Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jun 1993

Vol. 432 No. 6

Order of Business.

Minister for Finance (Mr. B. Ahern)

It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 14, 15 and 3. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that; 1. business shall be interrupted at 12.000 midnight; 2. the sitting shall be suspended at 8.30 p.m. for 15 minutes; 3. No. 1 shall be decided without debate; 4. the proceedings on the Committee Stage of No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Enterprise and Employment; 5. the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 15, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Agriculture and Food; 6. the proceedings on Second Stage of No. 3, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.00 midnight; 7. the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy shall meet on Wednesday, 23 June to consider and if possible and with the agreement of the Minister to conclude all remaining Estimates relevant to the Department of Tourism and Trade; 8. the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs shall meet on Friday, 25 June 1993, to consider and if possible and with the agreement of the Minister to conclude all Estimates relevant to the Department of the Environment; 9. the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy shall meet on Friday, 25 June 1993, to consider and if possible and with the agreement of the Minister to conclude all Estimates relevant to the Department of Enterprise and Employment; 10. the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy shall meet on Tuesday 29 June to consider and if possible and with the agreement of the Minister to conclude all Estimates relevant to the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 19.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal that business shall be interrupted at 12 midnight tonight agreed?

Proinsias De Rossa

Will the Minister for Finance tell the House why it is that so much business is being rammed through this House this week, that we have midnight sittings tonight and tomorrow night and a late sitting on Thursday while we have had virtually no business for the last month? We now have a sudden flurry of activity. Every Stage of every Bill coming before us this week——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order to debate this now.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am seeking information as to why it is that every Stage of every Bill coming before us this week is being guillotined. Fifty-five minutes is being given for the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. I have to ask if the Order of Business is agreed.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am asking for information. Could you give the Tánaiste or the Minister for Finance an opportunity to reply to my question?

Mr. O'Malley

Why is it proposed that we sit until midnight in order to take the Statistics Bill, 1993, which is scarcely either urgent or important while we cannot find time to debate a number of other matters of the greatest importance on this week's and next week's Order Papers? It is entirely unsatisfactory that Bills of considerable controversy and importance are scarcely being debated at all in this House but we are able to sit until midnight to take a Bill that is certainly not urgent.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Does the Minister wish to reply?

Minister for Finance (Mr. B. Ahern)

I understand that the Whips have agreed to this ordering of business. I do not know what item Deputy O'Malley is referring to but the House and the committees are sitting longer hours than normal to try to complete the business before the end of the session. Most of the legislation the Government is putting forward over the next few weeks consists of Bills that we have been pressed for a number of weeks to have completed before the end of the session.

Mr. O'Malley

The Progressive Democrats Whip certainly did not agree to that timetable for this week. She spent an hour and a half protesting against it. I wish that all Whips would realise, as she does, that one cannot put through important business of this kind in this way and that it is making this House totally irrelevant. We can find time to debate all these matters but a most serious event is happening in relation to Aer Lingus and this House can find no time to debate it. Even a committee of this House which was delegated to debate it is unable to do so because the witnesses from the company concerned refuse to turn up and thumb their noses at the committee and at this House. If this House continues to condone that kind of thing it is making itself irrelevant.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister asked if we could indicate what matters we were complaining about. We are not complaining about the fact that legislation is finally coming before us. On the schedule of business before us for this week we are only allowing 55 minutes for the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill, for instance, which includes a range of new offences, penalties and fines. That is a grossly inadequate time to debate an important new measure like this. I am raising this matter so that the Minister, on behalf of the Taoiseach, may review the way in which business is being dealt with this week and next week. Given that the Minister mentioned he is trying to get this business done before the end of the session, does he know when the end of the session will be?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am going to put the question. Deputies have the option to agree or disagree. Is it agreed that business shall be interrupted at 12 midnight tonight? Agreed.

Is it agreed that the sitting shall be suspended at 8.30 p.m. for 15 minutes?

Mr. M. McDowell

On that issue, 15 minutes may not seem a very long time but, if 50 minutes is to be given to an issue of very profound importance from the point of view of civil liberties, I suggest that if we have any time at all to spare we should not be suspending the sitting of this House but considering the Sexual Offences Bill. Let me amplify that. Last week this House debated the Presidential Elections Bill which was probably the most uncontroversial and least urgent measure.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not in order to raise that matter. I am endeavouring to go through the items on the Order of Business.

Mr. M. McDowell

It is, of course. We are being asked to agree to a systematic guillotining of very important measures and it is about time somebody in this House stood up and protested.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy not to stand while the Chair is standing. The Deputy is required to sit down when the Chair stands. I would be very grateful if he would adhere to that.

