Vol. 428 No. 6
11 Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Enterprise and Employment when he expects the suggested target, referred to in the Report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, of 10 per cent of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women will be reached.
13 Mr. Currie asked the Minister for Enterprise and Employment when he expects the suggested target, referred to in the Report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, of 10 per cent of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women will be reached.
29 Mrs. Owen asked the Minister for Enterprise and Employment when he expects the suggested target, referred to in the Report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, of 10 per cent of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women will be reached.
34 Mr. Crowley asked the Minister for Enterprise and Employment when he expects the suggested target, referred to in the Report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, of 10 per cent of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women will be reached.
58 Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for Enterprise and Employment when he expects the suggested target, referred to in the Report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women of 10 per cent of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women will be reached.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 11, 13, 29, 34 and 58 together.
Under the new apprenticeship system agreed in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, and contained in the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-1997, responsibility for recruitment of apprentices will rest with employers, subject to agreed minimum educational standards being achieved by the potential apprentice.
The National Apprenticeship Advisory Committee of FÁS are currently addressing the issue of special provision for entry to apprenticeships for women. One of the key aims of the new apprenticeships system as agreed within the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is to increase the number of apprentices in the currently designated trades and that in addition further trades should be designated for apprenticeship thereby increasing the numbers further.
FÁS have advised that a 10 per cent target of all apprenticeships to be taken up by women is unlikely to be achieved in the short-term within the current range of designated occupations.
I would like to assure the Deputies that I will be making it a priority within my area of responsibility to increase the number of apprenticeships which are taken up by women.
I thank the Minister for her reply. Will the Minister tell the House how many female apprentices are included in the current body of apprentices and what percentage of places do those females represent? What additional area of designation does the Minister have in mind to increase the number of women taking up apprenticeship places to 10 per cent?
The number of registered apprentices at the end of 1992 was 13,632 and the number of women apprentices at that time was 196.
What percentage is that?
Almost 1.4 per cent. I accept it is absurd and freely admit that the number of female apprentices in the system up to the end of 1992——
How many are in the midwest?
Deputy Carey should permit me to continue. From 1989 to 1992, the number increased from 0.8 per cent to 1.4 per cent. I accept it is a feeble increase. One of my main priorities in the new apprenticeship system will be to ensure that more women are recruited through the bursary system which is presently in operation and I will be persuading schools, parents and employers that women are as useful as men in the traditionally recognised apprenticeship areas.
In regard to Deputy Owen's question on the extension of the designated trades to include more apprenticeships, the sub-committee of FÁS dealing with apprenticeships is discussing that matter and will report back to me. That committee is considering some interesting proposals. It is clearly the wish of the Government, expressed through the Programme for Government, that there should be an ever-widening application of apprenticeships, programme training and so on, into what would not up to now have been regarded as traditional areas of apprenticeship. Parents, employers and young people now demand structured training where they can obtain national and internationally recognised certificates leading to a qualification. I am very interested in this area and intend to develop it further.
I would like to confirm those figures with the Minister. Did the Minister say that of the 13,632 apprenticeships taken up in 1992, only 196 were taken up by females?
Yes.
Will the Minister explain why it is unlikely that FÁS will achieve the 10 per cent target in the near future? What does she mean by "the near future" and what will her future be? Can the Minister say that by 1994 this figure will have doubled, trebled or quadrupled?
Deputy Owen asked me what my future will be and I regret I cannot answer that.
The Minister has completed her apprenticeship.
It will be a quiet future.
We will talk about the future of apprenticeships. I share the Deputy's amazement at the figures. That percentage of female apprenticeships is absurd considering the number of affirmative programmes being implemented in the traditional areas. I hope to change that position as soon as possible. In regard to FÁS not being able to attain the 10 per cent target in the short term, the Deputy must admit that an increase from 1 per cent to 10 per cent will be a major step but I will be insisting that the future lies in a combination of affirmative programmes for the traditional areas plus a widening of the designation of the trade areas.
How was the 10 per cent figure, referred to in the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, arrived at? Surely the Minister is aware that in reality many apprenticeships are not conducive to females and that the number of apprenticeships to which a female can apply is restricted? With our high unemployment level and many people seeking apprenticeships, employers will have a say in relation to the people they employ. Are there any incentives for employers to employ females as opposed to males?
Deputy Owen is shaking her fist.
Is Deputy Finucane not an interesting man?
Will the Minister tell me of any female apprentice blocklayer?
Let us hear the Minister of State.
I never thought that lurking within the Deputy's massive chest was a chauvinistic heart.
It is realism. I worked with FÁS for ten years and I know the position just as the Minister is familiar with the education system.
The fact that the Deputy worked with FÁS for ten years is admirable, but surely that is proof positive that the type of chauvinistic attitude he is expressing here——
It is not chauvinistic, it is realistic. The 10 per cent is a nonsense and the Minister knows that.
Behind Deputy Finucane, Deputy Owen is——
I will stand up for myself. I live in the real world, not in Disneyland and I adopt the principle of realism, not idealism.
Question Time is becoming very untidy.
Deputy Finucane might be parting company with his constituency colleague.
Deputy Finucane will have to restrain himself.
Deputy Finucane asked a question to which I want to reply.
On a point of order, could Deputy Finucane be formally rebuked for being politically incorrect?
By his Deputy Leader.
The House is committed to equality. We have all accepted the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women and we had an interesting debate on it. All parties agree with the principle of that report. I do not know of and do not intend to encourage any belief that there are occupations in life to which women are not suited.
Hear, hear.
It is a reality.
(Laoighis-Offaly): In deference to the views Deputy Finucane may have accumulated on the basis of his experience, will the Minister agree that training organisations such as FÁS, have made particular efforts and have been relatively successful in recent years in encouraging women to take up direct apprenticeship programmes, particularly through the pre-apprenticeship scheme? Will she agree also that, notwithstanding that success, we have a continuing difficulty with the non-acceptance of women apprentices in the workplace and that something needs to be done through the business and employer organisations to ensure that this blockage is removed and the situation dramatically improved?
I thank the Deputy for his question. The situation has improved. FÁS has made real efforts but they have not been strong enough and have not received sufficient backing from employers. Stronger affirmative action must be directed at employers and the expectations of teachers and young people must be raised in this regard.
May I ask the Minister if the 10 per cent target will also apply to the semi-State sector where there was a considerable amount of apprenticeship training in the past? I am talking in particular about the Electricity Supply Board, Telecom Éireann, Aer Lingus, Irish Rail and the Air Corps, which is the responsibility of the Minister for Defence.
The proposals in the report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, the basis of Deputy Owen's question, related to apprenticeships right across the board. I have outlined the role of FÁS in this area. I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. One of the recommendations which I will take on board is the extension of that encouragement and positive approach in all of the semi-State bodies to which the Deputy referred.
That disposes of questions for today.
