Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 May 1993

Vol. 430 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 4. It is further proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that:

1. In the case of the resumed Second Stage of No. 4, the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate: (i) The opening speech of the main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed one hour in each case; (ii) The speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes; and (iii) the Minister for Finance shall be called upon to make a speech in reply not exceeding 30 minutes.

2. Private Members' Business shall be No. 8 and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. today.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with No. 4, the resumed debate on the Finance Bill, agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Private Members' Business, which shall conclude at 8.30 p.m., agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

In view of the concerns of those operating helplines for people in distress, the outrage of most householders and the fact that complaints about existing telephone bills already make up half of the work of the Ombudsman, will the Taoiseach agree that the radical increase in household telephone charges by the Telecom monopoly is far beyond anything the Minister should be entitled to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, this matter does not arise now.

Mr. J. Bruton

It does arise.

An Ceann Comhairle

Members of this House will have ample opportunity to debate this matter. I understand the charges will not come in for a number of months. It is not in order now.

Mr. J. Bruton

All I wanted to do——

Mrs. Doyle

They do not care.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to ask the Taoiseach, if it is in order, if he will allow a debate here in the House on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should put down a question on that matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

Surely, the House is simply making itself ridiculous if it cannot debate this matter?

A Deputy

Where is the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Members wish to debate this matter they have ample ways and means of doing so.

Mr. J. Bruton

How, Sir?

An Ceann Comhairle

By way of question or substantive motion and, indeed, it could conceivably be adverted to in the debate on the Finance Bill.

Mr. J. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, I will hear no more of this. It is clearly not in order now.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have conveyed through the Whips a private request to the Government for time for a debate——

An Ceann Comhairle

Then let the Whips decide on that.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Government prepared to provide time for a debate on this subject?

An Ceann Comhairle

Put down a question on the matter.

The Taoiseach

You can debate it all day in the Finance Bill if you wish.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Government is hiding behind the Ceann Comhairle on this matter.

The Taoiseach

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Bruton, you must immediately withdraw that remark.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why is the Government——

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

This is the second budget of 1993.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair does not lean towards any side of this House, left, right or centre. I resent that remark and the Deputy must withdraw it.

Deputies

Withdraw it.

Mr. J. Bruton

Sir, if I said the Government was hiding behind you I did not reflect on your integrity but on its integrity.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have no argument about this. Deputy Bruton will now resume his seat.

Mr. O'Malley

Will the Taoiseach state if the Government is prepared to come to some arrangement in regard to item No. 8 on today's Order Paper, the Refugee Protection Bill, 1993, which will be voted on tonight? If that Bill is defeated it will indicate that there is little concern for the welfare of refuguees——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is anticipating the resumed Second Stage debate on that matter which will commence at 7 p.m. this evening. Members may express their views at that time. It does not arise now. I am calling Deputy De Rossa.

Mr. O'Malley

Could some discussions take place today, Sir, with a view to trying to see that that Bill is agreed?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise now, Deputy O'Malley.

Mr. O'Malley

Can I take it from the Government's silence that it is prepared to vote against the Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

The debate on that matter will resume this evening.

Mr. O'Malley

Does the Labour Party go along with this?

Mr. Harte

There are one or two refugees on the Government benches.

(Interruptions.)

Proinsias De Rossa

Yesterday Deputy Gilmore attempted to raise on the Order of Business the fact that Minister Cowen was making a statement outside this House about the increase in Telecom Éireann charges——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on that matter and you may not circumvent my ruling.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am not circumventing anything, a Cheann Comhairle. I am simply trying to put it to you that you should at least allow a question to the Taoiseach asking him to allow a debate on this matter in this House. It is being debated outside this House; it should be debated in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

If questions are put in that regard in the normal way I will consider them.

Proinsias De Rossa

This is the normal way to do it. This is the Order of Business where we hope to extract from the Government an indication of its intentions.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled on the matter; I will hear no more about it.

Mr. J. Mitchell

In view of yesterday's announcement, has the Government any plans to amend the Posts and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983?

The Taoiseach

No legislation is promised, and the Government has no such plans.

Ms McManus

I would like to raise a matter of public health. In view of yesterday's court decision to award over £2 million for the victim of the pertussis vaccine, will the Minister for Health give a clear direction to parents and doctors about the importance of the whooping cough immunisation?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy McManus, you must raise that in the normal way. Many opportunities are open to you to do so. It does not arise now.

Ms. McManus

A Cheann Comhairle, what concerns me is the time lapse involved if the message is not clearly given.

An Ceann Comhairle

You may not continue when you are ruled out of order.

Mr. Connaughton

Will the Taoiseach accept that the Government and Telecom Éireann have committed the surgery of the century——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Connaughton

The Government should be ashamed of itself. It is deplorable it is getting away with it.

A Deputy

It is not getting away with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is showing disdain and disregard for the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach give the House a date when the legislation to implement the Government's anti-Cullition report will be published?

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation is the Deputy referring?

Mr. Rabbitte

The legislation to implement the proposals of the Culliton report.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy is nearly as good as Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): Why am I being dragged into this?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

If Deputy Quinn is not careful he will be sent down to the Mespil flats.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I trust Members will not make a mockery of the Order of Business. I am calling Deputy Bruton.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is quite a serious matter, a Cheann Comhairle. Will the Taoiseach indicate a date?

Mr. J. Bruton

The Government has promised legislation to deal with the activities of moneylenders and consumer credit generally. In view of the impact of telephone charges on many householders in terms of indebtedness, when will the legislation governing the activities of money lenders be introduced?

The Taoiseach

I answered this question last week and the week before. The legislation is in course of preparation.

Mr. Durkan

Are the Taoiseach and the Government not embarrassed at the abnormally slow progress on the Government's legislative programme, given the expectation and the list circulated at the beginning of last session?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should be more specific about the particular legislation.

Mr. Durkan

I am referring to the fact that the Government had to rush in a Bill from the other House a week ago in order to fit in a programme which was already overloaded.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not being specific.

Mr. Durkan

The Taoiseach should answer that question.