Séamus Pattison
Question:10 Mr. Pattison asked the Minister for the Environment if he has any intention of reviewing plans for the provision of housing and other facilities for travellers, and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Provision of Housing for Travellers.
Gerry O'Sullivan
Question:23 Mr. G. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for the Environment the action he proposes to take with local authorities who have not met their obligations regarding the provision of halting sites for travellers.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 23 together.
The accommodation needs of travellers featured prominently in A Plan for Social Housing, published in February last. Since then, housing authorities have been urged to make a more determined effort to meet these needs. The authorities have, in conjunction with their assessment of housing needs generally, also carried out an assessment of the number of traveller families in need of accommodation in serviced halting sites. The assessments showed a total of 748 traveller families in need of local authority housing and 870 traveller families needing accommodation in halting sites. Housing authorities have been instructed to draw up clearly defined sets of proposals to meet identified needs for the provision of halting sites. Funding for the provision of such sites has been readily available. The allocation this year is £3 million and this level will be maintained and, if necessary, increased in the future.
The Minister indicated that he urged local authorities to take on board the settlement of travellers. Cork Corporation have housed 110 families, provided three halting sites and have one in preparation. Other local authorities throughout the country have abdicated their responsibilities in regard to travellers. Will the Minister agree that local authorities who have contributed very well to the settlement of travelling people should not have to bear the brunt of the problem?
I agree that some local authorities have discharged their responsibilities better than others. As I pointed out, the Department have been in touch with local authorities and we now have a system of quarterly reports in place on the progress and provision of accommodation for travellers by local authorities. The results for the first two quarters of the year have been received and while they show that only a small amount of progress has been made by local authorities it is worthwhile continuing the exercise as it puts pressure on local authorities to provide halting sites.
Will the Minister accept that looking at housing in isolation for travellers is a mistake? It is retarding progress in many local authority areas because travellers must have their economic, social, educational and health needs taken into account at the same time as housing is provided; they are intertwined because of the culture of the travellers. Because of that will the Minister consider setting up a national travellers' commission to co-ordinate and press for more progress in regard to this discriminated against minority?
As the Deputy is aware, there is an interdepartmental committee in operation and the Minister for Health — as I am aware from former days — is responsible for co-ordinating activity between the Departments which, I agree, is necessary in regard to integrating the travellers in the general community.
Is the Minister aware that the sixth report of the committee to monitor the implementation of Government policy on travelling people described it as patchy and inadequate? At the last count there were 1,146 travelling families living in unacceptable, unsanitary conditions on the roadside? What plans does the Minister have to ensure that unsatisfactory situation is resolved?
In the past the Department and the Minister have been in touch with local authorities following the announcement of the plan for social housing. We are also monitoring, on a quarterly basis, what is happening. As the Deputy is aware, it is the responsibility of local authorities and members of such authorities have a major contribution to make. I encourage Deputies who are members of local authorities — and members of local authorities generally — to ensure that further progress is made in this area.
In view of the fact that the Minister has only recently taken up office in his Department, will he review the policy whereby the Department pay only the capital costs of the settlement of travellers? Perhaps he will consider adding a certain element for the maintenance of the site as this has proved to be one of the biggest barriers in providing sites and getting acceptance from the local community? Will he include in the capital costs an annual fee for maintaining the sites as local authorities cannot do it themselves?
I will certainly look at that matter as I will be reviewing all aspects of policy. I do not know whether anything will come out of it because, in the main, it is the responsibility of local authorities.
It cost £1 million in Dublin last year.
The Department provide 100 per cent of the capital for the halting sites and also pay 90 per cent of the salaries of social workers employed by local authorities to look after travelling people.
In view of the fact that the sixth report of the committee to monitor the implementation of Government policy on travelling people has identified that there are 300 more families on the roadside than there were in 1988 and have identified local opposition as one of the factors inhibiting local authorities from proceeding with their settlement programme, will the Minister consider evolving some kind of promotional or publicity campaign which would draw to the attention of the public the extent of infant mortality and other appalling living conditions which travellers suffer? It would be some contribution towards contributing to a greater degree of public acceptance and goodwill towards the settlement of travelling people.
The Deputy is correct in saying that there are more travelling families because many have returned from Britain. Every opportunity is taken to create awareness and to deal with the problems, including health problems which unfortunately are more prevalent in families of the travelling community.
As the Minister knows, there is a very heavy influx of itinerants in County Limerick and we have a very successful record of housing itinerants. Would the Minister agree that the most successful policy in the past was the integration of travellers into housing communities in the area rather than opting for halting sites? With the decline in house building would the Minister agree that it is extremely difficult to integrate travellers into the community and in those circumstances has he any proposal in this regard? There are now two types of travellers, those travelling around in big Volvos, with magnificant caravans, who expect the county councils to help them and also those who need help. What investigations take place to establish the sincerity of the applicants?
In regard to the question of accommodating travellers in houses or on halting sites, the views of the travellers have to be taken into account, and in many instances they have indicated a preference for halting sites. However, where they prefer housing obviously that should be the desirable objective. It is important to recognise that almost 2,500 families have been accommodated either by way of housing or of halting sites. While there is a major problem which has to be addressed, it is important that we recognise the progress that has been made in this area by local authorities.
We have dwelt quite long on this question. There are four Deputies offering and that is a bit much. I have to dissuade Members of the notion that we can debate this matter now. I will call the Deputies but they must be very brief, and I mean that.
Would the Minister agree that in order to keep travellers in touch with their traditional livelihood he should make arrangements for the collection and recycling of scrap materials? Is the Minister satisfied with the arrangement whereby travellers have a reasonable chance of being included on the voting register? Would the Minister care to comment on ways of improving that position?
The Deputy is bringing quite a lot of extraneous matter to this question.
Has the Minister advised or taken any steps to advise local authorities of their statutory obligations following the decision in the High Court of Mr. Justice Barron in February of this year?
That has been done by my Department.
Would the Minister not accept that there is need for a national change of view about the travelling community? Rather than see that community as a nuisance we should see it as a valued culture which is part and parcel of our inheritance. We need to do much more to ensure that children are not reared on the side of the road. If we are to be a Christian society it should be our objective that within a given number of years, say five, all travellers will be accommodated on properly serviced sites, if not in housing.
I agree with Deputy Mitchell. As I have said, a co-ordinated approach is being taken on this matter by a number of Departments. I am satisfied that my Department in their social housing policy highlighted the need to ensure more progress in the areas in which we have responsibility. An indication of my interest in ensuring that local authorities respond to the needs is the fact that we are monitoring the position on a quarterly basis. The main obligation is on members and management of local authorities to make sure that better progress is made.
Give us the resources.
Will the Minister give a commitment that, where it is clearly seen that a local authority are dragging their heels in providing sites for travellers, he will direct the city or county manager to provide sites in that area?
I do not have power to so direct them. The local authorities have a good deal of independence. My colleague, Deputy Padraig Flynn, when Minister, introduced a Bill which when enacted devolved even more authority and responsibility to the local authorities.
Is the Minister joking? He was doing well until now.
They have all the power they want and they should use it.