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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Dec 1991

Vol. 414 No. 10

Appropriation Bill, 1991: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move: That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The annual Appropriation Bill gives statutory effect to the departmental Estimates for the supply services, both non-capital and capital, including all Supplementary Estimates that were voted and approved by the Dáil since the enactment of the previous Appropriation Act.

This year's Bill appropriates to the various services set out in the Schedule, the sum of £7,199,991,000 comprising the estimates totalling £6,991,629,000 as set out in this year's revised post-budget Book of Estimates and Supplementary Estimates totalling £208,362,000. As usual the Bill also authorises the use of certain departmental receipts amounting to £917,581,000 as Appropriations-in-Aid.

I should like to point out that although Supplementary Estimates of over £208 million have been passed by the House this year, this does not mean that Exchequer spending is overrunning by that amount. As Deputies will no doubt have noticed, the 1992 Abridged Estimates Volume which I published last Tuesday shows the provisional outturn for total voted services at £7,143 million, some £57 million lower than the total amount appropriated in this year's Bill. This reflects of course the fact that savings in certain spending areas will help defray the extra resources required on those Votes for which Supplementary Estimates were needed. I will return to the emerging budgetary position for 1991 later.

Apart from giving statutory effect to the Estimates, the Appropriation Bill has another vitally important function. That is, it provides a statutory basis for calculation of the "four-fifths" issues which the Minister for Finance is authorised, under the Central Fund (Permanent Provisions) Act, 1965, to make from the Exchequer towards meeting the cost of the following year's services during the period before the Dáil has an opportunity to consider and pass the various individual Estimates.

This allows for the smooth continuation of services from one year to the next. If the Appropriation Bill is not passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas before Christmas, the provisions of the 1965 Act could not apply and there would then be no statutory authority to spend voted moneys in 1992, at least until the Dáil resumes.

This year the Appropriation Bill is also being used to make a technical amendment to the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927. The amendment is set out in section 2. The necessity for this section arises out of the proposal, contained in the review of the Programme for Government, that the Dáil sits on Fridays. As Members are aware, under the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927, the Dáil can impose taxes by Financial Resolution, but taxes imposed in this manner will lapse unless they are ratified by being incorporated in the subsequent Finance Act.

So as to ensure that this House is afforded the right, within a reasonable time, to debate and examine in detail taxes imposed by Financial Resolution, the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act imposes strict deadlines on the passing of the subsequent Finance Act. If these deadlines are not met, taxes imposed by Resolution on the preceding budget day will lapse. These deadlines are: (i) The Dáil must complete the Second Stage of the Finance Bill within 30 sitting days after budget day and (ii) the Bill must be signed by the President within four calendar months of budget day.

As I said, the necessity for the legislation contained in section 2 arises from the proposal that the Dáil should meet on Fridays. Up to the present, the practice has been for the Dáil to sit on three days each week. If the Dáil is now to sit on Fridays, there will be four sitting days per week and the 30 sitting day rule would leave insufficient time to prepare the Finance Bill for presentation to the House.

Up to the present, with three day sittings per week, the "30 sitting day" rule allowed a Minister for Finance about 12 weeks to prepare the Finance Bill. The budget is normally on the last Wednesday of January and 30 sitting days after this day amounted to ten weeks of Dáil business. Taking account of a break for St. Patrick's Day, ten weeks after the last Wednesday in January invariably overlapped with the Easter recess. So depending on the length of that recess, the Minister for Finance normally had 12 or 13 weeks to present the Bill to the House. If the House is now to meet on four days per week, the 30 day rule would allow no more than seven to eight weeks to prepare the Bill. The legislation could not be prepared within this timescale.

