Vol. 415 No. 9
22 Tomás Mac Giolla asked the Minister for Education if he will make a statement on his plans for the apprentice education scheme with reference to (a) his Department's role, (b) length of apprenticeships and (c) the education component in apprenticeships.
44 Mr. Taylor asked the Minister for Education his views on the current FÁS proposal in relation to the training period for apprenticeships of two to three years; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
52 Mr. Taylor asked the Minister for Education his views on the current FÁS proposal to allow them to set standards and run the examinations in relation to apprenticeships without reference to the education authorities, and if he will make a statement on the matter.
57 Mr. Bell asked the Minister for Education his views on the current FÁS proposal to run apprenticeship pilot programmes in FÁS centres thereby excluding the input of vocational education committee colleges, and if he will make a statement on the matter.
98 Mr. Kavanagh asked the Minister for Education if he will outline his position in relation to the current FÁS proposals to remove all input from his Department from apprenticeships; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 22, 44, 52, 57 and 98 together.
As far as my Department are concerned there is no question of the Department of Education not being involved in the examination, certification and delivery of apprenticeship training programmes.
These issues will be fully addressed in the forthcoming Green Paper. I know the Deputy will appreciate it would not be appropriate for me to comment further pending issue of the Green Paper. Following the publication there will be ample time for those inside and outside the education section to offer their views.
Deputies will be aware, of course, that matters such as duration and entry qualifications for apprenticeship training are a matter for FÁS under the Industrial Training Act, 1967.
This is the first opportunity I have had of congratulating the Minister on his appointment. No doubt it will take us some time to assess his attitude to various aspects of education. I am not too clear on his reply. What I wanted to ascertain was whether he was aware that a new apprenticeship board was established, with one representative only of the Department of Education, without any consultation with the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee who cater for 5,500 apprentices. They were not informed that that committee had been established or of its membership. Will the Minister say whether the Department of Education are interested in the education elements of apprenticeship and how much of that education element will remain in the reduced two or three-year apprenticeship?
I will examine the point the Deputy made in regard to the apprenticeship board established. I do not have the relevant information but I will check on it for the Deputy.
If I may be permitted to make this general comment: at this early stage in the Department I am not comfortable with the relationship obtaining, or the demarcation line between the Department and FÁS in that I see a need to tidy it up. Certainly neither I nor the Minister for Labour will tolerate turf wars between the Department and FÁS which would be negative. In that respect the Minister for Labour and I will have discussions at ministerial level, to be followed up by our officials, in order to ensure full co-ordination between the Department and FÁS. However, at the end of the day, it does not matter that much whether it be the Department or FÁS who carry out a particular task. What is important is that the recipients of that service get the best possible service whoever happens to provide it.
May I be permitted to follow up some of the points the Minister made. What I am talking about is the difference between skills training, educational training and craftsmanship. Will the Minister investigate this aspect? Is he aware that there are advertisements in London seeking straight wall bricklayers, at a lower rate of pay but that, when there is need for a bricklayer to turn a wall or build a pier, they get Irish "brickies" to undertake the task at a very high rate of pay because they are craftsmen. That is what the British system has done to apprenticeship, what I predict the FÁS training scheme will do to apprenticeship. That is why I ask the Minister to examine this very carefully. We must remember that, generally speaking, apprentices are young people participating in an educational scheme, not merely learning a skill to know how to build one brick on top of another, but rather to be educated so that they can avail of a higher level of education later if they wish, which they do under the provisions of the present scheme.
I agree with the Deputy, it is absolutely essential that we maintain the standards of skill of our crafts people. There is no question of the Department of Education backing out of this. Rather they will play a full role in upholding the quality of Irish crafts people. However, I am determined to sort out these silly turf wars between the Department of Education and FÁS, or between any agencies and Government Departments which, in the end, are negative and do not lead to any progress.
