Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1992

Vol. 421 No. 1

Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Supplementary Welfare Allowance Regulations.

Pat Rabbitte

Question:

9 Mr. Rabbitte asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will amend supplementary welfare allowance regulations to deal with the anomalous situation highlighted by the postal dispute, whereby the spouses and children of workers whose wages were not paid for several weeks were denied supplementary welfare allowance because they were still technically in employment, while the dependants of workers who were suspended qualified for support; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. McCreevy

The entitlement of a person involved in a trade dispute to a payment of supplementary welfare allowance is governed by section 203 of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1981. This section provides that a person who is without employment by reason of a stoppage of work due to a trade dispute at his place of employment is not entitled to an allowance in his own right but may be paid an allowance in respect of his dependants. Persons in employment are not entitled to supplementary welfare allowance.

During the recent postal dispute, which affected postal employees in the Eastern Health Board area, the board refused to pay supplementary welfare allowance to persons who remained full-time employees of An Post but who were not paid because of the problems which arose in their wages department. The board took the view that these employees were precluded from receipt of supplementary welfare on foot of section 202 (1) of the Act and that the problem was an administrative one between them and their employers.

Amendment of the legislation, to include persons who are in employment, would have major financial implications for the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. I have no plans at present to introduce such an amendment.

Mr. Byrne

I cannot for the life of me understand why amendment of the legislation to include persons who are in employment would have major financial implications for the supplementary welfare allowance scheme as repayments are recouped by the Department when the salaries are ultimately released to the workers. I ask the Minister to elaborate further on the financial implications to which he refers. As the Minister is aware, during the recent dispute in An Post 700-800 employees worked normally. These workers are entitled to their salaries in any case. However, the families of these workers had to go hungry in the meantime and their mortgage repayments accumulated. Does the Minister not agree that the wives and families of postal workers who went to work for three or four weeks and got no wages and the lives and families of postal workers who were suspended have the same requirements? The supplementary welfare allowance scheme should be amended to eliminate this anomaly.

Mr. McCreevy

The supplementary welfare allowance scheme caters for cases of exceptional need. There is provision under the scheme to allow payments to be made to dependants of striking workers, which the Eastern Health Board did during the recent dispute. However, the workers do not receive a payment. I do not intend to change the legislation in this regard. I am open to being convinced in regard to different aspects of life but I am not convinced that it would be appropriate to amend the 1981 Act to get over the problems to which the Deputy has referred. The dependants of workers are covered and the health board can make payments to them but not to the workers on strike. As I have said, I have not been convinced that I should amend the legislation.

Mr. Bell

This is an ongoing problem; every time there is a dispute there is a problem with the payment of supplementary welfare allowances. Irrespective of what the 1981 Act says, I suggest to the Minister that the wife and children of a worker should automatically be covered once a strike takes place, and any question of qualification should be taken up by the spouse of the striking worker by applying to the employment exchange. Will the Minister consider those proposals?

Mr. McCreevy

I am open to considering many suggestions made by Deputy Bell. However, I believe appropriate questions in this regard could be put down to the Minister for Labour and other appropriate Ministers.

Mr. Bell

That is the problem.

Mr. McCreevy

This is a problem for other Departments also. It would be wrong for me to say that I will amend the Act in this regard when I will not.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I find it difficult to understand how persons can be deprived of wages even though they are at work and why they are not entitled to a supplementary welfare allowance. Is that correct?

Mr. McCreevy

The relevant health board will not pay supplementary welfare allowance to a worker on strike but they will pay an allowance to his dependants.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): If an employee continues to go to work even though a strike has been called, surely he is entitled to get his money? The supplementary welfare allowance is paid in emergency cases. Is a person who comes off the live register and sets up his own business which runs into difficulty entitled to receive a supplementary welfare allowance?

Mr. McCreevy

The supplementary welfare allowance scheme was set up to cater for the exceptional needs of people. Even though many supplementary welfare allowance payments are made when there are delays in the issuing of cheques by the Department of Social Welfare, I am endeavouring to get back to the situation where supplementary welfare allowances will only be paid in cases of exceptional need. Community welfare officers pay supplementary welfare allowance to people in substitution for social welfare payments. When these people eventually get their money the amount they receive by way of a supplementary welfare allowance has to be subtracted. There is a great deal of bureaucracy in this system. Community welfare officers have the power to pay supplementary welfare allowances in cases of exceptional need.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Does a person have to be unemployed?

Mr. McCreevy

He has to be in difficulty.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Byrne for a final question.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister has not explained the major financial implications involved in amending the legislation. I am talking about the families of 700-800 employees who were deprived of an income even though these employees were at work. Does the Minister not accept that these are cases of exceptional need? In any event, repayments are made to the Department once a dispute is settled. Where do the major financial implications arise?

Mr. McCreevy

The Eastern Health Board made payments to the dependants——

Mr. Byrne

They made payments to the dependants of employees who were suspended. I am not talking about the employees who were suspended——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Minister's reply without interruption.

Mr. McCreevy

The question of the payment of allowances during a trade dispute has been discussed for a number of years by various Ministers for Social Welfare and Ministers for Labour. No Minister has yet been convinced, and neither am I convinced, about changes in this regard. The whole area of trade dispute legislation is separate from the social welfare question and it should be left to the Department of Labour and experts in that area. Perhaps the Irish Congress of Trade Unions will convince me and other Ministers that changes should be made but unless I am greatly convinced by the people in the House and outside it, I do not agree that changes should be made.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister was happy to see 700 postal workers go hungry.