No doubt Members will wonder why the Bill could not be ready in eight weeks. The process of preparing the Finance Bill is as follows. Every proposal for inclusion in the legislation has to be examined in the greatest detail by my officials. All foreseeable problems, whether problems of principle or of administrative feasibility, must be solved satisfactorily. This process involves close co-operation with the officials of the Revenue Commissioners and in certain cases, with officials of other Departments. Each proposal is then submitted to me for approval. When I have considered, and amended or approved, a proposal, officials of the Revenue Commissioners prepare a preliminary draft of the proposed section. This is sent to the parliamentary draftsman and a text for each section of the Bill is prepared. When this process has been gone through for the 100 or more sections that normally comprise the Bill, the draft legislation is assembled and submitted to Government for consideration and approval.

The Bill must then be printed and checked. It has to be published in time to allow all Members of this House time to examine it before the Second Stage is taken. It would be my firm wish to have the Bill ready for this House as quickly as possible after budget day, but it would be unrealistic to undertake that it could be got ready in less than 12 weeks or so than it normally takes.

The intention of section 2 which we are now considering is to accommodate a move to Friday sitting while continuing to afford the Government 12 weeks to prepare the legislation and to have the Second Stage taken.

However, a rigid 84 day rule would not be practicable. Because of the variability of Easter, there would be years when an 84 day rule would allow only nine or ten weeks for the preparation of the Bill, as the House would be in recess when the 84th day elapsed. Because of this, the legislation before the House provides that if the House is in recess on the 82nd, 83rd or 84th day following the budget, the Second Stage must be passed within five sitting days of the resumption.

As a consequence of changing the "30 day rule" to an "84 day rule", it is necessary to provide for a situation where the House is dissolved between budget day and the passing of the Second Stage. Under the "30 sitting day rule", were the House to be dissolved, a problem does not arise. By definition the House is not sitting and so for the purposes of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, no sitting days elapse. Under the proposed "84 day rule", however, a dissolution of the House would eat into the 84 days and it could happen that Financial Resolutions would lapse as a consequence. Therefore, section 2 (b) provides that should the House be dissolved, the period of the dissolution will be added to the time limits, that is, the "84 day rule" and the four month rule will also be extended by the length of the dissolution.

I now want to return briefly to the main purpose of the Bill — the appropriation of moneys to the various services provided in the Estimates, and to put the 1991 expenditure figure I mentioned earlier in the wider budgetary context. In speaking to this House last night on the Take Note motion on the 1992 Estimates, I referred to the international uncertainty against which the 1991 budget was set.

My predecessor, Deputy Albert Reynolds, made it very plain at budget time this year that the budget was based on certain critical assumptions — it was assumed, for example, that the international slowdown would restrict our growth rate to no more than 2.25 per cent — a dramatic reduction on the growth achieved over 1989 and 1990, which had averaged over 6 per cent per annum. No-one tried to disguise the risk that the international downturn could be worse than had been allowed for, and that this would adversely affect us. Attention was drawn to the manner in which such a slowdown could have repercussions for unemployment and therefore public expenditure. We now know of course that the recession in the UK and the US has been much deeper than anybody had anticipated.

When the end-June Exchequer returns were published it was abundantly clear that problems were emerging on the budget both as to expenditure overruns and revenue shortfalls. On the receipts side, significant shortfalls were evident in tax revenues. While on the expenditure side, the economic slowdown was increasing unemployment costs due mainly to the virtual cessation of emigration. These factors, together with some slippage emerging on other fronts, especially health, left the Government facing an overrun of at least £200 million at that time.

While some of these factors were outside our control and had to be provided for, the Government were firmly of the view that the threatened level of overrun had to be addressed in a decisive way so as to reduce the impact in 1991 and to mitigate the adverse knock-on effects for the 1992 opening budgetary position. The Government, therefore, set in train a wide-ranging and detailed line-by-line examination of 1991 expenditure allocations, and other non-tax areas to see where savings could be made to help alleviate the overrun then emerging. The result of this examination was a package of adjustment measures of over £100 million. This resolute action by the Government has helped contain the budgetary drift this year to a level well below the threatened overrun of £200 million emerging at mid-year. I am confident that the outturn on the EBR can be held to about 2.5 per cent of GNP as compared with the initial budget target of 1.9 per cent. In reality, of course, the proceeds from the Irish Life flotation will bring the actual EBR well below the budget target of 1.9 per cent of GNP.

