Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1993

Vol. 430 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Refugee Protection Bill, 1993: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

It is regrettable that, although we are debating the Refugee Protection Bill, the attitude of the State to various refugees who come to our shores is to put them on the next plane and get them out of our jurisdiction as quickly as possible. With the opening up of Eastern Europe and the unification of Germany hundreds of thousands of refugees have been pouring into Western Europe, half a million into Germany alone. It would appear that the breakdown of Communism and its consequences was not anticipated politically or socially by the EC.

The increased burdens which such movements of population create have precipitated a call for a concerted response by all European states and by the EC in particular. So far, unfortunately, those states not directly affected by the problem have baulked at assisting their neighbours. The result is that many states least able to cope have huge numbers of refugees within their boundaries. In the light of the escalating problem in the former Yugoslavia alone, the EC's failure to implement a concerted and concerned immigration and asylum policy and plan for the future is short-sighted and might ultimately prejudice the stability of the entire European region.

At the Edinburgh Summit in December 1990 mere platitudes were mouthed about concern for human rights, peace and the termination of armed conflicts etc. The summit expressed its concern that "uncontrolled immigration could be destabilising and could undermine the situation of third country nationals who have legally taken up residency in the member states". However, in relation to dealing with applications for asylum, the Minister resolved, effectively, to return refugees to the first "safe" third country they had been able to reach. This notion of a "safe" country is not only shamelessly unhumanitarian, it also fails to take into consideration the stability and resources of the "safe" country.

When the EC Ministers met recently in Budapest they resolved to crack down on the organised smuggling of illegal immigrants by organised crime, to set up special police units and mobile surveillance forces, to exchange information and to adopt a common code of border checks. What they failed to do was to agree to the German demands for a common code on repatriation and there was absolute reluctance to share the financial burdens of the refugee crisis. The states that are affected by this problem have been ignored by the rest of Europe. They are Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia and, of course, Germany. It is inexcusable that Germany should have accepted 444,000 people last year compareed to 27,500 by France, 24,600 by the UK and so on. Hungary has turned away one million people since 1991.

As stated previously, the EC Commission does not have any real teeth in this area, but Commissioner Pádraig Flynn has promised to come up with some recommendations within the next six weeks. He should take into account some of the following issues in coming to his conclusions. The European Community has been totally impotent in the area of refugees and asylum seekers. There has been a lack of legal basis for taking action and there is a necessity for a supplementary Protocol to the Maastricht Treaty allowing the European Court of Justice jurisdiction in this area. A concerted campaign is required to harmonise the laws in all member states, including Ireland. There should be promotion of the flexibility within the Dublin Convention and the Schengen Agreement to seek that Governments use their discretion in individual cases regarding repatriation or not.

Exclusionary tactics such as maximum quotas, lists of safe countries and restrictions of immigrants to one application for asylum are insensitive and in many cases fly in the face of the conventions on Human Rights. No account is taken of the financial crisis that can accrue for countries who have to cope with an influx of refugees and no account is taken of the implications for fledgeling democracies that have enough problems of their own, such as Poland and Slovakia. There are dangers of instability in the regions, particularly in the Balkan region, which are unable to cope with the burden of refugees at present—and the prospect of a further two million refugees from the Balkan region alone does not bear thinking about.

The implications for the European Community, including Ireland, are noteworthy. Until the EC decides to face the music, it cannot respond properly to the long term refugee problem. Everything the EC has done up to now has been crisis management only. Scare tactics of prophesying increased terrorism, drugs and organised crime are not substantiated and are merely a short term sop. If the EC wants to form a European union within a region surrounded by friendly and stable neighbours it will have to discard its insular attitudes and frame sensible policies on this issue. It must form a policy to assist and integrate immigrants or it will have to share the blame if the potential for unrest spreads. The internal market came into force on 1 January 1993 but this will become a reality only when internal borders of the Community are removed.

The Government should be offering more assistance to refugees and establishing fairer procedures for examining applications for asylum. It should voice its objection to any attempt to create parallel conventions with bordering non-EC states towards throwing a cordon sanitaire around the EC, thus preventing access to any refugees. The Government should be demanding that Commissioner Flynn recommends a concerted and humanitarian response by all EC countries and a sharing of the burden. Above all, the Government could take a major step forward this evening by supporting Deputy Shatter's Bill. All political parties in this House recognise that a problem exists and that this Bill addresses that problem. Therefore, I appeal to the Government, particularly the Labour Party, who have spoken eloquently about this matter in the past, to ensure the passage of this Bill through this House.

I welcome the fact that we have a Bill before us dealing with the protection of refugees and I congratulate Deputy Shatter, who has championed this issue for a long time. I commend also Deputy Carey and Deputies from all sides who have raised this issue from time to time because they have met people seeking asylum and are aware of the problems they face. I have been contacted frequently by Amnesty International on this matter. I compliment that organisation on making this its central area of concern over the past number of years. Last October I raised this matter in the Seanad and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, responded on that occasion also.

This is a broad and complex issue and many of us will have met people seeking asylum on economic and uneconomic grounds. This is an increasing problem in Europe as a whole. Last week the Minister gave the figures for fleeing from persecution people seeking an economic haven combined with asylum. In the ten year period from 1982 to 1992 the figure increased from 64,000 to 700,000 in the European Community. Perhaps this is not a major problem here but it is certainly on our doorstep.

I have had occasion to deal with heart-rending cases of foreign students and doctors whose spouses were refused visas to this country even though those doctors and students had bona fide visas. I have met foreign nationals married to Irish citizens who are being treated as aliens. This is happening regularly. Indeed, those who have been granted asylum are still treated as controlled aliens and must return on a yearly basis to the aliens office, it seems the Department of Justice is unwilling to cut the umbilical cord and wishes to ensure that they are controlled perpetually.

In this debate we are concentrating largely on the procedures for refugees seeking asylum in non-economic circumstances. A definition is given in the legislation produced by Deputy Shatter, in the 1951 UN Convention and in the 1967 Protocol which deals specifically with the matter and defines a refugee as follows:

...a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.

It is ironic that this refers to "outside the country" because when those people are in their own countries we show great consideration, charity, compassion and concern for them when they are starving or persecuted abroad in Bosnia, Somalia or elsewhere. Our humanity and Christianity is boundless and we have a well-deserved reputation in that regard. However, institutionally as soon as one of those people seeks to set foot on this island our humanity goes out the door. In other words, it is nice to be charitable as long as those people stay abroad but if they should try to set foot on this island we treat them with the greatest suspicion and hostility. Very often we imprison them and in almost 99 per cent of cases deport them.

