Gerry Reynolds
Question:6 Mr. G. Reynolds asked the Minister for Social Welfare when a social security agreement will be finalised between Ireland and the USA; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Ireland-USA Social Security Agreement.
I signed a bilateral Social Security Agreement between Ireland and the United States of America in Washington on 14 April 1992.
I welcome this agreement which will give pensions to people who have worked and paid social security contributions in both Ireland and the United States of America. In the first few years alone some 1,500 people will receive pensions from both Ireland and the United States of America and the number will continue to grow each year after that. This agreement will ensure that our emigrants have the protection of the social welfare system for old age contributory pension, retirement pension, widow's contributory allowance and death grant in Ireland and similar benefits in the United States of America.
In addition to protecting pension entitlements, the agreement also contains provisions to determine the country to which employment contributions are payable where workers are temporarily seconded to work in Ireland or the United States. These provisions will ensure that double liability for social insurance contributions does not arise.
The agreement will shortly be submitted to Dáil Éireann for approval. It is expected that it will come into operation in late 1993, when the constitutional and legal requirements on both sides have been completed.
The attendant publicity surrounding the announcement of the signing of this unilateral agreement was favourable on the part of many people nationwide who had experienced many problems in this area over many years. I sincerely hope this latest proposal will free up the system. In the case of Irish nationals who may have worked in America for short periods a long time ago — I am thinking of people who may have worked six, seven or eight years there 15 or 20 years ago — what will this new agreement mean to them? In the case of people who may have paid into the social security systems in both countries, if it is found that they have over-subscribed, will the Minister say whether it will be possible for them to recoup some of their contributions whenever they are of no use to them?
To answer the first question posed by Deputy Connaughton, the purpose of this Bilateral Social Security agreement is to cover the people he mentioned earlier, say, people who may have worked in the United States many years ago for four or six years, who would not have built up sufficient entitlements under the United States law in respect of social welfare entitlements there, who would have returned to Ireland and are now working here. This agreement effectively will take into account the social security record of a person, when he or she worked in the United States, including the period for which they worked here; those two contributory periods will be amalgamated, so that they will receive a pro rata pension from the United States or one from here, or a mix of both. The purpose of this agreement, which is quite detailed, is that nobody who may have paid contributions will lose out by having worked in the United States or here. It should considerably benefit the people to whom the Deputy referred.
In regard to this reciprocal arrangement, would the Minister say whether the same penalty clause is provided as applies in the case of EC countries, whereby a person who works in the United Kingdom or any other EC member state, returns here and signing on for unemployment benefit, has to show proof of a minimum of one working stamp on their insurance record here before they can qualify for benefit? Has that penalty been included in this reciprocal agreement?
In order that people will not be confused about this agreement I should point out that basically it relates to retirements and survivor pensions. The requirement to which the Deputy has referreed has given rise to considerable confusion in the case of people who worked in England and who have returned here. I have heard much about this requirement and it will be examined by my Department. This agreement relates to old age contributory pensions, retirement pensions, widows' pensions, etc. The matter to which the Deputy referred is not addressed in this agreement. This agreement is not similar to the agreement operated within the European Community; this is a social security agreement covering pensions, etc.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): May I ask the Minister if a minimum contribution has to be made under either system? Obviously different systems are operated in Ireland and the United States and there are different retirement ages. Will an average contribution have to be worked out? In other words, how many contributions must one have to get a minimum pro rata pension?
I would have to get additional information for the Deputy on the exact details. An Irish person in the United States has, effectively, to have worked for ten years before he can get any kind of a pension — it is referred to there as 40 quarters. I am not claiming to be an expert in this area but many people have not worked for that length of time. Deputy Connaughton referred to a person who has worked for six years. The contributions that person made during those years do not entitle him to receive anything under present United States law. This will have to be taken into account in deciding whether a person should get a pro rata pension in the United States or here, or whether they should be mixed together and paid in one country.
This agreement will also be of considerable benefit to the few thousand United States pensioners living here. When this agreement comes into effect, they will also become eligible for a range of benefit schemes here — for example, free travel — which do not exist in the United States. Another advantage of the agreement is that it is not only Irish people who will benefit; when the agreement comes into effect United States pensioners living here will qualify for a range of other benefits.
Can the Minister tell the House whether the plight of illegal emigrants working in the United States was considered in any great depth during the negotiations on this reciprocal agreement? Can he confirm whether an illegal emigrant who worked in the United States for some years will be able to buy into one of the pension schemes here when he returns in order to compensate him for the years he worked illegally in the United States?
I am afraid not. People who are working illegally in the United States do not come within the social security system and are not covered by this agreement. I take the point the Deputy has made. The problem of illegal emigrants in the United States should resolve itself in time with the issuing of the Morrison visas. As I said, I take the Deputy's point but nothing can be done about this problem because the people to whom he referred are not part of any system. I am afraid these people will not benefit under this agreement.