It is proposed to take Nos. 19 and 20. It is also proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the Order of Business shall be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. The proceedings of the Report and Final Stages of Nos. 19 and 20 if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m. respectively by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Education, Private Members' Business shall be No. 26 and shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal that business be interrupted at 10.30 p.m. agreed? Agreed.
Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 19 and 20 satisfactory and agreed?
No. I protest at the way in which these two measures are being guillotined. It appears to be the policy of this Government to guillotine all legislation going through the House. Not alone are those two Bills being guillotined today but they were also guillotined on Committee Stage. I see the Whip passing the Taoiseach a note pointing out the number of hours and the number of amendments and so on——
Correctly so.
——but that does not fool me. The Committee Stages of these Bills were guillotined and now the Report Stage is being guillotined even though there are a considerable number of amendments down. We are not accepting it.
I object to the taking of these Bills in this manner. It is rather ironic that we are taking these Bills in this haphazard manner at a time when we have published the Green Paper on Education. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Education might accept my suggestion that it would be far more constructive if these Bills were put back until the autumn in the context of the debate on the Green Paper. Forty amendments to the original Bill were drafted and put in at short notice. There has not been adequate time for debate and that is not in the best interest of education.
I am sure everyone, including the Taoiseach, must be weary of the litany of complaint about how legislation is dealt with in this House. It is time the House put itself in order and found a way to deal adequately with important Bills. We object to the way in which these important Bills are being dealt with.
I am putting the question——
Perhaps the Taoiseach would like to reply.
A long number of hours have been spent on these Bills. These Bills have been around since——
(Interruptions.)
Do not be hypocritical.
I am putting the question: "That the proposals for dealing with Nos. 19 and 20 be agreed to."
Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 61.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Vincent.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Frank.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Hyland, Liam.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kelly, Laurence.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P. J.
- Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Roche, Dick.
- Smith, Michael.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Wilson, John P.
- Woods, Michael.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Belton, Louis J.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Connor, John.
- Cotter, Bill.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Doyle, Joe.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Enright, Thomas W.
- Farrelly, John V.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavangh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Howlin.
Question declared carried.
Following that vote, might I point out that more than half the legislation passed in this session has been subject to a guillotine? This House cannot——
I am sorry, Deputy Barry, but the item has now been disposed of.
I have something important to say. This House will not run efficiently if the Government continue their attitude towards it. This is not a machine; this is a House of the Oireachtas.
Speech making on the Order of Business is not in order.
I want to tell the Government that the Fine Gael Party will be reviewing the normal co-operation——
I have a final proposal to put to the House.
I should like the Taoiseach to listen to this because it is important.
Please, Deputy Barry.
As and from today, Fine Gael will be reviewing the normal co-operation that exists between the Government and this party.
I ask whether the proposal for dealing with No. 26, Private Members' Business, this evening is satisfactory and agreed to. Agreed.
I wish to ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health, who was in the Chamber a short time ago, to explain to the House the extraordinary delay taken by the Government in producing the document circulated in our post this morning called the "Health (Family Planning) (Amendment) Bill, 1991" taking into consideration the fact that it makes virtually no advance on the general law with regard to the availability of contraceptives. Could the Taoiseach offer some explanation to the House as to why the legislation has taken a year to be produced and yet we have been presented with such a Bill?
There will be time for dealing with the Bill that the Deputy has in his possession. That time is not now. I call on Deputy Mervyn Taylor.
I raise a point of order. I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, I merely rise to ask the Taoiseach a question.
Please obey the Chair, Deputy.
The House deserves some explanation. The Government circulated a Bill a year ago to amend the law on contraceptives. We are now left hanging with this ridiculous proposal.
I repeat that there will be time to discuss that matter. Deputy McCartan must now desist. I have called Deputy Mervyn Taylor.
This House is being held up to ridicule.
On the Order of Business, could I raise the matter of the answerability in this House of the Minister for Energy on issues relating to the supply of natural gas? I point out to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that one month ago the Minister for Energy accepted and replied to a question asked by me in this House about the supply of natural gas in Tallaght; yet he and his Department yesterday turned down a request to discuss that matter on the Adjournment. How are we ordering our business in this House when the Minister does answer a question yet refuses to accept that it can be discussed on the Adjournment?
I am sorry, Deputy Taylor. I think the Deputy would agree that the Chair and his office have strived to facilitate him in this matter.
It is not a matter of being facilitated. It is a matter of the ordering of business of the House. Either the Minister answers questions——
The matter does not arise now, Deputy Taylor.
It is a matter on the Order of Business that concerns the ordering of business of this House. It is a matter as to whether or not those issues are dealt with by the Minister. On the one hand, four weeks ago he answered a question on the subject, and on the other hand yesterday he refused to accept an adjournment debate on the most important issue of the supply of natural gas to one of the major estates in Tallaght.
I have given the Deputy's request serious consideration and I sympathise with him in his dilemma.
I know you do, a Cheann Comhairle, but now can the Minister answer a question on the issue if it is not the concern of his Department? The Minister cannot have it both ways.
I call Deputy Quinn.
I understand that last week it was decided that the Roads Bill on Committee Stage would be referred to a Select Committee. You may recall that I asked the Taoiseach at that stage if he would inquire as to whether adequate resources would be made available through the Houses of the Oireachtas to staff and report the proceedings of that Select Committee. I wonder whether the Taoiseach is now in a position to confirm that that Select Committee can commence their work and that the proceedings will be adequately reported.
I have referred that matter to the Department of Finance so that it may be adjudicated on. I shall be in touch with the Deputy during the day.