Mr. M. McDowell

This is most undemocratic. The point I was making is that this House has a duty to consider the legislation that is before it and it is abdicating this duty and, for certain political reasons, a legislative epidural is being administered to this House so that it does not know what it is doing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is it agreed that the sitting shall be suspended for 15 minutes at 8.30 p.m.? Agreed. Is it agreed that item No. 1 shall be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proposals in relation to No. 14 agreed?

Miss Flaherty

I want to make a protest. The information given to me only last Thursday morning was to the effect that the Unfair Dismissals (Amendment) Bill would go into committee during the recess. On asking which committee would deal with it I was told it would be the Select Committee on Social Affairs. We were all very happy with that. On Friday morning I was told that it was to be tabled for this evening so, in contrast to having a reasonable and leisurely opportunity to consider it in detail, we are confined to whatever is left after these shenanigans until 7 p.m. and an hour for Report Stage later in the week. That is a seriously inadequate time to debate a Bill of some substance. Could I have an explanation? How is it that I was so seriously misled last Thursday? What happened in the intervening hours between then and last Friday morning?

Mr. B. Ahern

This Unfair Dismissals (Amendment) Bill has been around for some time and it is important that it be concluded.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach said it was being taken by the Social Affairs Committee. I heard it myself.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is it not the case that the purpose of the special committees is to take Committee Stages of Bills and ensure that they are properly examined and that the legislation does not contain flaws which could be eliminated by proper discussion? Putting this through Committee on a time limited basis as is now proposed is directly contrary to the whole spirit of the reform of this House. Will the Minister reconsider his view and refer this matter to the committee rather than have it dealt with under a guillotine?

Mr. B. Ahern

I understand that the committees will all have legislation to deal with during the summer and that when this House rises the committees will continue to work. I understand that this committee has its own work programme for the summer and autumn months.

Mr. O'Malley

That is not correct. The legislation committee of this House has no work at all at the moment. It would be a perfectly appropriate and suitable committee to which this Bill could be referred. It is not good enough that Committee Stage is pushed through this House in two hour or so — it will be less than two hours now. My party is not agreeing to this. Our Whip did not agree to the Order of Business for this week. She protested at length, as I wish all the Whips had done. Then we would not be in this position. The Government should transfer Committee Stage of this Bill to a committee which has nothing to do.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is the Deputy's prerogative to disagree.

Question put: "That the proposals in regard to the Committee Stage of item No. 14 be agreed."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 82; Níl, 45.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhreathnach, Niamh.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Broughan, Tommy.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Ellis, John.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Flood, Chris.
• Foley, Denis.
• Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
• Gallagher, Pat.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hilliard, Colm M.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Hughes, Séamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, James.
• McDowell, Derek.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nolan, M. J.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Penrose, William.
• Power, Seán.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Ryan, John.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Eamon.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Carey, Donal.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Dukes, Alan M.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Finucane, Michael.
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Malley, Desmond J.
• Owen, Nora.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Foxe, Tom.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Harney, Mary.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Keogh, Helen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies Keogh and Rabbitte.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with Item No. 15 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 15 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 3 agreed? Agreed. Items Nos. 7, 8, 9 and 10 deal with the convening of select committee meetings. Are the proposals for dealing with these items satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

There is a problem concerning item No. 10, in that it relates to the Vote which incorporates Aer Lingus. All Members of the House should have the same information on this subject but it has emerged during the past few days that Government Deputies got privileged access to information on the matter. We have documentary evidence to that effect in a letter from the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. Furthermore, it has been suggested that the Chairman of Aer Lingus is prepared to talk personally to a Government Deputy, who happens to be chairman of a committee, and not to the committee. In fact, the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies, has been denied the opportunity of examining Aer Lingus on this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must dissuade the Member from making a speech at this stage.

Mr. J. Bruton

The House is being asked to take the Estimate on Transport, Energy and Communications in the dark, as it were, unless it is given all the information, on an equal basis; in other words, to all Deputies in the House.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am not aware of any information which is available to Government backbenchers that is not freely available.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have a letter here from the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications in which he says "I am enclosing for ease of reference copies of briefing material already sent to Oireachtas Members...". This material was sent only to Government backbenchers. It was not sent to all Deputies. I believe that is a breach of privilege. One of the basic elements of privilege in this House is that all Members be treated equally. Neither the Government nor Aer Lingus have any right to give information on a privileged basis to one side of the House only.

Mr. Dempsey

The Deputy might give copies of the material to Members on his side of the House.