Amnesty International, the organisation most involved, has described the position in Ireland very succinctly in its briefing document:

In Ireland asylum-seekers who make a claim upon arrival at a port of entry are interviewed, often on the same day they arrive, by an immigration officer who receives no special training in international refugee law or the special situation of asylum-seekers. Asylum-seekers at a port of entry are not usually told of their right to legal counsel or their right to contact the UNHCR. Moreover, the decision on their case is usually made by officials in the Department of Justice on the basis of the immigration officers' notes of the interview. These officials, too, have no special knowledge of international refugee law or of conditions in the asylum-seeker's country of origin.

This is particularly damning. I have personal experience of this in at least one instance. A Chinese citizen, Mr. Lau, was involved in the uprising in Tiananmen Square. He was imprisoned there and tortured while in prison.

A Cheann Comhairle, may I indicate at this point that I wish to share my time with Deputy O'Donoghue and Deputy Byrne?

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

I understand that I have 15 minutes.

Partnership Government in practice.

Depending on what the Deputy has to say, partnership in work.

Deputies have half an hour apportioned between them.

This man was imprisoned and tortured and on his release he went on the run and tried to join his sisters in the United Kingdom. However, he was detained by the immigration officers in Ireland who suspected he had a forged passport. He was detained in Fitzgibbon Street Garda Station, which contains two special detention cells for aliens, while his nationality was being established. Arrangements were made for his deportation to Thailand without going through the proper procedures. One of his sisters in the United Kingdom was contacted and, on the advice of a garda, she contacted a solicitor who applied for refugee status for her brother. The man was imprisoned in Mountjoy for seven months until the High Court ordered his release. On request I visited him in Mountjoy and I am, therefore, familiar with the case. This poor man unfortunately broke his journey in Ireland on his way to join his family who were fleeing from torture and imprisonment in the People's Republic of China and on his way to the United Kingdom was subjected to our procedures.

The Minister will say that the procedures have been in place since 1985 but I have experience of them not operating properly. For example, who told this man of his right to contact a lawyer? If the procedures were properly in place the officials should have done so. Did anyone contact the United Nations High Commission for Refugees? No. Why should a person applying for asylum be held in a cell or, indeed, detained in prison for six to eight months? It is no wonder that of the 62 applications for refugee status in 1990, only one was granted. I fear that either officially we cannot be bothered to strictly implement the procedures or, which is even more sinister, we are deliberately preventing people — in an institutionalised, official fashion — from availing of them and to fully exercise their application to remain in this country. Therefore, we need legislation to implement the provisions of the 1951 UN Convention and the 1967 Protocol.

Deputy Shatter's Bill contains the substance of what is required. There is a clear definition in line with the UN Convention and Protocol. The procedures are outlined which involve the Minister and the UNHCR, the right to legal advice and to be informed of same, the right to an interpreter if that is needed — and to be informed of that — and the establishment of an appeals tribunal. Therefore, while I might disagree with aspects of Deputy Shatter's Bill, it has substance.

I am on record as saying in relation to the Suicide Bill that the Government has adopted a Programme for Government which includes issues such as suicide, which should have been decriminalised years ago. The Government should be allowed reasonable time to show its commitment to introducing and implementing this programme but if it does not, obviously legislation from other quarters must be considered.

All Members are entitled to introduce a Private Members' Bill, I regard it as an enabling process to present a personal or national matter of interest. The question remains whether we should proceed to Committee Stage of this Bill or proceed on different lines. The Minister has already indicated he is prepared to ensure that a tribunal is established pending the response from an interdepartmental committee consisting of the Departments of Justice, Foreign Affairs and Enterprise and Employment.

As I said in my opening remarks there is a broader range of issues here apart from seeking asylum on humanitarian grounds. There is the question of people seeking asylum on economic and other grounds. We must have a short timescale for the introduction of suitable legislation to deal with the other problems that may arise. A Bill of this nature should be a priority for the Government but if there is a commitment now that the legislation will be dealt with in a broader context comprising all aspects of the aliens issue, I am prepared to wait for a period to ensure the Government fulfils its commitment in the Programme for Government, namely, that we have legislation to ensure that proper procedures are in place and that everybody attempting to find a safe haven here is allowed to do so.

Just another cop-out by the Labour Party.

At the outset I thank Deputy Costello for sharing his time with me.

Recent events in Eastern Europe have made people throughout the world aware of the serious refugee problem faced by the European Community. It is on a scale that has no precedent since the Second World War. The most effective way to tackle a problem of this gravity is to have co-ordinated, structured action at European Community level. The efforts of individual countries, while useful and important, are no substitute for close co-operation among member states. The Maastricht Treaty provides for such co-operation and for this reason I hope it is ratified as soon as possible. We are all aware that it has been subject to innumerable delays.

The whole concept of asylum is a cornerstone of any State's humanitarian obligation to provide protection to those who are vulnerable, in fear of persecution and in urgent need of sanctuary and shelter. Asylum is a matter of close co-operation, but it cannot be stressed too strongly that emigration is a matter of State sovereignty. The State alone decides if citizens of other states are to be admitted. However, the map of Europe is changing and Europe needs to respond to this change urgently. A complex problem now exists where increasing numbers of asylum seekers have claims which are weak or not genuine. Those people are eroding the functioning of the current system. This problem is further complicated by the Single Market, with no internal border control and with joint external borders are one of its aims. In other member states asylum procedures are overburdened and strained. The Community is faced with a complex and difficult problem and it is not one that lends itself to easy answers or solutions.

I do not wish to paint an overly pessimistic picture but in order to respond to Deputy Shatter's Bill it is necessary to clearly outline the context in which any new legislative measures must function. Before considering any new legislation it is incumbent on the House to carefully consider its knock-on effects and how effectively it might work. For this reason I welcomed the Minister's statement last week and those made by the Minister of State last night in relation to an extensive review of existing procedures and the decision to appoint a retired High Court judge to deal with an appeals procedure. With due respect to Deputy Shatter, I do not believe that introducing new legislation now will serve any useful purpose until this review takes place. It is an absolute prerequisite that the review takes place and to forge ahead without it could in the medium term be counterproductive. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that there is much to admire in Deputy Shatter's Bill. It is timely and can serve only to highlight the problems and serious challenges we face in this area.

I strongly support the thrust and spirit of Deputy Shatter's Bill, although it is not without flaws — not even Deputy Shatter is free of those. It is important that the aforementioned review takes place before any new legislation in this area is introduced. It is important to stress that the Programme for a Partnership Government unambiguously outlines the Government's humanitarian commitment to refugees. I have no doubt that this commitment will be honoured in order, as the programme says: "to meet the highest international standards". If Deputy Shatter's Bill helps this House acquire a level of understanding and to attain this commtment, then it is most welcome and I am sure it will achieve this.

