Michael Creed
Question:14 Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Justice if he has satisfied himself that sufficient detention places exist for prisoners; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Detention Places.
At present there are about 2,200 persons in custody in our prisons. In recent years a new institution, which accommodates 320 persons, was provided at Wheatfield and work is currently in progress on the provision of a new unit at Mountjoy and the refurbishment of St. Patrick's Institution which, when completd, will provide accommodation for over 100 more offenders. Since 1987 there has been a total investment of £31 million in the prison building programme which is, I think, a clear indication of my commitment in this regard.
The question of whether further accommodation needs to be provided in the prison system is a matter that I keep under continual review, having regard also, of course, to the need to refurbish on a phased basis much of the existing accommodation. I am satisfied that with the developments in relation to prison accommodation which I have mentioned, together with the operation of a range of alternatives to imprisonment, reasonable provision is being made to cater for the numbers of persons who are being sentenced to imprisonment, community service or non-custodial supervision.
In thanking the Minister for the information on the number of places, 2,200, may I ask him if he will agree that approximately 7,000 persons occupy those 2,200 places annually and that this means the present policy could not possibly be working? Will he agree, therefore, it is important that the people who should be in prison should stay there to serve their sentence? Will the Minister agree that during their term of imprisonment they should be given some help and training so that they will fit back into society on release and not find themselves back in prison within a short time? During the weekend in my constituency a lady with four children was put into Mountjoy for five days for the non-payment of a fine of £230 for not having a television licence. I estimate it cost the taxpayer £500 to keep that lady in prison during the weekend. The State will not get the £230. I cannot think of anything more stupid than to send a person to prison at a cost to the taxpayer of £500 when that person should not be there in the first place. I am not suggesting that some punishment should not be imposed on that person but surely community service work or the payment of a fine by instalments would be a better way as distinct from putting an individual into prison at a cost of £500 to the taxpayer. It is of no benefit to society.
This is tending towards debate and it is not good enough.
Finally, may I ask the Minister if he has any proposals in relation to detention centres for juveniles? He is aware, of course, that we do not have detention centres, under his Department's control, for juveniles? We have special schools. Are there any proposals to provide such centres to deal with the hooliganism we have seen in our city during the past few days by under 16s?
That should be more than adequate, Deputy.
The last point seems to be a separate issue. The Deputy spoke about education and training in the prison system as if there was nothing in place. Comprehensive training is provided.
For 7,000?
The Deputy mentioned community service orders, as if it was a novel idea. The Criminal Justice Act, 1983 provided a scheme whereby offenders can do work in the community as a direct alternative to imprisonment. For the information of the House, I should like to state that to date over 600,000 hours of work have been ordered by the courts. Over 555,000 hours have been completed, that is, 555,000 hours of work on behalf of the community which would otherwise have been left undone. This work included the provision of footpaths and landscaping at the Royal Hospital, Donnybrook; helping with meals at the Knights of Malta day care centre for the elderly, Clyde Road, Ballsbridge; maintenance and decoration of various locations, including, Whitefriar Street Community Centre, Ballinteer Youth Club, and St. Vincent de Paul, Sunshine House, Balbriggan. This work certainly would have been left undone had the offenders concerned been sent to prison. The Deputy does not want to see this happen and I share his view. I would not like to comment on the specific case mentioned by him as it is a matter for the courts who set down the particular penalty.
It is a matter for the law.
I share the Deputy's concern that in such a case it would appear to be much better to impose a fine rather than send a person to prison.
Was the Minister not petitioned?
I agree the community service orders scheme has been successful and I am pleased I first made provision for this in a Private Members' Bill which I introduced in this House in 1982. Would the Minister agree that the scheme has proved so successful that there is now a need to further extend its use? Will he agree that in the type of case Deputy Barrett referred to community service should be almost a compulsory form of punishment and that the option of imprisonment should not be available? Would the Minister agree that the very good work done through community service could be further extended to relieve pressure on the prison service so that the really hardened criminals who require a sentence of imprisonment can be given such a sentence? Finally, may I ask the Minister, as the question relates to the provision of places of detention for prisoners, if he will agree, in the context of providing places of detention for young people, that his Department and the Department of Education seem to have consistently misled the district justice in Dún Laoghaire, Judge Wine, who has courageously been calling for the provision of proper facilities for over 18 months in conjunction with other members of the District Court? Can the Minister say when that problem will be solved and when the relevant places of detention will be provided?
The Deputy is bringing in new matter now.
With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, it relates to prisoners and the provision of places of detention.
So far as the question of alternatives to custody is concerned, there is a list of alternatives which includes community service orders, probation, fines, deferment of sentences and other disposables involving supervision in the community. For example, 31 extra probation and welfare service staff have been recruited to provide special intensive supervision for 200 young offenders as an alternative to custody. The provision of places of custody for young offenders is a matter for Government decision and is being co-ordinated by my colleague, the Minister of State who is responsible for the educational area.
Is there not a joint departmental committee?
Accommodation has become available in the Lusk area. More will come on stream there and in Finglas also.