Skip to main content

Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 May 1993

Vol. 431 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 3A and 6. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) No.3 shall be decided without debate; (2) the proceedings on No. 3A if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the debate; (i) the opening speech of the Minister and of the main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrats Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed 10 minutes; and (iii) the Minister of state shall be called upon not later than 6.35 p.m. to make a speech in reply not exceeding 10 minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 13, motion 3.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that item No. 3 be decided without debate satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

I object to the taking of item No. 3, which is a tax imposing resolution. The rules of the Dáil make it clear that one cannot bring in an amendment to impose a charge on the people on Committee Stage unless a resolution approving the charge is approved in the Dáil itself before the Committee Stage begins. I believe item No.3 arises from amendments tabled only yesterday by the Minister for Finance, part of a telephone book load of amendments to the Finance Bill changing tax law without proper time for examination. Not only is this a Government of high taxation but it appears to be a Government that seeks to break the rules of this House in order to impose further charges.

On a point of Order, Sir, I refer you to Standing Order 122 (2) which states clearly:

The Committee Stage of a Bill which incidentally involves a charge upon the people shall not be taken unless a motion approving of the charge has been passed by the Dáil.

Thus, I submit, on a point of order, that this resolution and its associated amendment to the Finance Bill is out of order in that it is tabled too late for approval here after Committee Stage has begun. I would refer you in particular to Standing Order 125 concerning Financial Resolutions which makes it clear furthermore that a Financial Resolution must be taken before the Bills to which it refers are passed at Second Stage and may not be taken afterwards.

The Taoiseach

This Financial Resolution resulted from an amendment to section 39 of the Finance Bill, which is not scheduled to be dealt with until early tomorrow morning by the Finance and General Affairs Committee. This schedule, may I add, was drawn up by Deputy Bruton's own party and agreed to by the Government. This is the reason it is being moved today; it is not being taken until tomorrow morning and Deputy Bruton knows that well. I suggest to Deputy Bruton that it is a matter for the Chair to decide if this was done in accordance with Standing Order 122 (2) or not. It is not for him or for me to decide what is or is not in order in this House.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I refer the Taoiseach to Standing Order 122?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, I think this is a matter primarily for myself to decide.

Mr. Rabbitte

I had a similar point.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I deal with Deputy Bruton's point first? Do you wish to deal with the same point?

Mr. Rabbitte

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Very good, proceed.

Mr. Rabbitte

Essentially, I want to raise the point which Deputy Bruton has raised. My understanding of the Standing Order is that it is true, as the Taoiseach said, that section 39 has not yet been reached. My understanding is that the fact that Committee Stage has begun is sufficient to prevent this resolution being brought before the House.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is quite clear.

Mr. Rabbitte

There is a separate point I should like to raise while I am on my feet. My understanding was that we were also to have a resolution today on the Order of Business on a particular matter relating to section 84 loans.

Mr. J. Bruton

This relates to it.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not know why it has not been brought forward if it includes this or whether it is being brought forward separately.

Mr. J. Bruton

This is it and they do not want it debated.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is included in No. 3. There is a particular reason — I indicated this for my group — we would want to debate a motion relating to section 84 loans because it usually includes a charge on the Exchequer. I believe there is a very specific case which has given rise to this and I can understand that in a particular case there may be good reason for it. If we pass this resolution it has universal application in terms of section 84 based loans and that is the major and complicated question that ought not go through the House without debate.

Mr. J. Bruton

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I reply to Deputy Bruton and, indeed, to some of the remarks made by Deputy Rabbitte. It is a long established practice that a Financial Resolution may be taken during the course of Committee Stage of the Bill concerned, providing of course that the section or part of the Bill to which the resolution relates has not been entered into on the Committee Stage. Parliamentary procedure is not confined to Standing Orders alone but also involves long established practice. If one accepted a literal interpretation of the relevant Standing Order, namely 122 (2), as contended by Deputy Bruton, as being the only source of procedure then our procedures would be very inflexible indeed, if not unworkable, and would have the effect that an amendment to a Bill which would require a further Financial Resolution, could not be taken either on Committee or Report Stage. This would seriously disrupt the business of the House.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is not the point.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. The commencement of Committee Stage cannot be taken as a cut-off point for the taking of Financial Resolutions and there are many precedents for so doing. I may add that Standing Order 105 clearly envisages that an amendment involving a charge may be moved during Report Stage on re-committal long after Committee Stage has commenced. That is the position, Deputy, so far as the Chair is concerned. I would hope there will be no argument about it.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, Sir, I submit to you——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have answered your point of order, Deputy. My ruling——

Mr. J. Bruton

May I put a further point of order to you?

An Ceann Comhairle

If you are on the same point of order, Deputy, it is simply not in order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I do not wish to quarrel with you, Sir, but I wish to make the point, first, that it is not possible for precedent to negative the meaning of Standing Orders. The Standing Orders are absolutely clear and no amount of precedent can change the law if the law itself is originally clear, as provided in Standing Orders. I submit that your interpretation is faulty in that regard.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is challenging the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am suggesting that it is very important in the matter of imposing taxes on people that this House be careful. I would refer you to the provisions of the Constitution concerning Money Bills which make it very clear that a special procedure is required in regard to the imposition of any tax——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair would want to be most careful in these matters and intends to be so.