Mrs. Owen

Minister for Equality.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall be asking shortly whether the proposal for the convening of these select committees is satisfactory and agreed. A brief comment from Deputy O'Malley.

Mr. O'Malley

Items Nos. 7 to 10, inclusive, relate to four different committees which will sit to deal with Estimates and nothing else. Many Bills on the Order Paper for this week and next require proper debate. Many of these are quite important and could be dealt with by these special committees but that will not be allowed. It is regrettable that the only business given to these committees is the consideration of Estimates. No real improvement has taken place as a result of the setting up of these committees and their future should be reconsidered.

I tabled a question on this matter to the Taoiseach today and it has been disallowed on the grounds that it is a matter for the House, rather than the Taoiseach, to consider what the committees should do. I believe the overwhelming view of the House would be — if it could be freely expressed — that the committees are a waste of time.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Deputy should speak for himself.

Mr. O'Malley

The four orders we are being asked to make now, items 7 to 10, vindicate that point of view.

Mr. Finucane

Not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy is aware, there are other ways of dealing with that matter.

Mr. B. Ahern

I totally reject the view expressed by the Deputy. It was agreed that the main priority of the committees for this session would be the Estimates. Normally at this time of the year the Estimates would be taken late at night or on a Friday in this Chamber. The whole format of the Estimates has now changed. They are much longer, too. Last week, both in the Seanad, where the Estimates for the Department of Finance and for the Office of Public Works were taken, and in the Dáil where the Department of Foreign Affairs Estimates were taken, we had very successful debates. It has been made clear also that during the summer recess legislation will be dealt with by the committees so they seem to be working successfully. The number of hours given to debates has been vastly extended and there is agreement also among the Whips that the workings of the committees be reviewed during the summer recess. To reject the concept of the committees before we get into a full session would seem very unreasonable.

Proinsias De Rossa

Deputy Bruton has raised an extremely important matter here in relation to item No. 10. Before we agree to this business, can we take it that all Deputies will be given exactly the same information and correspondence that all Government backbench Deputies are receiving? I do not intend to agree to item No. 10 unless we are given such a commitment. Does the Minister propose to ensure that there will be a full debate in this House on the question of Aer Lingus following the Government's meeting with Aer Lingus staff today and with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions?

Mr. B. Ahern

As I said at the outset, I am not aware of any privileged information.

Mrs. Owen

It is stated in the letter from Deputy Cowen.

Mr. B. Ahern

If there is a query about a letter I will mention it to the Minister.

Mrs. Owen

The Minister said the information was circulated to Oireachtas Members.

Mr. B. Ahern

If Deputy Bruton has the information I am sure it is widely circulated.

Mrs. Owen

All he has is the letter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to clarify that I have a letter from the Minister to the committee chairman in which it is stated that briefing material which had been sent already to Oireachtas Members was being enclosed. Fine Gael Deputies have not received that information but I presume Fianna Fáil and Labour Deputies have received it. Therefore, Deputies are not being treated equally in terms of access to information. I would be grateful if the Minister would look into that matter. As reference has been made to committees, in the view of my party, committees would work well if Deputies would attend. There has been an opportunity in committees for Minister to be questioned, a practice which did not exist previously.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the pros and cons of select committees now.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is the Minister for Finance giving a commitment that the information referred to by Deputy Bruton will be circulated to all Deputies?

Mr. B. Ahern

I will raise the matter with the Minister concerned.

Mrs. Owen

This information was probably given at the parliamentary party meeting, as was the case with telephone charges.

Proinsias De Rossa

A commitment should be given that this information will be circulated.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot force anyone to speak if they do not wish to do so.

Mr. O'Malley

I am a member of the committee to which this letter was sent and I was present when the matter was discussed. On the question of copies of briefing material sent to the chairman I told the chairman, Deputy Kavanagh, I did not receive this information. The Fine Gael representative confirmed that neither he nor his party received it either. The chairman confirmed that Government backbenchers received the information some time last week. It is entirely wrong——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has been given an opportunity to vent his grievance.

Mr. O'Malley

The least the Government can do at this stage is agree to circulate the material generally.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are now having quite an amount of repetition. I take it that the proposals in respect of items 7, 8 and 9 dealing with the convening of select committees are satisfactory and that there is contention in respect of item No. 10. I shall put the question in respect of the latter.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister wishes to reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is on his feet and is about to put the question.

Mrs. Owen

If the Minister replies there may be no need to put the question.

Mr. J. Bruton

If the Minister gives the relevant assurances there may be no need for a division.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will bow to the House.