Could I ask the Taoiseach whether in his referral to the Department of Finance he requested the Department to ensure that the resources are made available, because the officials in the Department of Finance have—as the Taoiseach is no doubt aware from his previous tenure of that office — very strict riding instructions to make no additional resources available to this House and a simple referral without a request from his august office will get the kind of reply that we are all used to from the Department of Finance?
That issue should not give rise to debate now.
My question is: has the referral attached to it a request from the Taoiseach to facilitate the resources necessary?
Has he asked the Tá naiste to make a phone call?
Every aspect of Government expenditure has to live within its own limits, and within those limits the matter is being examined.
Could I ask the Taoiseach when the promised Wildlife Bill to replace the 1976 Act will be introduced?
The text of that Bill is being prepared.
Is the Taoiseach concerned, as the House is about to go into recess, that the record of suicides in Irish prisons is extraordinarily high by any international comparison? I understand that in this House legislation has been promised on prison reform. When may we hope that legislation designed to reform the prison regulations or the conditions in prisons will be introduced? When will the recommendations of the commission be implemented?
This is not in order. Deputy Moynihan.
I am sorry, I did not hear the Taoiseach's reply.
The Deputy will have to raise that matter in another way.
I assure you, Sir, I have the greatest respect for your rulings but it is either a fact or not a fact that legislation on prison reform has been promised in this House.
Let us ascertain then, if legislation in that area has been promised in this House.
As I understand it, the Deputy is referring to regulations.
Yes. The regulations, the Taoiseach may or may not know, derive from the basic prison legislation. In promising to change the regulations——
I cannot permit regulations being raised. Legislation, yes, regulations, no.
To change the regulations requires an Act of this Legislature. That was promised. Are we going to continue with the situation where we have this appalling record of suicides in our prisons?
There are many ways of raising the matter, Deputy Higgins.
It is in order.
No, it is not in order. You are referring to regulations.
I am referring to legislation regarding regulations and the commitment made in this House.
I understand you are referring to regulations.
I am referring to legislation governing the prison regulations.
Let us clarify the matter.
As I understand it, the Deputy is referring to regulations. I will have the matter examined and we will be in touch with the Deputy during the day.
I would like to ask the Taoiseach when it is proposed to introduce legislation to abolish ground rents. It is already promised.
It is at a very preliminary stage.
Is the Taoiseach aware that officers of the Office of Public Works are at present investigating the restoration of ground rents on private properties in Killarney? Will he give expression to his opposition to any such policy?
I would prefer it if the Deputy would table a question in regard to that matter.
I seek your permission to raise it on the Adjournment.
Yes, that is the Deputy's privilege. I shall certainly look at it.
I want to raise an issue I hope the Taoiseach will respond to. Yesterday I sought detailed information about the moneys paid to the State by the Bar Council barristers for use of very extensive facilities in the Four Courts. I received a reply to my question which indicated that only a nominal payment was made and there are two agreements with the Commissioners of Public Works dated July 1968 and April 1987.
Sorry, Deputy Shatter, what has this to do with the Order of Business.
Is the Taoiseach willing to lodge those agreements in the Dáil office?
I am afraid the Deputy will have to raise that in another way. Quite evidently it is not one for the Order of Business.
I have tabled a specific question for next week in that regard and I am concerned, as I tabled the question for this week, you may rule it out of order.
Try me, Deputy.
(Interruptions.)
In regard to the circulated Bill on amendments to the family planning laws, given the brevity of the legislation and the inordinate period of time we have waited for this very disappointing document to be circulated, can the Taoiseach indicate when it will be taken for Second Stage debate? In view of the very disappointing context——
When will the measure be taken?
With the co-operation of all the parties in the House we will take it very soon.
(Interruptions.)
A Cheann Comhairle——
Please, Deputy McCartan, I have to dissuade the Deputy against the notion that he may raise just anything on the Order of Business. That is not so.
The Taoiseach has given a very clear indication. If he is prepared to deal with the matter next week there will be co-operation from this side of the House.
Does "very soon" mean next week?
The Whips can discuss it and agree it if possible.
Sir, I seek your assistance on a question I tabled to the Taoiseach in relation to his signing, when Minister for Finance, an agreement to increase European funding to nuclear installations. That question was transferred to the Minister for Energy. Last night the Minister for Energy informed the House that he had no responsibilities for the action of the Taoiseach, then Minister for Finance.
The Deputy will have further opportunity of deliberating on that matter. The measure is before the House.
This is a specific issue. I tabled a question to the Taoiseach asking him to account for his action in signing an agreement to expand European funding for nuclear power stations and reprocessing plants. That was transferred to the Minister for Energy. The Minister for Energy last night informed the House that he was not responsible and refused to answer that question. If a legitimate question is tabled let me ask you, Sir, to ensure that whoever is responsible will answer it.
I have had to make it clear to the House on many occasions that I am not responsible for the transfer of questions. That is an internal matter for the Taoiseach and his Cabinet.
(Interruptions.)
It is not the transfer of questions I object to. I would have been quite happy if the Minister for Energy had answered. It is the refusal of the Minister for Energy to answer the question transferred to him——
If Deputies are dissatisfied with Ministers' actions they have a remedy. There are many ways of dealing with the matter in this House.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, in relation to the same matter, I have just been on the telephone to the Questions Office, after reinstating my question to the Taoiseach which went the same rounds as did questions from a number of my colleagues. I would like the Taoiseach to take this opportunity to clarify his willingness to answer this question in view of the refusal of the Minister for Energy to answer it.
This is not the time for dealing with such matters. The matter is still before the House.
The Taoiseach is desperately kicking for touch on many issues.
Let me ask the Taoiseach and, more importantly, his Minister for Justice, if he can ensure a more visible presence of gardaí on the beat and a concentration——
Please desist, Deputy. That is clearly not in order.
(Interruptions.)