Mr. J. Bruton

Standing Order 122 (2) was not drafted for no purpose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have nothing further to add to my comments.

Mr. J. Bruton

I submit you are subject to the rules the same as any other Member of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is reflecting on the Chair.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am simply making a statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have made my statement. If the Deputy seriously challenges the ruling of the Chair he has a remedy. I would much prefer he would avail of that remedy rather than allow any slur or imputation to be attached to the Chair.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to make the point that we are all equal before the law, including you, Sir. I am casting no reflection on you. I am making a submission to you that in this instance your ruling is incorrect. None of us is always correct. I suggest that in this case you made a mistake.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have made my ruling and I have advised the Deputy how to proceed if he sincerely feels that way about the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I certainly would not wish to take that course because that would be a personal course which I do not believe would serve anybody's interests.

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be far better than casting reflections on the Chair.

Mr. J. Bruton

I was not casting reflections on you, Sir. I was merely pointing out that you are subject to the same rules as everyone else.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am aware of that.

Mr. J. Bruton

Equality before the law is the basis of this State.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter cannot go on. I am putting the question.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could I say, Sir, in light of your ruling, with which I respectfully disagree, that I have no option but to oppose the taking of this substantive matter without debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question then is——

The Taoiseach

It is wasting time, your own time.

Mr. Yates

This was at the request——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on the matter now, Deputy.

Mr. Yates

The Taoiseach made the point that this was with the Opposition's agreement——

The Taoiseach

I did not say that.

Mr. J. Bruton

He did.

Mr. Yates

I have the Opposition amendment. The Opposition proposed no such measure. I just wanted to correct that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

The Taoiseach

Just to clarify the record, if Deputy Ivan Yates came in on time for the debate he would know exactly what I said.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach is trying to imply that the Opposition are responsible for this.

The Taoiseach

May I have a little attention please, just a little? I will make it abundantly clear and I will read exactly what I said. This Financial Resolution resulted from an amendment to a Committee section of the Finance Bill and this is the reason it is being moved today. The Financial Resolution being moved today relates to an amendment to section 39 of the Finance Bill, which is not scheduled to be dealt with until early tomorrow morning by the Finance and General Affairs Committee. I would add that this Schedule was drawn up by Fine Gael — Deputy Yates is the spokesman and he should know — and agreed to by the Government.

Mr. Yates

I agreed to the Schedule, not to the amendment.

The Taoiseach

Could we have a little silence and not the shouting down which you engage in every day?

Mrs. Doyle

The Taoiseach's lack of clarity is giving the wrong impression.

The Taoiseach

Can we have a little attention, or do you believe in shouting everybody down?

Mrs. Doyle

The schedule was agreed by the Whips and not the amendment. There is a difference.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Doyle, please desist. Can we do the Taoiseach the courtesy of listening to him? Deputy Doyle please desist from further interruption.

The Taoiseach

I will read this for the third time, in case Deputy Avril Doyle was not listening. This Schedule was drawn up by Fine Gael and agreed to by the Government. Fine Gael, as were all other parties in this House, was sent——

Mr. Flanagan

A red herring.

The Taoiseach

——a detailed note as to why this amendment is required. This was done yesterday. It is another fanciful performance by Deputy Bruton in the absence of anything else to put before this House.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I reply to that statement by the Taoiseach where he made a personal reference to me?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, this debate has gone on far too long.

Mrs. Doyle

It is taxation by diktat; it is very serious.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

If Members and the Whips would have regard to the waste of time they would see that we are interfering very much in the business that has yet to be transacted today.

Mr. J. Bruton

The fact that the Government is so bad at drafting tax legislation that it has to introduce a further charge after the Schedule has been agreed for the taking of amendments is evidence of its incompetence in doing its business.

(Interruptions.)

Mrs. Doyle

Taxation by diktat.

Question put: "That No. 3 shall be decided without debate."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 39.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

The Taoiseach

For the benefit of the Chair and the House, may I state the alterations to accommodate and make up for the time lost as a result of the debate just completed? The opening speeches of the Minister and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrat Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 25 minutes in each case. The speech of each other Member called on shall not exceed ten minutes in each case and the Minister or Minister of State shall be called on not later than 6.55 p.m. to make a speech in reply not exceeding ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

In regard to the programme of legislation of the Government, the Tánaiste stated that during the life of this Government there would be no further disposal of State assets of any kind. Will the Taoiseach confirm that this is a Government decision and Government Policy?

An Ceann Comhairle

Does this appertain to legislation?

Mr. J. Bruton

It affects the legislative programme.

An Ceann Comhairle

The legislative programme is a very wide instrument of policy.

The Taoiseach

The Programme for Government states clearly the Government's position and this does not alter it one iota.

Top