I must take issue with Deputy Shatter in regard to some matters. Statements made in the House last week on the refugee issue may have given some people the impression that there are parties here who have a monopoly on compassion. That cannot be the position, because we are all human beings. I would like to take this opportunity to remind the House that only last year the then Government took in approximately 200 Bosnian refugees. This was a welcome and humanitarian gesture. This Government is sensitive to its humanitarian responsibilities and will act upon them, as the programme for Government clearly outlines. The Government will not shirk those responsibilities but will act upon them in the most effective way possible. While Deputy Shatter's Bill is admirable, it is not effective enough for the serious task in hand.

As has been stated many times from these benches, it is incorrect to suggest that there are practically no procedures governing our international obligations with regard to the processing of applications for refugee status. The existing formal arrangements for dealing with these applications were agreed with the competent agency in the field — the United National Commission for Refugees. Every application is processed in accordance with that agreement and advice is sought on whether the applicant in question qualifies for refugee status in accordance with the 1951 United Nations Convention on the status of refugees. I understand that the Department of Foreign Affairs is also consulted. It is not true to suggest that Department officials are making decisions in this extremely sensitive area. Having researched this matter I understand that every decision on refugee status is made by the Minister for Justice, who relies heavily on the advice of the UNHCR to make that decision.

I would strongly suggest that a programme of retraining should be introduced for our officials in the front line who meet the refugees. I would like to ensure that the officials who meet refugees at airports are well trained to deal with different cases and that they are well informed about the procedures to be followed in dealing with applications for asylum. Emigration officials at our airports should be well versed in our obligations regarding the treatment of refugees and the delicate handling necessary in such cases.

It would be incorrect also to suggest that the system as it operates in this country is particularly draconian. Our system is in accordance with international norms. It would undermine the system if this country were to depart from those norms. Without wishing to appear harsh, there are many people who claim refugee satus without having any basis for doing so. There is an onus on all Governments to ensure that those strictures are preserved.

How does the Deputy envisage we will have such an influx of people?

I do not wish to be wholly negative about Deputy Shatter's Bill. The Bill is an important signpost on the way to the formulation of the Government's legislation in this area. Its main drawback is that it is more of a sketch for future legislation than for actual legislation.

It is more than a sketch.

It does not take into account, for example, our obligations under the Dublin Convention on Asylum. Neither does the Bill contain provisions to prevent fraudulent or bogus applications.

Total rubbish.

Overall it is a step in the right direction, and I welcome it as such, but ultimately it is not sufficiently robust legislation and, therefore, I cannot lend it my support. In the meantime I would urge the Minister to complete her review with a view to introducing the Government's legislation as soon as possible. The commitment in the Programme for Government is unambiguous in its intent. It states that our policy towards treatment of refugees, asylum seekers and emigrants will meet the highest standards——

It does not mention legislation.

Procedures will be introduced to guarantee rights of hearing, appeal, access to legal advice and access to the courts. That is the bottom line for this Government and I have no doubt that the Minister will act upon it effectively and positively.

Mr. Byrne

I thank Deputy Costello for sharing his time with me. This shows clearly that the partnership Government is working——

It shows an awful lot.

The Deputy wants to share the noose.

Mr. Byrne

It guarantees the people on the opposite benches a long and happy period in Opposition.

Like all Deputies who have contributed to this debate, I have every sympathy for people who make their way to our shores seeking relief from despotic regimes and governments whether in war-torn Yugoslavia or other countries where the citizens are oppressed and persecuted on the grounds of religious beliefs or economic status.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Deputy should help to allow them into this country.

Mr. Byrne

No one should be in any doubt about the issue we are debating here: we are talking about the most fundamental right of all, the right of a person to live in his or her country without the fear of repression or persecution. People who are subject to this type of behaviour in their countries have no option but to flee to another country.

Of all countries in Europe, Ireland owes refugees a welcome and should give them an opportunity to start a new life in relative peace and prosperity. I need not remind the House that it is not so long ago since tens of thousands of Irish citizens were forced off their land and had to emigrate to the then alien shores of America and Canada. If only for this reason, we should have a particular affinity with those people who seek refuge in our country.

I am sure that like me other Deputies have received representations on this issue from people in many parts of the country. One can take it that the people outside this House strongly support refugees in their plight. However, I have to say that Deputy Shatter's Bill does little or nothing to advance the plight of refugees who seek asylum here. As has been said tonight, the Bill is seriously flawed. I understand the Bill would only succeed in making the procedures unnecessarily cumbersome and time-consuming and Deputies would agree that we should be aiming go down that road. We should be aiming to formulate an agreed set of procedures which would be clearly set out, transparent and allow for refugee cases to be dealt with as humanely and sympathetically as possible.

Intern them longer?

Please, Deputy, desist.

Mr. Byrne

The Deputy should keep cool.

I have been cool for long enough.

Mr. Byrne

In this regard I welcome the decision by the Minister for Justice to set up an appeals system which will operate under the chairmanship of a retired member of the Judiciary who will decide on cases referred for decision. I understand that this appeals tribunal will be operational in the near future. The sooner this tribunal is set up the better. I congratulate the Minister on her initiative in this regard.

I also welcome the decision of the Minister to review all the procedures which apply in the determination of refugee status. This review, which is long overdue, should be acknowledged by all Deputies. I understand that the main aim of this review will be to ensure that our long-standing tradition of social justice is upheld in dealing with asylum applications. The Minister has announced her intention to set up an inter-departmental committee with a wide brief to examine the policy and practices followed in asylum application cases. This important step in the right direction will ensure that from now asylum cases will be examined uder a much wider perspective, which can only be regarded as a good thing.

I acknowledge Deputy Shatter's motives in bringing this Bill before the House. However, I consider it basically flawed. I fully support the positive measures being taken by the Government and the Minister.

I wish to share my time with Deputies De Rossa and Sargent.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I understand that 15 minutes of the half hour is for Fine Gael speakers.

I shall leave it to the Deputies concerned to share their time as they see fit.

Democratic Left supports Deputy Shatter's Bill. In the short period since the Bill was introduced last week we have seen an increasing public demand for support for it. Even at this late stage a case can be made for reconsideration by the Government of its very negative position on this Bill, as expressed by the Minister for Justice last week. This opposition has been very timidly justified this evening by speakers from the Government side. The reasons put forward for opposing the Bill are more excuses for not going into the lobby to support it tonight. For a while during Deputy Costello's speech I thought the conscience of the Labour Party was about to overwhelm him but, alas, it would appear that Deputy Costello, his party and political expediency has won out.