Mr. B. Ahern

As the letter has been circulated to the committee chairman it is normal procedure that it be circulated to the Members. That has always been the practice in committees, but I will raise the matter with the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is item No. 10 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. O'Malley

I understand that legislation has been considered by the government in relation to the powers of committees, not just recently established committees but longer standing committees such as the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies. It was considered in the past in a Bill, but subsequently withdrawn from that Bill, that committees should have enforceable power to send for persons and papers and that in the event of refusal by a person summoned as a witness by the committee to attend, the committee would have power to have that person brought before it. The Chairman and the Chief Executive of Aer Lingus have refused the request of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies to appear before it — the Chairman has done so in a way that is totally unacceptable to the committee. May I ask the Minister for Finance whether the Government will, in these circumstances, introduce legislation urgently to enable that committee and other such committees to compel people they wish to interview to appear before them?

Mr. B. Ahern

The Bill dealing with that matter is being prepared and will be circulated in due course. That will be at least in the next session.

Mr. O'Malley

In view of the fact that the Government——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us not argue about the matter. The Deputy has made his point and has received a reply. We cannot go further on the matter today.

Mr. O'Malley

I am not arguing. I welcome the Minister's reply. The Government has accepted in principle that this legislation should be introduced and it is to be taken in the next session. Could it be conveyed by the Government to the Chairman and the Chief Executive of Aer Lingus that since this will be law in some months' time, they should observe the spirit of what is about to be law and attend the committee to be examined before it?

Mr. Kavanagh

As chairman of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies I have been requested by the committee to write to the Taoiseach asking him to bring forward legislation in this area as soon as possible. Regarding the letter by Aer Lingus which was sent on behalf of Mr. Cahill, I rejected and approach by Mr. Cahill to ring him, and the committee accepted that and praised me for my stance in the matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Minister did not respond to my earlier request for a debate in this House on Aer Lingus. Given that the Government is having meetings with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions today and has had meetings with Aer Lingus management, surely it is time the issue was brought to the Floor of this House for discussion so that serious consideration can be given to what precisely is proposed in regard to the survival of Aer Lingus.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy knows full well, a request for a debate may be dealt with in another way.

Mr. J. Bruton

On 15 June the Taoiseach promised that in the next few weeks legislation on juvenile justice, which is urgent in view of the level of juvenile crime on the streets of Dublin and other cities, would be brought before the House. Will the Minister for Finance arrange to have this Bill published before the summer recess so that Committee Stage may be taken on the special committee concerned during the recess?

Mr. B. Ahern

The Taoiseach has repeatedly said that this Bill is receiving urgent consideration, but I understand it will not be ready until later this year.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach said——

An Ceann Comhairle

There can be no argument now. I am calling Deputy Jim Mitchell.

Mr. J. Bruton

——that this legislation would be introduced in a few weeks. Why is the legislation slipping backwards? It is very important——

An Ceann Comhairle

Indeed it is but the matter may be pursued by way of question or motion in this House.

Mr. J. Bruton

——in view of the level of crime — almost half of all crime is committed by juveniles.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Jim Mitchell.

Mr. J. Mitchell

I wish to raise a similar point to that raised by Deputy John Bruton. The Bill dealing with privilege and compellability of witnesses appearing before committees has been promised repeatedly by the Taoiseach during this session. The effectiveness of committees is being greatly hampered by the lack of legislation. Will the Minister undertake to the House to see if it is possible to have the Bill introduced in this session?

An Ceann Comhairle

We had a reply to that question.

Mr. B. Ahern

The Bill will be introduced later this year.

Miss Harney

On last week's meeting between the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister it was indicated by a spokesperson on behalf of the Taoiseach that the extradition legislation would be introduced shortly. May I ask the Minister if the legislation will be introduced before the summer recess?

Mr. B. Ahern

It is still the intention that the legislation will be dealt with before the summer recess.

Mr. M. McDowell

The Taoiseach indicated to me some time ago that the ports authorities Bill would be introduced and dealt with in this session. Is that still the Government's intention?

Mr. B. Ahern

That Bill is under preparation but I do not believe it will be ready before the summer recess.

Miss Flaherty

I hesitate to clarify what might be going on at the Select Committee on Social Affairs but it was decided that as the Unfair Dismissals (Amendment) Bill would not come before the committee the matrimonial property Bill would be taken by the committee on 15 July. May I take it therefore that time will be made available to discuss Second Stage of that Bill next week?

Mr. B. Ahern

It is intended that the Bill will be introduced in the House before the summer recess and that it will be before the committee during the summer.