Michael McDowell
Question:9 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for the Environment the involvement his Department will have in the provision of halting sites for travelling people; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Travellers Halting Sites.
The responsibilities of my Department in relation to the programme for provision of halting sites for travellers extend mainly to: policy aspects; the provision of finance for the construction of sites, for which a special allocation of £3 million is available annually; the encouragement of local authorities to press ahead with their sites programme; and the provision of a general advisory and supervisory service to ensure that technical standards and cost control procedures are observed.
Responsibility for assessment of the accommodation needs of travellers, and for the planning, initiation, construction and maintenance of halting sites, is a matter for individual housing authorities.
In view of the Minister's reply I would like to probe this matter a little more deeply. From my experience in Dún Laoghaire there is much concern about the cost of specific sites. For instance, for a three bay site in Dún Laoghaire the initial cost was quoted at £250,000, which seems exorbitant. What is the Minister's role in ensuring value for money and how does this figure compare with figures for other sites? How does the Minister intend to access needs? For example, how does one determine who is in greatest need?
We will insist that we get good value for money. Unit costs per site are normally about £25,000 outside Dublin and about £40,000 in Dublin. As long as we are satisfied we are getting value for money we will not allow a cost factor to prevent development of the programme. I ask Deputies who are members of local authorities to ensure that in making proposals there is control over cost.
Would the Minister accept that in the provision of halting sites some local authorities make adequate provision and have done very well — Cork Corporation is a case in point — while other local authorities have not met their obligations in this matter and therefore there is a huge number of unauthorised encampments throughout the country? Will the Minister require local authorities to make provision for a fair share of halting sites in each local authority area?
In the overall programme for the accommodation of travellers emphasis is placed on provision of halting sites and an annual capital allocation of £3 million is set aside for this purpose. On 30 March 1993 I wrote to the chairpersons of housing authorities enclosing details of the number of travelling families in each county and county borough area as per the count carried out in November 1992, the latest available data, and urged them to make a major effort to increase the programme of accommodation for travelling people in their areas. Cork has an excellent record in this regard.
Cork Corporation, not Cork County Council.
Cork Corporation has an excellent record. The House should be mindful that the policy of the Progressive Democrats and the Government is to devolve authority to local authorities from central Government. I am mindful that there is now a demand that we take back authority when there is a thorny issue to be handled. That is not the policy and it is up to the elected members and local authority managers to fulfil their obligations. The provision of finance is not at issue. If the £3 million provided is not adequate this year further provision will be made to meet the demand, and that has always been the case. It is a matter for local authorities to get their programmes up and running.
May I ask——
There are a number of Deputies offering and I will call them provided they are very brief.
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply. I accept the general policy in this area, but would the Minister accept that the experience is that certain local authorities have not met their obligations? No matter what the theory is, there is need for the Minister to use some carrot or stick to require local authorities in certain areas who have not met their obligations to so do.
We are having repetition.
The difficulty is that people in this House say one thing from a party position while their members at local level campaign against the provision demanded by their parties.
They may campaign against it themselves.
That creates a difficulty, particularly in this situation. I ask all parties to ensure that their members at local level support the policies put forward in this House by the parties. That might overcome the difficulty being experienced.
I invite the Minister to examine my record in relation to voting for halting sites.
And mine.
I have no difficulty whatever in that regard.
Would the Minister accept that to expect local councillors to vote for halting sites in their area is unrealistic? Ia this not a function of the executive at local authority level rather than of the elected members? Would the Minister accept that, for example, there is no halting site whatever in Wicklow and the position in Dublin county is so bad that the local authority proposes to open two temporary sites in west Dublin, each of which would accommodate 40 families? Would the Minister agree this is unacceptable for travellers and also for the settled community who have to take the whole burden of what is a huge national problem? Would the Minister agree that the £80,000 sanctioned by his Department by way of grant aid to a local authority for a halt and washing facilities, excluding site costs, is grossly inflated? The Department should ensure that the sum is more realistic because it is hindering the provision of additional halting sites. The figures of £250,000 for Shankill and £240,000 for the Turnpike site—
Please, Deputy Harney, we are having a speech.
——sanctioned by his Department are grossly inflated. Local authorities must ensure their costs are in line if we are to have a realistic programme nationwide.
While there is no halting site in Wicklow the county won a national award for the design of a halting site.
That is a joke.
The county has a good record of housing travellers in accommodation other than halting sites and quite a lot of work has been done in that regard. Therefore because there is no halting site in the county does not mean nothing has been done. Temporary halting sites are not the best solution. Whether halting sites, housing or temporary halting sites are provided I will ensure we get value for money. The fact that some halting sites may be expensive will not prevent the provision of halting sites in other areas. If financing above what is being provided is required, it will be provided.
I will call Deputy Boylan and then Deputy Gilmore for a final question but I would ask Deputies to please be brief. We are making very little progress at questions today.
Does the Minister agree that a distinction must be made between travellers and itinerants and that the case of the itinerants, the poor people, has been overlooked because of the number of travellers who are not poor, who travel the country and who are involved in many activities and that regulations will have to be introduced to provide that only limited numbers of these people can converge on any one site at any one time?
I will certainly make a clear distinction between those we call travellers and rich mobile merchants whom I would condemn for their anti-social activities and their damage to property and everything else when they move in in large convoys. I would like that to be more effectively controlled by the local authorities and the Garda.
There should be a specific basis for addressing needs. That would address the point Deputy Boylan was making. With regard to costs incurred for sites, who decides on the specification for sites? I have been informed that the specifications would match the specifications for the new security wing in Wheatfield Prison.
The specifications for sites was agreed with my Department and other interested voluntary and statutory bodies in 1985 and circulated to councils at that time. They have not been changed since. The specifications are of a very good standard. The specifications have been used all over the country to good effect. On halting sites there are now 834 families and 1,814 families are in council houses. On the roadside there are still 1,180 families. About two-thirds of the travelling families assessed as being in need have been accommodated. The other one-third on the roadside must be accommodated. The assessment is carried out by the local authorities who this year have been instructed to include the need for halting sites as a new point in the assessment. We get quarterly progress bulletins from all local authorities so that we can have a clear view of what is happening.
Which Government Department now has responsibility for the settlement of travellers? I understood from the programme for Government that this was being dealt with by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. A task force has been established by that Minister.
Under the Programme for a Partnership Government the Minister for Equality and Law Reform has been given responsibility for articulating and implementing policy in relation to travellers. This does not affect the statutory responsibility of the Minister for the Environment in relation to the accommodation of travellers.
The Labour Party is responsible.