The Minister made an extraordinary speech last week in opposing this Bill. She claimed that the proposers and supporters of it were not properly informed of the reality concerning the treatment of refugees here. Having listened to her speech, I do not think there is anybody less informed of the realities facing refugees entering this country than the Minister. She made one of the most extraordinary misinformed speeches any Minister has made in this House for a long time. The Minister told us that all applications — she repeated the word "all"— were processed in accordance with the procedures agreed with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. She declared that there was no question of applicants being bundled out of the State at airports.

Is the Minister aware of the widely publicised case of 27 Turkish Kurds who arrived at Shannon Airport on 16 November last and were bundled back onto an Aeroflot plane by 50 gardaí drafted in from local areas? There was no question of those people being able to make any application. That is not the only case. Amnesty International have reported that in November 1990 four Sri Lankans who arrived here on a Friday were deported the following Tuesday and that two Sri Lankans who arrived on a Tuesday were deported the following Thursday. So much for adherence to the procedures.

The Minister went on to state:

No person has ever been detained simply as a result of making an application for political asylum.

While I acknowledge the kind of official doublespeak contained in that statement, the Minister must know of the case referred to by Deputy Costello of a Chinese student who arrived here in the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square demonstrations, and the demonstrations for democracy in China, being detained in Mountjoy Prison for seven months. She must also know of the case of the Liberian refugee, Ben Marti Doe, whose name has become a byword for the mistreatment of refugees here, who was detained for a long time in prison.

It is extraordinary that the Minister can be allowed by her advisers, put on the record such a misleading picture of the position regarding the treatment of refugees. Is it any wonder refugees are treated in such an appalling way? It must also be said — and the Minister in her contribution last week acknowledged this —that the question of the treatment of refugees is something inherent in our whole attitude to the question of immigration. A number of speakers this evening referred to that fact. For example, Deputy Costello referred to the case of doctors from overseas who come here and encounter difficulty in having their families brought in with them. For a country that does not have what is known as an immigration problem, this country has pursued a disgraceful policy in the context of the European Community. In many respects we have been doing the dirty work of some of the larger member states of the EC faced with immigration problems. For example, at a meeting of immigration Ministers in London in November last the Irish Government effectively vetoed an agreement on allowing family members of immigrant workers into the various countries of the European Community on the grounds that there was a question of their possible entitlement to work. When some weeks ago I raised this matter in the House by way of parliamentary question, I was treated to the kind of double speak to which we have become accustomed here. I was told that it had not been vetoed but that concern had been expressed. However, the net result was the same. The agreement was blocked because this country at that meeting pursued a position hostile to allowing the families of immigrant workers to enter the country. In my opinion this was effectively doing the dirty work of larger member states of the EC who may have a bigger problem than we do in this respect.

If I may be permitted I want to share my time with Deputy Sargent.

It will be a disgrace if this Bill is voted down in the House this evening since everybody who has spoken in the debate so far has said that this is a problem we must address. The Minister has admitted that it is a problem we must address. Every Fianna Fáil and Labour Party Member who has spoken here has said it is a problem we must address. We are being given an opportunity to address it by means of Deputy Shatter's Bill. The fact that it is an Opposition Bill should not be advanced as an excuse for not dealing with this problem. There is no reason whatever for a vote this evening. None of us needs to go through the lobbies if the Government parties, the Fine Gael Party and ourselves simply agree that the Bill be approved here this evening—warts and all, because nobody is claiming it is a perfect Bill — and passed to one of the new legislative committees we established within the past two weeks. Let the committee deal with the abscesses, warts and difficulties the various spokespersons have identified. Of course, there will be problems encountered with the Bill. The Government introduce Bills in this House and we spend days and weeks endeavouring to tease them out and improve them. Indeed, on occasion the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, sitting across the House from me this evening, has accepted amendments from this side of the House. There is no reason a Bill must be perfect when introduced in this House. Let us please apply a bit of commonsense to this Bill and not have a vote on it at all this evening. Rather let it be submitted to one of our legislative committees and deal with it in a mature manner to counter a problem that every speaker has agreed needs to be dealt with urgently.

A number of points the Minister made in her contribution need to be addressed. For example, she attempted to give the impression that everything was fine, that no person entering this country encounters any problem with the procedures applied to them on reaching our shores or landing on our airstrips. That is not true. Deputy Gilmore has already indicated a number of instances where it has not been true. I do not have sufficient time to give others, but there are plenty of examples of human beings being treated virtually like cattle when they arrive in this country.

For the Minister to claim that the United Nations High Commission for Refugees is the virtual decision-maker in these cases is to mislead this House and the public. The UNHCR is not a statutory body and does not have an office in this country. If it is advising the Department on any particular issue it is doing so at arm's length, presumably over the telephone, on the basis of information provided by the Department of Justice. Therefore, it is not accurate to claim that the United Nations High Commission for Refugees is actually taking the decision because it is not on the ground and has never had an opportunity to speak to the actual people claiming asylum. That is one point that needs to be nailed here this evening.

The second point is that, as I understand it, there is a system of so called "safe" countries agreed between members of the EC. If people from those countries apply for asylum they are refused automatically, because their countries of origin are regarded as "safe". Nobody knows the criteria on which a decision was taken that such countries are safe. Our Government has never published the relevant criteria. It would appear to me that that constitutes a failure to be transparent, as the Minister claimed she wanted to be.

In addition, the criteria to which the Minister referred, the 1985 agreed criteria, have never been published. As I understand the position, when applicants in court attempt to base their case on that criteria they are informed that these criteria are not legally binding and, therefore, that their case cannot stand. Neither have we ever been told what instructions are issued to departmental officials when dealing with cases of this kind or how they should approach them. There is so much hidden in relation to how we deal with asylum seekers that it is absolutely essential that this Bill should be approved on Second Reading here this evening— not be killed off—so that committees of this House can examine its provisions and put in place a legally binding procedure, urgently needed to ensure that people coming to this country are treated as decent human beings, with appropriate dignity and respect.

A final point I want to make before handing over to Deputy Sargent is that we must not ignore the fact that there is a major crisis of racism obtaining with the European Community. This is a growing problem and the question of the EC developing a siege mentality is part and parcel of the present Government's reluctance to be open about how we deal with immigrants and asylum seekers. It is a mistake to bury our heads in the sand on this issue because it is one which will not go away but which will worsen if we ignore it. The experience in other parts of Europe has been that if one does not take active steps to create not only the legal framework to ensure that people are not discriminated against but also to provide the social framework and attitude, we shall be breeding problems for ourselves in the future.

