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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1991

Vol. 414 No. 9

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 11, 14, 15 and 12. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight; (2) No. 11 shall be decided without debate; (3) The proceedings on the remaining Stages of No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications.

(4) In the case of the Supplementary Estimates to which No. 15 refers, the following arrangements shall apply: (a) The questions necessary to bring the proceedings on Votes 34 and 25 to a conclusion shall be put not later than 5.45 p.m. and 6.45 p.m. respectively; (b) In the case of Vote 34 the speech of each Member called on shall not exceed ten minutes and a Minister of State may be called on a second time to make a speech in reply to the debate not exceeding five minutes. (c) In the case of Vote 25, the speech of the Minister for the Environment shall not exceed ten minutes; the speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 15 minutes and the speech of the Minister or Minister of State replying to the debate shall not exceed five minutes.

(5) If a division is demanded on any Supplementary Estimate today, further proceedings thereon shall be postponed and the proceedings on all such Supplementary Estimates and on the Supplementary Estimates for Agriculture and Food and Health (divisions on which were postponed on Friday, 13 December, in accordance with a resolution of the Dáil of 12 December) shall, notwithstanding the said resolution, be decided by one question which shall be put at 6.45 p.m. today and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (6) The Minister for Finance shall speak at the commencement of the debate on No. 12 for not more than 30 minutes and he shall be called upon not later than 4.50 p.m. tomorrow to make a speech in reply not exceeding 10 minutes; the speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 23.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that business be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. tonight agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that No. 11 shall be decided without debate? Agreed. Is it agreed that the proceedings on the remaining Stages of No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications?

Mr. J. Bruton

My party object to the imposition of this artificial time limit on the debate on the proposal to sell the B & I line because it is a very controversial sale. I understand that only one of the 20 amendments tabled has been debated so far. As this time limit has been imposed it is probable that the majority of amendments tabled by Members of this House will not even be discussed, let alone voted on.

Proinsias De Rossa

On behalf of The Workers' Party I, too, object to the guillotine on the B & I debate. While it is useful to have squeezed the concession of an extra hour-and-a-quarter for debate today it is obviously not adequate to deal with the other 19 amendments which have still to be reached. It is clear from the debate so far that there are many substantial issues yet to be teased out by the Members of this House and I, therefore, indicate that we are opposing the guillotine.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Order of Business the question is: "That the proceedings on the remaining Stages of No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 65.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies D. Ahern and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask if the proposals for dealing with the Supplementary Estimates in respect of Votes 34 and 25 are agreed to. Agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

The amounts involved here are not very significant, but would the Taoiseach not agree that this sort of restricted debate is inadequate as a means of dealing with financial business of any kind, and can he give the House some assurance that he has proposals for Dáil reform to allow proper committee style examination of both Supplementary Estimates and main Estimates?

The Taoiseach

This procedure is one that we have adopted for some years. It is really an opportunity for the House to discuss the Estimates in an overall context.

Mr. J. Bruton

This is the Supplementary Estimate.

The Taoiseach

I thought the Deputy was talking about discussion on the Book of Estimates. With regard to the 1992 Estimates, we intend to devote every Friday, right up to the summer, to discuss the Estimates in detail.

Mr. J. Bruton

Thank you, that is a distinct improvement. Will the Taoiseach allow for some type of committee discussions on the Estimates, where questions could be asked and answered and dialogue might develop, rather than the set piece speeches of the traditional kind which do not involve consideration of the Estimates, within the meaning of the Constitution?

The Taoiseach

I could not accept that off the top of my head.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Will the Taoiseach consider it?

Mr. J. Bruton

It is not the first time it was suggested.

Mr. S. Barrett

The Standing Orders of the Dáil were amended to allow for that type of debate on Estimates, but the order to keep that type of debate in place was never renewed.

While I am on my feet I would also ask is this the new style of Government? Traditionally we had agreement in this House between the Whips on the Order of Business and if that agreement broke down, there was holy war here during my time as Chief Whip. Pairs were cancelled and quorums were called. Every day of the week now we come in here to see the Government ramming their business through by way of a vote. It is disgraceful that this happens.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Barrett. May I take it that the question I put to the House is agreed? Agreed. The next question I must put is if the proposal for the taking of divisions on Supplementary Estimates at 6.45 p.m. today is agreed? Agreed. The last question is — are the arrangements for dealing with No. 12 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could the Taoiseach indicate the time frame for the publication of the White Paper on Maastricht? The Taoiseach will have read in the papers an indication that public opinion is potentially quite uncertain about this very important change. It is important that the Dáil and the Government should inform public opinion at the earliest possible moment on the implications of Maastricht so that debate in the lead up to the referendum will be well informed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter to which the Deputy refers is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is, because the referendum will require legislation.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have regard to procedure.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I put it in a form with which the Chair could not possibly find fault?