Firm control of the public finances remains a Government priority. We have again demonstrated our resolve in this regard with the publication of the 1992 spending Estimates earlier this week which show continuing restraint on spending. Continued firm control of spending is an essential precondition for achieving the Government's medium term target and it is my firm intention to ensure that these targets are attained for the benefit of all.

(Limerick East): I thank the Minister for giving us the opportunity of saying a few words on the Appropriation Bill and the amendment that is being introduced to facilitate the officials of the Department of Finance in the preparation of the Finance Bill. I do not intend to talk about the Estimates for 1991 in general terms. The debate on the 1992 Estimates began last night and I have said what I had to say.

The amendment is a reasonable proposal by the Minister and his officials. It seems that when time is being allocated for preparation of the legislation it is false to base the time period on sitting days rather than on actual days because it is not the Members of this House who are preparing the Finance Bill. While there is a relationship between sitting days and the processing of legislation through the Houses of the Oireachtas there is no relationship between the work the civil servants in the Department of Finance put into a Finance Bill and the number of sitting days. Obviously to base the time on calendar days is appropriate in circumstances in which the Dáil will be sitting, generally speaking, on Fridays. By confining the time to 30 sitting days, considering that the Dáil will be sitting four days each week rather than three days, it would cut into the time available to the officials of the Department of Finance to prepare the Bill.

The Minister and his officials have traditionally facilitated the professional groups and interest groups who wish to make submissions between the time of the budgetary announcements and publication of the Finance Bill, and that is appropriate. Different countries have different ways of doing things. In the United Kingdom, for example, the Finance Bill is published on the day after the budget speech and it is immediately available to MPs. That is one way of doing business, but it means that the decisions which are incorporated in the budget and the Finance Bill have to be made well in advance of the budget. In the UK, matters such as the normal indexation of social welfare and the indexation of income tax bands and allowances which are matters of statute, are included in the Estimates which are published before November. Only the immediate changes are made on budget day and they are drafted in the Finance Bill at the same time as the budgetary speech is adopted. That has some merit in that the decisions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer are full and final and there is no scope for lobbying by vested interests to change these decisions subsequently.

The system here is a more open one and I am not proposing that it should be changed. It is a good idea that the professional groups and interests affected have a say in the ultimate shape of the Finance Bill even though concessions of principle are not generally agreed in discussions between the interest groups and the Minister and his officials. I have no objection to the technical amendment proposed by the Minister. Adequate time must be given to the officials in the Department of Finance and a change to a four-day sitting week would certainly shorten the time available to them.

I would like the Minister to give a commitment that there be adequate time on Committee Stage to debate the Finance Bill. It is unacceptable that a Finance Bill which can quite frequently run to 70 to 80 pages of detailed technical tax law is often limited to time. On occasions, ten, 12 or 15 sections are decided by one question at various times in the course of the debate, and effectively they are not debated at all. This House, as a legislative body, has a particular function to oversee financial matters. It is not good practice — I doubt if it is in line with the Constitution — to pass large complex sections of a Finance Bill without any debate whatsoever. I would like the Minister for Finance to reflect on this matter.

It would be more appropriate to deal with the Finance Bill in a committee of the House rather than take Committee Stage in the House. I can understand the time constraints involved. If three days are devoted to a Finance Bill in one week and two days the following week it is a lot of debating time but considering the complexity of the matter it is not a lot of time. We should consider removing the Bill from the floor of the House and dealing with it in a specialist committee for nine or ten days during which time the party spokespersons on Finance and the people in this House who have a specific expertise on financial matters could go through it line by line. If the Bill was dealt with in that way a lot of the political posturing and political rhetoric would be eliminated and a real debate would take place on the text of the legislation and its impact on tax law. If that cannot be done I would ask the Minister to ensure that we have a more extensive Committee Stage debate on the Finance Bill in 1992 and in future years. I accept the Appropriation Bill, as amended, and I thank the Minister for the opportunity of speaking on it.