A number of years ago I was a member of a committee in the European Parliament on racism and xenophobia who made recommendations to all of the member states of the European Community on how that issue should be dealt with. On the basis of questions I have tabled in this House, I understand that not a single recommendation of that committee has been implemented by this Government. In fact, we are the only country that has not yet ratified the convention to ban all forms of discrimination based on race. There is a whole range of issues needing to be addressed there. Let us begin to address them this evening by giving this Bill a Second Reading, allowing Members of this House to examine it, tease it out, approve it, and to put on our Statute Books legal rights for the people who come seeking hospitality and the right to live here.

Tá an Comhaontas Glas ag tacú leis an mBille seo atá á thabhairt isteach ag an Teachta Shatter agus atá i bhfad níos fearr ná aon Bhille a tháinig ón Rialtas go dtí seo i leith dídeanaithe. Caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil drochchlú ar an tír seo maidir le dídeanaithe.

Go luath sna 1980í agus mé im' scoláire ollscoile ag cabhrú le dídeanaithe a tháinig go dtí an tír seo ó Chile i Meiriceá Theas chonaic mé go raibh sé de nós ag Brainse Speisialta an Gharda Síochána glaoch isteach orthu arís agus arís eile de bharr gur shóisialaithe iad. Ní raibh aon chúis eile leis an gcur isteach sin a tharraing drochchlú ar an tír. Ní cóir glacadh leis an drochainm sin agus is Bille tábhachtach é seo chun an cheist sin a chur ina ceart agus dearbhú go bhfuil fáilte roimh dhí-deanaithe sa tír seo.

Iarraim tacaíocht Phairtí an Lucht Oibre, a ghlac le rún ag a gComhdháil Náisiúnta ag tacú le moladh ó Amnesty International i dtaobh na ceiste seo. Fuair me, agus b'fhéidir go bhfuair Teachtaí eile freisin, an-chuid cuairteanna agus glaochanna ó bhaill d'Amnesty International ag iarraidh orm tacú leis an mBille seo. Tá na sluaite daoine anseo ón eagras sin ag súil leis an dtacaíocht sin. Impím ar Theachtaí an Rialtais agus an Fhreasúra tacú leis an mBille. Tá na mílte dídeanaithe ag fulaingt ar fud an domhain agus chuideodh an Bille seo lena gcás a fheabhsú. Is féidir leasuithe a chur leis an mBille nuair a théann sé chuig na coistí. Impím ar an Teach ligean don Bhille seo dul tríd.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I congratulate my colleague, Deputy Shatter, on introducing this Bill and for making an effort to drag us into the 21st century. I also wish to compliment Deputy Carey —who has left the House — who, for many years, played a leading role in fighting the cause of refugees refused entry at Shannon Airport.

It is amazing that, on the one hand, people expressed pious platitudes and, on the other, informed us that they would not support the Bill. Opposition Members who say they support the spirit of the Bill but that it has its flaws, are hypocritical in saying it cannot be amended on Committee Stage. All Bills introduced in this House are amended on Committee Stage. If there are flaws in the Bill, they can be easily corrected on Committee Stage.

It used to be said, in the words of Saint Augustine, "Lord, make me pure but not just yet". Now it is a question of "Lord, give me a refugee Bill but not just yet". Why can the Bill not be accepted now and allowed to proceed to Committee Stage?

It is appalling that people can talk about the needs of refugees and at the same time vote against the Bill. Why should the Government introduce a Bill when the Opposition is prepared to do the work for it? Indeed, why did the Government not introduce its own Bill years ago? The Minister seems to think that in introducing this Bill Deputy Shatter is stepping on her corns.

The Minister said Deputy Shatter would have us believe that there is a monopoly on compassion and understanding for the plight of refugees on his side of the House. Did anyone ever hear such nonsense? Deputy Shatter never suggested he had a monopoly on compassion and understanding but he has demonstrated by his actions that he has compassion and understanding for their plight. In that statement the Minister showed that she was not prepared to seriously consider this Bill.

I am sure that this nation deserves the title "Ireland of the Welcomes" when wealthy visitors come to our shores but I am also sure that many of the refugees who have been given short shrift would not regard it in that way. It is a pity we are in this position given that, as a nation, we have exported more of our people than any other country. In John Mitchell's time people were transported, against their will, to Tasmania from where they escaped to Australia and rose to fame in the political world. Even though they were refugees, they were accepted.

Our emigrants, some of whom entered through Canada, have flooded the United States. Our emigrants are working illegally all over the world and we are rightly prepared to defend them, if they get into trouble because we believe they should be treated fairly. Yet, for some strange reason, we are under the impression that those who come here should not get the same reception. I am sure after we qualify for the World Cup finals and people are refused visas to visit the United States there will be protests about the way our citizens were treated but this is only a minor detail.

I have dealt with only one case in which a person was not allowed in. One day while playing golf in the captain's prize, I received an urgent telephone call. It transpired that a girl from the Philippines had been stopped at London Airport while on her way to Ireland to visit her relations. When I raised the question as to why London was taking a stand in regard to people who wanted to travel to Ireland I was told that Ireland and England work hand in hand. Ireland protects England in case people try to enter England through the back door and vice versa. It is appalling that England influences the way in which we treat visitors or refugees.

Deputy Shatter said that a young Chinese man spent seven months in jail. The Minister in her speech tried to give the impression that nothing like that ever happens here.

Chuir sé díomá orm nuair a chuala mé an Teachta Ó Cuív ag rá go bhfuil gach rud ceart in Éirinn. Molaim an Teachta McDowell a thug fogha fiachmhar faoi agus a thaispeáin gur ráiméis a bhí á labhairt aige. B'amhlaidh i gcás Teachtaí eile freisin.

Deputy Shatter went on to say in his speech:

Last November there were extraordinary scenes in Shannon Airport when a large number of Kurdish refugees were physically forced back on a plane flying to Canada. Access to them by individuals concerned about their plight and who wished to ensure that they had access to legal help was denied by officials in Shannon and they were forced out of the country before their position could be independently clarified.

I suppose the Minister is safe in saying that those people were not refused entry —they were just taken by the scruff of the neck and shoved back on a plane. Listening to some of the comments one would think that Deputy Shatter wanted to open the floodgates and allow every criminal and lunatic who wants to come here to enter. He is merely suggesting that people should be given a fair crack of the whip, have a right of appeal and access to a translator. It must be quite an ordeal for a stranger who cannot speak English to find himself in jail for seven months or longer; it is something he will always remember. Deputy Shatter is asking us to be human and to show concern for those worse off than ourselves.

