policy and other issues can be dealt with. It would be premature to discuss the report in the Dáil without Deputies first being fully aware of its contents. For that reason it is advisable that Deputies have the report available to them and, perhaps, it might be placed in the Library.
The report makes recommendations such as a major strengthening of the secretariat's audit function; the elimination of the present seven-day notice of audit requirement for access to military information and facilities and a new emphasis on defence policy within the secretariat. The absence of an overall defence policy has been criticised in the House on numerous occasions by Deputies from both sides of the House. Other recommendations are: retention by the secretariat of the responsibility for major procurements; an extension of administrative budgets to the military, which is felt desirable; and rapid progress in the introduction of computerisation. We have substantial numbers in the military, in the Reserve and in the Department rapid progress towards computerisation is vital for the better management, organisation and efficiency of the Department generally. A long term training initiative for the secretariat and the military is also recommended. The report also covers other matters that would bring about overall effectiveness and efficiency in the Department and the military. It has been pointed out by the EAG in their report that efficiency and effectiveness would most certainly not be served if the working group's recommendations were to result in reducing one level of bureaucracy and replacing it by another, and that is why the review to which I referred in my reply has also been established.
The PDF have long since called for a review of the administration vis-á-vis Coláiste Caoimhín and the Defence Forces. I do not consider it is a matter of what is in the report but what will happen to the report. While the British Parliament, for example, has within it a Defence Committee which liaise between the PDF — the various elements of the Defence Forces — and Parliament we do not have such a committee here. Will the Minister indicate when he will be able to circulate copies of the report for discussion. Will the various representative organisations within the PDF be given an opportunity to consider the implications of the report? What effect will its recommendation have on the administration now performed by Coláiste Caoimhín?
Initially a working party review was published some time in March. At that stage I received representation from and met the various associations. When the final report of the Efficiency Audit Group was brought to my attention I instructed that the associations and unions involved be provided with copies of the report. I understand that has happened. I hope it will be possible to put copies in the Library soon. The report contains far-reaching conclusions. It set down a time schedule by which some of the issues should be dealt with and implemented. If the Deputy fears that the report will be allowed to lie without any action being taken on it, I can tell him that the implementation group to give effect to the report's recommendation has been established. That group includes a representative of the Department of Finance, the Assistant Secretary of the Department of Defence and the Quarter-Master General. The implementation group have indicated to the associations and the unions involved that they are willing and anxious to discuss the implications of the report, and I understand that will get under way fairly soon.
It is a fundamental question, on the basis of media reports, the Taoiseach and Government have agreed to this. Will the Minister confirm that this proposal is off the cuff? Does he agree that it will not be operative as far as trade unionists and many people in the Defence Forces are concerned since it always had been Government policy that military should be subject to the closest possible civilian control whereas the Minister is giving such civilian control back to the Chief of Staff, which is totally unacceptable. Will legislative change be necessary? If so, will the Minister say under what Bill heading it will be introduced? In view of the widespread implications in an area of particular public concern will the Minister commit himself to having that report published so that there can be a full debate in this Chamber in relation to it before being implemented by Government?
We are having quite an element of repetition.
There may well be legislative changes required to give effect to some of the recommendations of the Efficiency Audit Group report. One point to which particular attention was drawn by the Efficiency Audit report was that which I have already quoted here: that the constitutional and legal provisions to ensure civil control of the Defence Forces are not weakened in any way. While the report is now at the stage of implementation I would expect it to be the subject of fairly detailed negotiations and discussion before final decisions are taken in that regard.
Will the Minister say whether the Cabinet have accepted it?
Yes.
We are making very little progress.
But that is ridiculous, a Cheann Comhairle, since we are being confronted by a fait accompli. We are asked to come in here and discuss it where as it has already been accepted by the Cabinet without consultation. I want to place on record that I consider that to be utterly appalling.
We have made very little progress at Question Time today.
This is a most important question.
Would Deputy Ryan please restrain himself?
Will the Minister say whether the Efficiency Audit Group consulted other armies — for example, the British, French and European armies — in general before concluding their report? Furthermore, is he aware of the type of discussions that may have taken place?
This question is being widened out of all proportion.
If the Deputy will table a separate question I will reply to it. I should say that the Efficiency Audit Group was established by the Taoiseach to review the operations of the Department of Defence and, I understand, other Government Departments as well. This is the first report that has come to hand. If the Deputy will table a separate question with regard to whom they consulted or did not I shall be glad to answer it.
To the Taoiseach.
I am calling Question No. 11.