An Ceann Comhairle

Try it again.

Mr. J. Bruton

Would the Taoiseach not agree that in the context of the promised legislation to introduce a referendum to approve the Treaty amendments agreed at Maastricht, it is important that the Government should plan that in advance and publish a White Paper soon so that public opinion will be well informed?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given the Deputy quite some latitude in the matter.

The Taoiseach

It is only a technicality, but there is no legislation promised within the terms of the Chair's rulings. It is likely that there will be legislation and that there will be a referendum, but I have already indicated here on several occasions that the preparation of the White Paper is underway and that it will be brought forward as early as possible in the New Year.

Mr. Enright

Is the Taoiseach going back on that promise?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, this cannot go on, Deputy Enright. This is quite disorderly.

Mr. F. Fahey

The Taoiseach said that it is likely.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Enright shall obey the Chair.

Mr. Enright

Will the Taoiseach confirm that there "will be one" as distinct from their "might be one"?

Mr. Spring

I would like to ask the Taoiseach two questions on the Order of Business. Given that the Government have made provision for an extra 22,000 people on the live register next year, may I ask the Taoiseach if the task force set up by the Government, I think, last June have reported or will they report in the near future? Second, Dé Luain seo caite, dúirt an Taoiseach go mbunófaí Teilifís Ghaeilge i 1992. An bhfuil suim airgid curtha in áireamh sna Meastacháin don tseirbhís seo?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have doubts about the validity of the first question.

The Taoiseach

Níl sé sin in ord.

Mr. Spring

Níl aon airgead.

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl sé sin in ord anois.

Mr. J. Mitchell

The Ceann Comhairle should decide on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I need hardly tell the House that we have a lot of business to conduct and limited time to deal with it. Please do not erode that precious time.

Mr. Spring

After last Monday many people are expecting Teilifís Ghaeilge.

Mr. S. Barrett

May I ask the Taoiseach when the Extradition Bill will be published?

The Taoiseach

I cannot give the Deputy a date but it is being worked on.

Mr. S. Barrett

Is this the urgent Bill?

The Taoiseach

It is.

Mr. S. Barrett

We have known for 12 months——

An Ceann Comhairle

This should not lead to argument.

The Taoiseach

Let me remind the Deputy that his Government left it for 12 months and to us to bring it in the last time.

Mr. Wilson

That is correct.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

I circulated a Bill 12 months ago and, like everything else, the Taoiseach objected to it.

Mr. J. Mitchell

On the Order of Business some weeks ago the Tánaiste, who was deputising for the Taoiseach, said that there would be a local government Bill which would provide for the holding of district council elections in 1992. Is this the case and, if so, when will the Bill be introduced and when will the elections take place?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

The Taoiseach

I do not like to be peevish but I have answered that question about ten times.

Mr. Quinn

May I ask a question relating to order, Sir? On the Order of Business we are entitled to ask questions relating to legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is so.

Mr. Quinn

It would appear — and I would like your guidance — that the Taoiseach considers it to be an intrusion if a question is repeatedly asked. Unfortunately, we do not get a reply, and we will continue——

An Ceann Comhairle

Many questions, Deputy, have been ruled out by the Chair as being out of order.

The Taoiseach

I answered it yesterday.

Mr. J. Mitchell

The Taoiseach did not answer it. A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mitchell, no argument now.

Mr. Spring

We might as well go home.

Mr. Rabbitte

In relation to the legislation which has been promised and which will reorganise the Eastern Health Board into five district areas each with an acute general hospital, may I ask the Taoiseach, having regard to the fact that no money has been provided in the Book of Estimates for the Tallaght General Hospital, if he intends to go ahead with that legislation and when he will enable the Tallaght hospital project to proceed?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is circumventing a ruling in relation to the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Farrelly

There will be a flood of information on that matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

Can I get a reply?

The Taoiseach

No legislation has been promised. What the Deputy is referring to are administrative proposals.

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