With the exception of the Minister of State—I do not think any Minister would be as quick to accept a Bill introduced by the Opposition—I am not surprised that Fianna Fáil opposes this Bill but I cannot accept the fact that the Labour Party oppose it. One of its members, now a Minister, used to go to South America at the drop of a hat to protect its people, for which he is to be admired, but the party is hypocritical in suggesting that a Bill will be introduced. It should vote for the Bill before the House.

Deputy Costello, who spoke a few minutes ago, earned fame for defending the rights of prisoners. Who could be more important than a prisoner thrown into jail for seven months with no right of appeal? How can Deputy Costello vote against this Bill when he has earned such a good name for the work he has done?

A State car is more important.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): He did not get one, but perhaps he will.

(Interruptions.)

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Taking the line that a Bill from an Opposition party cannot be right is the greatest load of codswallop. The fact that Deputy Shatter has succeeded in having two of his Bills accepted does not mean he should not be allowed to bring in a third. The fact that he is right adds to his argument. Indeed, the Irish Refugee Council contradicts what the Minister said about people being deported against the ruling of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. In one case a Kurdish asylum seeker who left Ireland before his deportation order could be carried out has been recognised in the United Kingdom as a refugee under the United Nations Convention. What has pagan England got that Christian Ireland has not got? In another documented case the applicants were refused refugee status and permission to remain in this country when the United Nations High Commission for Refugees had stated that they came within its mandate and should not be returned to their country of origin. A deportation order was issued and two attempts were made to deport the family. Legal action had to be taken to obtain an injunction and the decision on granting asylum is currently under reconsideration in the Department of Justice.

It is clearly evident that the claim that everybody is treated fairly is rubbish. The Irish Refugee Council state further that on Wednesday, 17 February 1993 the Minister for Justice stated in the Dáil that the letter from the Department of Justice to the UNHCR of 1985 is a "formal procedural agreement with UNHCR" which "has been found by the courts to be legally binding." The first High Court decision which strengthens the legal status of the 1985 agreement was that of Mr. Justice O'Hanlon on 6 March 1992Fakih and others v. the Minister for Justice. The Department of Justice has lodged a notice of appeal to the Supreme Court in that case, contesting the rights of three Lebanese men who want to seek asylum in Ireland, and who have been in this country since late December 1991, to pursue their applications in accordance with that formal procedural agreement. Quite clearly we are going out of our way to oppose decisions made by the courts. I will quote one further example. In February 1993 Mr. Justice Flood in the High Court found that the detention of a person was “unfair, unreasonable and unjust.”

Deputy Browne has two minutes remaining.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Let me repeat that this Bill drags us into the 21st century and shows that we have some humanity left, that we are not concerned only with what is happening far away from us where we are prepared to go to defend the downtrodden. It gives us the opportunity to show that we think refugees who had a tough life in their own country should be allowed to remain here, if they are innocent enough to want to do so. Those of us who believe that the refugees have got a raw deal have no choice but to vote for this Bill. There is no point in talking about legislation at sometime in the future. The Government has had years to bring in a Bill but it did not do so. Deputy Shatter's Bill deserves the support of members who believe in freedom and human rights.

Deputy Browne said that previous Governments had the opportunity to introduce this legislation but did not do anything about it. Let me remind the Deputy that things have changed——

——shortchanged.

——and the Labour Party is part of the partnership Government.

A change for the worse.

It took the shilling.

Deputy Ferris, without interruption, please.

Especially from Members who can do nothing at all about this legislation. Perhaps they might listen to those of us who might be able to do something about it.

If the Deputy can do something about it, let him do it.

There is a commitment in the Programme for Government to address this problem. The Chairman of the Labour Party went to some lengths to state our party's commitment in this regard. We want to ensure that we have a proper Bill, even if it takes three or six months to put it in place. It is better to have such a Bill than to have a defective Bill, some of which cannot be amended in committee.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Why not?

Fine Gael may believe that it is only they who are confronted with this problem but Members are confronted with it on a daily basis. Only yesterday I had to deal with two such people in difficulties; in one case the person has been here for over seven years but is still technically an illegal. Indeed, some are here since a member of the Fine Gael Party was in the Department of Justice.

We can amend the Bill in committee.

Let us be honest, we want to address this problem in the proper way. Three different Government Departments are involved—the Department of Justice, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Department of Enterprise and Employment. The Labour Party has a major input in two of those Departments. We are as committed to this legislation as any other Members, and that includes our partners in Government and my colleagues on the left. We have raised this issue continuously. Now, when for the first time we have the opportunity to do something about it——

The Deputy and his party will vote against it.

——in a partnership Government, we should try to seek a compromise. Deputy Shatter has achieved a number of successes in introducing Bills in Private Members' time. He has had my support in the past. Indeed, we served on committees together in which we improved the legislation. This however, is a time for compromise. If people want to play politics with these unfortunate refugees, let them be honest about it. At least we are saying that we will do something constructive and that we will bring all the strands of the problem together.

I was involved in a case two years ago where a consultant surgeon whose visa was out of date was deported, although he had a work permit. I intervened to ensure that his visa could be renewed by the Irish Embassy in London and it was agreed he could travel to London and return with his visa. However, the British authorities refused to allow this consultant surgeon to land in London and he was deported to New Delhi. The Progressive Democrats were in Government at that time.

When the Progressive Democrats were in Government we accepted a Private Members' Bill from Deputy Shatter.

The Progressive Democrats did nothing for the refugees, a group to which they are now very committed. We are committed to this. I am putting Deputy Shatter to the test——

Tell us what is wrong with the Bill?

I am putting Deputy Shatter to the test: is he prepared to compromise? There is a procedure available to the House whereby we would not have to have a vote in which the Bill would be defeated.

What is wrong with the Bill?

I can list three or four things that are wrong. First, this Bill was initiated in the Four Courts where the heads of a Bill with suggested amendments came to the attention of Mr. Shatter. He then decided to publish a Bill simply because in the Programme for Government we made a commitment to introduce legislation on the matter. If Mr. Shatter suggests that we report progress then we do not have to vote against this Bill.

On a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not wish to interrupt Deputy Ferris, particularly when he is intent on making an arrant fool of himself, but perhaps he might acknowledge the fact that I am a Deputy and refer to me as such.

Thank you, Deputy Shatter.

Not all of us are privilged to be members of the profession that works in the Four Courts, one of the highest paid professions in the country. Rural Deputies also receive complaints and have to deal with problems to the best of their ability. We have to ensure that this country abides by the conventions on the treatment of people; they must be dealt with in a humanitarian way. I do not want to see people in my constituency being deported by this or any Government, as has happened in the past. Does Deputy Shatter want this Bill defeated? He is not the only person with an interest in this issue. Will he withdraw it and put pressure on the Government to introduce a measure to deal with this matter as we are doing through our party members in Cabinet? We will ensure that good legislation is introduced to address these problems and others which were not mentioned.