I will not take up the time of the House unnecessarily on this matter. There is a certain irony in the fact that the present Minister for Finance is the person who led the charge in negotiating the Programme for Economic and Social Progress last year in which an unrealistically optimistic view was taken of revenue for 1992. In starting his career as Minister for Finance, Deputy Ahern should take a levelheaded approach to dealing with matters that need to be adopted by the Government.

It is simply crazy that we are expected to accept that when the international climate turns sour, the Government are powerless but when the international climate becomes exceedingly good, the Government are uniquely triumphant in their singular ability to turn around the economy of this country. To a certain extent the completion in a formal sense of these Estimates and the Appropriation Bill for 1991, including the correction made back in June, is a vindication of the Opposition and a reflection on the political leadership on the Government side. The Minister indicated in his speech that it had become apparent by June that things were not going so well. Should he care to — but I am sure he does not have the time — read the contributions made by myself and other Deputies, including Deputy Noonan, on the budget and on the Finance Bill, he would see that the early warnings were given at the start of 1991 to the effect that the revenue expectations based on the growth and unemployment assumptions of last year were hopelessly optimistic and would not be met. It was not until the House went into recess in July that the Minister for Finance of the day finally admitted in public what his officials had been saying for the previous six months. Having said that, it is appropriate that we go through the formality of giving legal authorisation by way of debate to the Minister.

I concur with what has been said already on this amendment. The extra time is necessary, and the period of ten to 12 weeks is an appropriate time in which to draft the technical legislation to give effect to the budget. There are both good and bad aspects to having a time separation between the announcement of the budget and the formulation of the Finance Bill. In a negative sense it allows people to mount charges and lobby against certain changes. The most effective lobby I encountered in recent times was the CII lobby against the removal of section 84 provisions and they were successful on a number of occasions. Because of the scale and size of our administration and the lack of infallibility in Government Departments, no matter how well intentioned or committed they are the time scale allows people to analyse the budget and look at the implications of the Bill to give it effect. On balance, I would prefer to maintain the system we have rather than the alternative suggested by Deputy Noonan, where the Finance Bill would be published the day after the budget. That conveys a certain kind of rigidity which I do not think is suitable for us at this point in time.

I recognise that the drafting of the Finance Bill is a complex, technical task and for that reason I strongly support the proposal that the Committee Stage be referred to a special committee of the House and that we would give ourselves a reasonable period, perhaps three weeks, to tease out the amendments in a non-adversarial manner. None of us would profess to have a monopoly of wisdom on the drafting of technical resolutions but all have access to professional back-up services in both the private and professional sectors. Indeed, we would have access to people who are from time to time formally engaged by the Government. There have been occasions where the Minister of the day was unable to respond to the technical demands of an amendment because of the scarcity of time.

I can refer to an example last year where the Minister responded to a proposal from the Fine Gael benches the previous year on the capital taxation of land transfers on the double. They made the case that when the son who inherited land died, the land reverted to the parents, thus attaching taxation on each transaction. The hardship cases were identified and recitified. Last year I highlighted a similar anomally to respect of the complications that arise when a second marriage is not properly recognised and the Minister gave an undertaking to accept the validity of the proposition being put forward but appealed for indulgence because of insufficient time to draft a properly worded amendment that could be tested legally, and an amendment could not be produced in time. They are just two examples but numerous examples could be cited. If the Committee Stage could be debated in special committee, we would get a better Finance Bill and the loopholes that inevitably from part of any Finance Act could be identified and the changes could be fine-tuned. Because we cannot increase the expenditure provisions in the Finance Bill, all we can do is make it a better Finance Bill, and this could be achieved on Committee Stage. For that reason I accept the amendment. It is not unreasonable but I believe that we will have to deal with Committee Stage differently, not just in respect of the Finance Bill but in respect of other legislation. We could make a start with the Finance Bill. If the Minister for Finance was willing to give the lead on this matter it would send a signal to the other Ministers' line departments to follow suit. It would also avoid the kind of argument that is part and parcel of the end of term critique of performance. Our legislative performance was pretty miserable this year. Who accepts responsibility for that remains to be seen. We are not responding to the legislative needs of a modern society with our 19th century system of law making. This should be taken on board. The Labour Party will support this Bill.

