Jim Higgins
Question:10 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for Justice the number of people currently in prison who were unemployed at the time of their arrest; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Prison Statistics.
Jim Higgins
Question:43 Mr. J. Higgins asked the Minister for Justice the number of people currently in prison who were unemployed at the time of their arrest; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 43 together. The information sought by the Deputy is not available.
That was very crisp. Surely it should be possible to establish that type of information from existing social welfare records? All of that data is contained on computer and it is only a case of looking for it.
The information which the Deputy seeks is not taken by the Garda at the time of arrest or interview and it is not kept by the prison system.
What information is sought from prisoners on admission to prisons?
The usual information is sought by the Garda but its procedures do not include establishing whether or not a person was employed at the time. It does not keep that kind of statistic on its books. I would be concerned that a change in this area might involve taking substantial numbers of gardaí off the streets to compile information which is not necessary. The Deputy is making a mistake in relation to the prison population. The vast majority of unemployed people are upstanding law abiding citizens. They would not like it to be implied that unemployed people are into crime.
The Minister is neatly trying to divert attention from the central point. Is the Minister not aware that when someone is arrested his name, address, date of birth and occupation is ascertained? If somebody is admitted to prison the same data is requested.
The Deputy asked me to state if I had in my possession or if the prison system had the numbers of people who are currently in prison who were unemployed at the time of their arrest. That information is not available.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Would it not almost interfere with the course of justice that the status of a person was unknown? The reason for commiting a crime should be a major factor. For instance, a person who was unemployed and commits a crime because he was hungry should be distinguished from somebody ripping off £500,000 by some slick deal. Is it not amazing that the prisons do not have figures with regard to the status of prisoners?
I am just giving the factual position. It has not been the practice in the prison system to keep that type of statistic on the record. I am not sure what extra time would be involved in doing that. I was not trying to divert attention from the issue. It is important to reiterate that it is wrong to imply that an unemployed person would be into crime. That is not the case. The vast majority of unemployed people are law abiding citizens.
I accept that.
Is it not the case that all of these people would probably have received criminal legal aid and in assessing their means for legal aid it would be known whether or not they were employed? Surely there is a lack of coordination between the different services which ensures that we do not have basic statistics. If we want to update our laws and policies it is difficult to operate without appropriate statistics.
I do not know offhand what percentage of unemployed people in the prisons were in receipt of criminal legal aid. I am not aware of what efforts should or could be made in the prison system to keep the kind of statistic Deputy Higgins is asking for here.
It is important to establish a proper data base. Do I take it from what the Minister says that we put people in prison and we do not know what they do, where they came from and whether or not they are employed and that there is a very poor sociological data base in relation to the composition of the prison population?
As Deputy Higgins is well aware, there is a comprehensive work training programme in the prison system. It provides for the employment and training of prisoners. The programme is run in the prison service in conjunction with a number of State agencies. The training takes place in the prison and outside of the prison system. A number of Deputies, particularly Deputy Harney in her constituency, will be aware of a number of socially desirable projects which went ahead because of the type of training that had been given to prisoners and the experience they were able to get on the job in various community projects.