What are they?

We will deal with them in legislation with the support of the Government. If Second Stage is passed it could be six months before the Bill goes to the appropriate committee.

Deputies

No.

It could take that long. The Whips have agreed that these committees will discuss Estimates and Committee Stages of Bills. Therefore, this Bill could be buried and never see the light of day.

By whom?

It would only be buried by a Government in which the Labour Party is a partner.

If Deputy Shatter has a suggestion we are prepared to listen to him——

The Deputy should listen to the chairman of his party.

I listened to Deputy Cox for long enough and he does not always make sense. Our chairman suggested today that we reach a compromise on this issue, but the Deputy is now looking for a vote. If that is what he wants we will agree to it. However, if he wants legislation to cater for all people, whether those in the Public Gallery, in my constituency or in any constituency, we will vote down this Bill and introduce a measure that will properly deal with the issue as was promised in the Programme for Government. We will not be ashamed of that. When Deputies opposite had an opportunity to be in Government they did not take it, they wanted to dictate who would be in Government with them.

Where is the Deputy's ministerial car?

The Deputy is only upsetting himself.

One day Fine Gael favours the Culliton report and the next day it does not; it favours only certain parts of it.

(Interruptions.)

This Minister and his Department are responsible——

The Minister is laughing.

He is laughing at the Deputy. Is Deputy Shatter, who will have a golden opportunity when replying to this debate, prepared to report progress on this Bill or does he want a vote on it? Irrespective of his decision we will ensure that the Government brings in legislation on this issue. That is a better commitment than the Progressive Democrats gave. From time to time when the Progressive Democrats sat on this side of the House its members would have liked to vote with the Opposition but could not do so.

On a point of order, will Deputy Ferris explain how we can report progress on a compromise.

We have said we will introduce a proper Bill. We will move to report progress on this Bill, if that is what Fine Gael wants. I have discussed this matter with the Fine Gael Whip. The Deputy may not have had time to talk to him or it may be that he does not wish to listen to him; certainly he does not want to listen to what I have to say. I am just an ordinary rural Deputy who witnesses the deportation of ordinary people.

I regret the last contribution, it was a very sad one. It is extraordinary that a Deputy, even a Labour Deputy would come into the House and behave in such a way. I know what Deputy Ferris is trying to do and I will come to that later.

This is a serious Bill with a serious intent. It is not a party political measure and it is not politically or ideologically contentious. It was designed to address a problem we all acknowledge exists and to ensure that people who seek political asylum here are treated with dignity, humanity and decency. It was devised to ensure that people who land at our airports and other points of entry are not simply bundled back out of the State and transported to oppressive regimes from which they have come, thus placing their lives at risk.

I deplore the fact that some Members have tried to cast aspersions on this Bill, suggesting we are engaging in political play-acting. This is a legislative assembly and this measure is a serious one. As Deputy Ferris acknowledged, when the Labour Party was in Opposition it saw fit to support two Private Members' Bills from this side of the House. In fairness to the Progressive Democrats when that party was in Government it supported a Private Members' Bill to recognise foreign adoptions and in fairness to Fianna Fáil when it was in a minority Government and in Government with the Progressive Democrats it allowed two Private Members' Bills to go through the House.

The change of atmosphere in this House is the consequence of Labour and Fianna Fáil in Government together, with a majority of 38. This Government is intent on rolling over any legislative proposal put forward by the Opposition and on turning this House into an irrelevant debating Chamber instead of a legislative assembly. The nonsense we have heard from Deputy Ferris is indicative of what we will, unfortunately, have to suffer in this House for the next number of years.

This Bill was intended to provide, by law, very basic protections for those seeking asylum. It was intended to give statutory force to our international obligations under the 1951 United Nations convention on the protection of refugees and also to fill loopholes in the current procedures.

I listened to the Minister for Justice and read her speech very carefully. She said that all applications are currently processed in accordance with the agreement reached with the United Nations High Commission for Refugees and that that has been always the case. Other Deputies referred to that matter also, but that is simply not true. Many people who land on our shores are bundled back on planes. Last Tuesday evening I gave the Minister examples of such incidents, and not one Government Minister or Deputy denied that any of them took place. Indeed, Labour Deputies, who spoke somewhat more eloquently and with a great deal more knowledge than did Deputy Ferris, acknowledged that these incidents took place.

The existing agreed procedures are simply not good enough. Many of them have not been implemented there are loopholes that need to be addressed. For example, there is no procedure to guarantee that non-Government organisations such as Amnesty International and the Irish Refugee Council can become involved in determining whether a person should be given political refugee status. There is no obligation on the officials in the Department of Justice, or on the Minister, to take notice of information from either of these organisations or from any organisation, and there is no statutory appeals system.

Last week the Minister spoke in the House of the need for transparency — apparently acknowledging that we have some problems — and also of the need for public satisfaction with the way we operate our procedures. On the same day, in a Dáil question I tabled I asked how many, if any, of the approximately 170 people from Bosnia we have accepted temporarily here, have applied for refugee status and whether, if they formally apply for political asylum, it would be granted. I was told that matter was a secret. Apparently, if I was told how many of the people who have come here from Bosnia seeking permanent refugee status by way of political asylum, it would endanger national security. The same Minister came into the Dáil three hours later and acknowledged the need for transparency.

Last week, commenting on this matter, the Minister wondered aloud as to whether a retired judge might be appointed to ensure existing procedures are fair — she mused that this is perhaps something we might do. Things moved forward apace last night when the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, whom I suspect is deeply embarrassed by the Government's stance on this Bill, announced that the Minister for Justice now acknowledges the need for an appeals mechanism. He stated that it is the Minister's intention to appoint immediately a retired judge to hear appeals. However, he was not able to tell the House how such appeals would be dealt with, what rights the appellants would have, whether they would be legally represented, whether they would be given all the information available to the Department of Justice in the original decision-making process and would be allowed rebut it in an appeal and whether it would be a secret or a public procedure. This is something that was made up only last night and neither the Department nor the Minister can clarify what was said. Of course we need a statutory appeals system with clear civil and legal rights attached to the person seeking to establish his right to political asylum. Such a statutory appeals system is provided for in the context of the Bill.