I thank the Minister for Finance and the Government Whip for providing the time to put on record our observations on the proposals before the House. I also take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on his appointment to what is an unenviable task.

This is a unique occasion because this is the first time ever we have addressed the Appropriation Bill, having a copy of the Bill before us. The practice heretofore was that all Stages of the Bill were taken without debate and as a result the Appropriation Act was circulated subsequently. The Workers' Party took every opportunity in the past to protest about this and we would have continued this protest because it was not a good legislative practice. Leaving aside the question of not having Second, Committee, Report and Final Stage debates we were being asked to agree to something in good faith without ever seeing it and I believe that is not desirable. We have a copy of the Bill before us today because the Minister has advanced an amendment to the Collection of Taxes Act, 1927, and I wish to comment on that. First, let me say that the reason the amendment was tabled is because of a commitment in the joint Programme for Government that the House would sit on a greater number of days in the new session. I welcome that. Indeed, we pushed for this for some considerable time so that we would work a reasonable working week and so that we would not have to endure the business being crammed into long sitting hours, as we have seen last week and this week.

The review of Government was published on 18 October last so the Minister and his officials were aware of this difficulty over the past ten weeks. May I ask why it was left until the second last day of term that the Whips were alerted to the problem and now on this last day of the session we are being asked to deal with it in this way? Is there a logistical problem in the Department of Finance of getting the legislative proposals on to the table early? This brings me on to the wider question that is involved in the amendment.

I do not think I can reply at the end of the debate but may I take the opportunity to answer it now? Other options were looked at, but when I examined them last weekend I saw that the other options might get us over the difficulty this year but would lead to difficulties in the future. Rather than having a messy solution, I decided it was better to do it this way.

The Minister is making my point in some ways, when he says he realised last weekend that there were options. The timing of this amendment leads me on to the larger issue, that is the capacity of the Department of Finance to produce the Finance Bill within a reasonable period. From the point of view of The Workers' Party the concern is that by amending the time dicate in one aspect of the Finance Bill and leaving in place the four month rule this morning we are effectively shortening by about two weeks the time that will be available to the House to debate the Finance Bill on Second and subsequent Stages. The Workers' Party would be more happy to have the Minister stand by the proposal he is advocating today if there was a proposal to lengthen proportionately the four month rule. I do not know whether or not that proposal was considered. My concern is that every time the House comes to Committee Stage of the Finance Bill there is always a guillotine in operation, on the basis that there is a deadline to meet, and Members do not get adequate time for debate. Frankly, there is a suspicion in our minds that as a good parliamentary device the Minister holds back the Finance Bill until the eleventh hour, when it is circulated, brought to the Whips' meeting and the House then begins the Second Stage debate within a matter of days of its publication. Committee Stage is taken almost as quickly, with guillotines being in place all along the way. The suspicion that as a good parliamentary tactic the Finance Bill is not released until the eleventh hour is the reason that I laboured on the point about this morning's amendment coming in so late.

Some of the more controversial aspects of the budget and the Finance Bill tend to appear later in the drafting and in the structure of the Bill and, invariably, they are never reached or debated on Committee Stage. Deputies do not have the chance to examine them in detail because of the use of the guillotine. Therefore, what is being proposed will exacerbate the position because, in effect, there will be two weeks' less time available, more guillotines will be introduced and demanded and there will be fewer opportunities for debate.

