It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 11. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that; (1) Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 shall be decided without debate; (2) the following arrangements shall apply to the resumed debate on No. 11: (i) the speech of each Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes except the speech of the Taoiseach which shall not exceed 30 minutes and (ii) Members may share time; (3) statements shall be made at 3.50 p.m. on the Greencore matter and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening statement of the Minister or Minister of State, and of the main Opposition spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called on shall not exceed five minutes in each case and (iii) the Minister or Minister of State shall be called on not later than 4.45 p.m. to make a statement in reply. Private Members Business shall be No. 16.
Order of Business.
May I ask if the proposal that Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 shall be decided without debate is satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the time limits proposed in respect of the budget debate, that is No. 11, agreed? Agreed.
In regard to Nos. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8, may I ask the Taoiseach whether it is proposed to appoint a women's affairs committee?
The answer is "yes".
The Taoiseach has changed his mind. A women's affairs committee was not mentioned in the programme for Government.
Are the proposals in respect of time limits for the budget debate satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with statements on the Greencore matter satisfactory and agreed?
I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business, to substitute 11 a.m. for 3.50 p.m. in respect of the statements on the Greencore matter. It seems pointless to proceed with a debate on the budget when uncertainty exists in regard to one of the crucial elements of the budget arithmetic which is whether or not there are to be receipts from the sale of Greencore. In view of the fact that the prospectus upon which people bought shares in Greencore stated that no more than 15 per cent would be held by any one owner, the Government's budget seems now to be in conflict with legislation and the prospectus establishing Greencore.
Let us not get into detail now.
I am moving my amendment because there is no point in discussing the budget until we have clarity on this issue.
I support the amendment moved by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party to giving additional time to this important issue. I wish to express my concern that the Taoiseach seemed to attempt to mislead the House yesterday with regard to a decision already made by the Government when he sought to tell the House that no decision had been made. It is a very serious matter for a Member of this House to attempt to mislead but it is particularly serious for the Taoiseach to attempt to do so. I rise specifically to seek to amend the Order of Business in regard to another matter. I seek to amend No. 3 to read, that statements on the Greencore matter shall be made at 11 a.m., as proposed by the Fine Gael Leader, and that statements on the Kilkenny incest case be made at 4.45 p.m. so that this House will have an opportunity not only to debate the Greencore matter today but also the Kilkenny incest case, between 4.45 p.m. and 7 p.m.
In respect of the latter matter referred to by the Deputy, he may not introduce new matter as distinct from the proposals made by the Taoiseach, whose prerogative it is to propose specific matters. The rape matter must be dealt with in another way.
I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that in June 1987 we debated a case not dissimilar to this case — it was a rape case — when there was much public outcry about the outcome of the case and there was agreement across the floor that the matter should be debated. The Taoiseach so far has refused to allow such a debate here. You urged us yesterday to seek ways of raising this matter in an orderly way, and that is what I am trying to do here this morning. I am seeking to get the Taoiseach to agree——
It cannot be done in the manner and method you mentioned, Deputy.
I am seeking to get the Taoiseach to agree to allow this House to debate an issue which is of great concern to many people outside this House.
Perhaps I could be of help in solving this issue. The Government has already instructed the Minister for Justice to bring forward at the earliest possible opportunity an amendment in this area of criminal law to ensure stiffer sentencing. Perhaps that will solve the problem this morning.
No, it does not. This House is being denied the opportunity to express its views on the matter.
I am afraid we cannot continue this argument now.
This matter is just as important as the Greencore matter which we will debate here today.
There are ways and means of dealing with that matter.
Would the Taoiseach agree to bring forward the Greencore debate to 11 a.m. so that it is taken in advance of the budget debate?
I do not understand the points made by Deputy Bruton. First, the Government has made no decision in relation to this specific offer and it has not negotiated——
Only because the Labour Party stopped it.
We would like the matter to be clarified.
There is a Cabinet meeting this morning.
Please——
Deputy Bell would like the matter clarified.
When I ask for attention from the Opposition benches, some little attention would be helpful. If Deputy Dukes gave me some attention, he might understand what I am saying.
A Deputy
Does the Taoiseach understand it himself?
Please. When the Taoiseach intervenes, please hear what he has to say without constant interruptions.
First, the Government is not in negotiations with anybody. That will correct Deputy Bruton's first statement. Second, the budgetary figures are not in danger. The debate on the budget will be resumed immediately and the Deputy can refer all he likes to that matter. There were statements on Digital last week, which were quite satisfactory, and I see no reason why the same arrangements cannot apply this evening. The debate on the budget will go on for most of the day but if the Opposition want five minutes more or something like that I do not have any problem.
Sir, could I——
Please, Deputy, I am putting the question quite promptly. We cannot have a debate on the substantive matter now.
The purpose of my amendment is twofold, if I may say so.
The House can decide on these amendments——
May I make a point to the Taoiseach which may be helpful? The purpose of my amendment is twofold. First, it will allow this matter to be discussed before the debate on the budget is resumed and, second, it will allow more time for statements. The Government is allowing only one hour for the debate on this subject this evening. It seems to me that this is quite inadequate in view of the complexity of the matter and the fact that the Cabinet seems to be leaking all over the place on this issue. May I suggest to the Taoiseach that he might allow a longer debate so that all of those who are making unattributable remarks about what they said to people on the phone, etc., will be able to come into the House and speak about it and, if necessary, give us transcripts of these phone calls?
I suppose the Deputy will be asking for a tape recorder shortly.
I have no problem with giving an extra hour for the debate, if that will satisfy the House. First, I want to demonstrate that the Cabinet is totally unanimous in its approach to this matter.
Is that what the Taoiseach will be telling the Labour Party?
It is on the front page of the Irish Independent——
Maybe that could not be said for the commercial interests involved; maybe that is a different story. As I said, the Cabinet is absolutely unanimous in its approach to this matter. If this matter could be settled——
What about the group of 22?
Every time I stand up to say something or explain something there is a rush of noisy voices from the far side of the House.
Does that upset the Taoiseach?
If the extension of the debate by an hour will save time by avoiding a division in the House, I am prepared to offer it to the Deputies opposite.
If you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen.
Sir——
Order.
——the Taoiseach has offered us an extra hour——
Can I refer this matter to the Whips for consideration?
In view of the fact that the Taoiseach has offered us an extra hour, I will withdraw my amendment to the Order of Business.
Is the suggestion that the debate on Greencore conclude at 5.45 p.m. satisfactory. Agreed.
I wish to speak on behalf of those in the Government who are not unanimous on this issue.
Has the Deputy got a card already?
Are we meant to smile at this stage?
A schizophrenic Labour Party.
The Taoiseach has just put on the record of the House the fact that the budgetary arithmetic does not depend on the sale of these assets. Is it not a fact that the Exchequer borrowing requirement, predicted at £760 million, cannot be met——
Please, Deputy Rabbitte, the budget debate is about to resume and Members will have ample opportunity of giving vent——
It is an important point of fact.
——to the various views they wish to express on the matter. Deputy McManus has been on her feet for some time.
Is the Taoiseach not concerned at the message going out to the public today that the sale of shares in Greencore, important as it is, is being given primacy today while the torture and sexual abuse of children is not being given time today? Is he not concerned at the message this gives to the public, who are extremely concerned at what is happening in our courts?
Please, Deputy McManus, I ruled on that matter earlier.
The Deputy will have an opportunity in a minute to do something about that.
Could I rule——
The Deputy cannot rule.
Fine Gael will rule one day, the Deputy should not worry about that.