We have also been told that an inter-departmental committee will examine the whole area. None of us in this House was born yesterday. It is not too long since the Minister, Deputy Quinn, and others in the Labour Party were on this side of the House. We all know that if the Government wants to postpone addressing anything but wants to give an impression of concern, it sets up a committee. A committee has been set up to consider the position of travelling families, a second to consider the position of the disabled and a third to consider the position of non-nationals seeking political status. This is a Government governing by committee. Every scintilla of policy allegedly contained in its programme is so vague that it has to set up committees to spend a few years trying to work out the nature of the commitment and how to implement it.

Much play has been made of the Programme for Government which states:

Our policy towards treatment of refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants will meet the highest international standards. Procedures will be introduced to guarantee rights of hearings, appeal, access to legal advice and access to the courts.

If the Government wants to provide all that, this Bill addresses every single one of those issues. If it is concerned that any aspect of the Bill needs to be amended, Members of the House know, although people watching this debate may not realise it, that all Bills go through Committee and Report Stages where they are amended. I made it very clear in my speech on this Bill — and it has been made clear on subsequent occasions— that I will be more than happy if the House does not divide tonight but accepts this Bill, completes Second Stage and goes into committee where we can take on board constructive amendments proposed by Government Members from Fianna Fáil or the Labour Party. I do not mind taking on board amendments from any quarter if this Bill is allowed to provide the necessary protection. That is what happens to all legislation coming through this House. If it is recognised that there is need for reform there is no need to postpone it until a further committee examines the issue and tells us what is needed, we know what is needed.

The numbers of emigrants from this country have been mentioned. The manner in which we treat people who look for political asylum has been well described in this House. Yesterday evening, in a very eloquent speech, Deputy Harney referred to the position of Marey al Gutrani who was not granted asylum and who spent some 17 months in one of our prisons. Following an application to the High Court, Mr. Justice Flood ordered his release from prison describing his detention as unfair, unreasonable and unjust. What Deputy Harney and I did not know when she delivered that speech — I wonder whether the Minister knows — was that last summer when this poor, unfortunate man was still in prison an attempt was made to have him transported to Libya. He was removed from one of our prisons, his hands taped behind his back and his legs taped. He was put in a car driven by a State driver to be taken to Baldonnel airport and flown out of this country.

A Deputy

He would not be the first.

If the dictatorship in the former Soviet Union behaved in that way we would have been outraged. Does the Minister know about the event and that the man's removal was stopped because journalists were alerted to what was happening? If we learnt that the American authorities were treating Irish illegals the way we treat people who are seeking political asylum here, there would be riots outside the American Embassy. The way we treat them is a disgrace. This Bill gives us the opportunity to address the issue.

Deputy Kemmy said last night that he had knowledge of what happened in Shannon with refugee applications, he talked about the urgent need for fair and just procedures and said that there was no need for this House to divide. I agree with Deputy Kemmy. The House is dividing only because the Government is unwilling to allow this Bill through simply because it is coming from the Opposition side of the House. The cynicism of the Labour Party on this issue is nauseating. The Labour Party is betraying the commitments it made over the years to human and civil rights, promises to Amnesty International and to the Irish Refugee Council. It is also betraying the party and its supporters.

It is very enlightening to look at what the Labour Party said in the past about these issues. Not long ago — 11 December 1992 — Deputy Quinn as Deputy Leader of the Labour Party corresponded with a member of Amnesty International. Of course, the new Government had not been formed then. Deputy Quinn thanked the member of Amnesty International for his letter and good wishes and stated:

I am very aware of the problem people seeking asylum have in trying to negotiate their position on our country. Over the years I have received many representations from individuals, who are still in our prisons, waiting for a decision to be taken on their applications.

I enclose, for your information, copies of questions which I and other Deputies, have put down to the Minister for Justice on this matter. If the Labour Party are part of a new Government this is one of the issues I will be spending some time working on.

During the time in which the Minister will be working on it tonight, he will be working against providing protection.

(Interruptions.)

That is what the Minister will be doing tonight,

That is in the programme and it will be implemented.

What was said by Deputy Spring to the same correspondent? He said:

I am very conscious of the difficulties presented for those seeking asylum in this country and assure you it will receive our attention in the 27th Dáil.

With renewed thanks and best wishes.

That is right. The Deputy does not have the patience to wait.

The programme will be implemented.

(Interruptions).

The Minister, Deputy Spring, is becoming something of a political refugee himself judging by the number of occasions he appears in this House.

That is an unfair comment.

We are lectured on a regular basis by the Labour Party——

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Shatter, without interruption.

—— about ethics in Government. This is an example of ethics in Government. This is the party of change. This is the party that wants to turn this House into a legislative assembly so that TDs work as legislators. This is an example. When TDs on the Opposition side of the House try to engage in positive legislative politics, bringing forward reforming measures that apparently are acceptable to the Labour Party, the Labour Party vote against them because they come from the Opposition. That is an example of ethics in Government.

The Labour Party also believe strongly in freedom of information. Does it believe that information regarding the number of people from Bosnia who sought political asylum — and whether the Government will grant it — should be a national secret. Is that an example of freedom of information in action? The tragedy is that this Bill has widespread support outside the House. If the Labour Party was on this side of the House it would support this Bill. It is being opposed simply because it was produced by an Opposition Deputy.

We have now reached the stage in this House where it is not a question of change, we are now truly back to the future. In the early days of this Government we have reached the position where it is an exercise in futility for any Member on this side of the House to bring forward positive legislative proposals to effect reform and change, regardless of whether they are politically contentious, because this Government intends to use its majority of 38 to vote against any Bill introduced on this side of the House. That is not the way we should be have as parliamentarians. We are undermining this House as a legislative assembly, the cosmetic exercise of forming committees to make it look as if we have a reformed Dáil while not allowing Members of this House to act as legislators is something to which the general public will rapidly cotton on.

The Labour Party will say after this debate that it looked for a compromise but did not get it. A compromise is not on offer because the compromise the Labour Party wants is for Fine Gael to drop this Bill.

I thank all the Members of the Opposition parties on this side of the House who supported the Bill, namely, Democratic Left, the Progressive Democrats and the Green Party. They with my colleagues in the Fine Gael Party very eloquently set out the reasons for the Bill. Let us have a compromise.

Perhaps Deputy Shatter would conclude.

Let us not vote tonight but allow the Bill go through Second Stage unopposed, as happened in the case of the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act, 1989, and the Adoption Act, 1991, and put it into a Dáil Special Committee, which is the mechanism that is always available. Let the Government bring forward any constructive amendments they want to put to it——

The Deputy does not compromise.

——because to date, Sir, we have heard no details of a single amendment the Government believe is needed.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 70.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cox, Pat.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan; Níl, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris.
Question declared lost.
Top
Share