I was advised in a briefing note and explanation made available to the Whips that one of the contributing factors to the lapse of time from budget day to the publication of the Bill is the practice of allowing outside interests to lobby and the Department and the Minister taking the time to consider those viewpoints and decide whether to take them on board. Is that a good practice? I am not necessarily advocating that Ireland should follow the procedure of Britain where the Finance Bill is published virtually contemperaneously with the budget. However, it seems that in a country in which successive Governments have had great difficulty withstanding the pressure from lobby groups and vested interests groups a short period of time might be better for the ultimate product to come from the Finance Bill. I am considering the business expansion scheme proposals contained in last year's budget and the very substantial retreat represented in the Finance Bill from that position. There is no doubt that the period of time available then was used very effectively by vested interest groups to put pressure on the Minister to have the proposal changed, as it was.

For the reasons given, the Workers' Party are unhappy with the amendment proposed to the 1927 Act. We would have been happier had the second deadline been amended so that adequate time would at least be available, even if not used.

In summary, I ask the Minister, like Deputy Noonan, to promise he will consider the issue of the earliest possible date for the publication of the Finance Bill — in short, perhaps the time available for people to make their representations and have them considered could be curtailed a little — so that the Bill comes to the House early enough to allow a fair amount of time for Committee Stage.

The idea of using a special committee is also contained in the Joint Programme for Government and such a committee could be very usefully employed in a Bill of the complexity and scale of the Bill under debate.

I understand that I have no right of reply but I should like to make one brief comment.

In so far as the allocation of time for the debate is 40 minutes and that has not yet been reached, the Minister has about five minutes available to him.

I will not need that amount of time. I appreciate the concession. I thank the Opposition spokesmen and the Whip of The Workers' Party for their co-operation in this matter. I particularly thank Deputy Michael Noonan for the constructive points he made. I consider them to be helpful and I assure him I shall take them on board.

In my first ten years in the House I was involved in Finance Bill debates, both in my early years as a Government backbencher and as an Opposition backbencher. I concur with the remarks made by Deputies. When we were involved in discussions on the Programme for Government we considered the issue of special committees and the way Bills should be taken. I asked that the issue be at least examined. It was not the first time I did so. I co-operated with the Leader of the Fine Gael Party extensively in 1983, when he put forward good proposals. I was party Whip and Shadow Leader of the House at the time. Although we did not get our own way, we set up the Committee of Expenditure and introduced new regulations for the Committee of Public Accounts. They proved successful.

There are two aspects I should like to address. I have been asked about dates. The Department will not be using any devices. Deputy Noonan was gracious enough to acknowledge that the people involved in the budget section of the Department will not have too much spare time between now and the effective conclusion of the Finance Bill because they are involved in a huge process. The procedure followed does serve democracy well and gives outside people a major say in the the legislation. I was present years ago on a day when the Chancellor of the Exchequer in Britain introduced a Finance Bill and it was hard to imagine how one could issue a Finance Bill without taking into account the views of various interest groups. Obviously, it works in some form under the United Kingdom system but I do not believe it would work here.

The second issue, and probably more important, concerns a committee system. I shall give serious consideration to the way in which a committee system would work. I do not know about the days, but it has always been my view that with the amount of attention paid to each section and each provision in the Finance Bill, the amount of party posturing — to use the expression Deputy Noonan used this morning — a committee process with experts from the Department of Finance the Revenue Commissioners and other appropriate advisers, would be much more meaningful. This morning Deputy Noonan asked me to examine a committee process, and I shall certainly do that. The second request was that if that was not feasible there should be some way of extending the number of days available. The first proposal is attractive to me because it is a sensible suggestion but I am only expressing a personal opinion and shall have to take the matter up with the Government in due course.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and passed.

The Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Aricle 22 (2) of the Constitution.

(Limerick East): A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not mean this in any discourteous way but may I call a quorum because a couple of us have appointments and I do not want to leave the Minister alone.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

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