Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jul 1993

Vol. 433 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Aer Lingus Rescue Plan: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Noonan(Limerick East) on Tuesday, 6 July 1993:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to reject the future strategy plan put forward by Aer Lingus; condemns the Government for its lack of an air aviation policy; and urges it to bring forward a fully costed alternative plan to put Aer Lingus on a sound footing.
Debate resumed on amendment No. a1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
"Dáil Éireann
—notes the Government's commitment in the Programme for a Partnership Government to ensuring the commercial future of our national airline as part of our overall air transport policy;
—notes the serious financial position of Aer Lingus;
—notes that the airline's annual internal operating costs must be reduced by £50 million in order to restore it to commercial viability and the urgent need for a full and comprehensive agreement between management and unions in this regard;
—notes the discussions between management and unions to explore means of financial participation by Aer Lingus employees in the future success of the company as a tangible recognition of the contribution required from the workforce to overcome the crisis;
—notes that the Government, as shareholder, will make a major contribution to returning the airline to viability;
—endorses the Government's approach and the general thrust of the Aer Lingus strategy to restore the company to a strong and viable position at the core of Irish aviation, having consulted with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions; and
—supports the further development of the Government's aviation policy as being in the best interests of the Irish economy."
—(Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.)

The effect of the Government decision on Aer Lingus will be the write-off of 1,500 jobs and the sell-out of Shannon airport and the mid-west region. The decision runs totally contrary to Fianna Fáil and Labour policy on regionalisation and decentralisation and represents a total reversal of commitments made in this House on 27 and 28 October last by speakers from both parties and during the subsequent election campaign. The Tánaiste, Deputy Dick Spring — I am glad he is present this evening — when commenting on the decision by Deputy Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, the then Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, not to change the Shannon status, said here on 27 October 1992, at columns 891-92 of the Official Report:

I never believed that a Government decision to desert Shannon would help Aer Lingus and I have always argued that the Shannon issue should be treated as an issue of regional rather than aviation policy, but I condemn the dithering in which the Minister has indulged on this issue. She has allowed and encouraged fear of the future, and uncertainty about the prospects of economic survival, to prevail throughout the mid-west for far longer than was necessary and she has set one region of the country against another in a way that has been most unhelpful for the economic development of both regions.

I wonder how the people in the mid-west feel now. The Tánaiste has made a complete U-turn on his commitment to maintain the Shannon status. On the same occasion you referred to the response by the Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, to the Aer Lingus crisis.

I would prefer if the Deputy would address his remarks through the Chair rather than directly to any Member of the House.

The Tánaiste said at column 894 of the Official Report of the same day:

The Taoiseach's response to the crisis of Aer Lingus was sadly another unfortunate example of his glib, unthinking and cavalier approach to any issue of major importance. This Taoiseach, it appears, does not know the difference between partnership and privatisation, between strategic alliances and asset-stripping, or perhaps he just does not care at this stage. He is at his most revealing when saying the first thing that comes into his head and what he has revealed about his grasp of Ireland's national interest in this area does not bode well for the future of Aer Lingus and this country.

The Tánaiste's words on that occasion were prophetic. Obviously his attitude towards the Taoiseach has since changed.

I would be grateful if the Deputy would bring his speech to a close.

The abandoning of the Shannon status will have a devastating effect on the mid-west, including Kerry and throughout the west. It will lead to loss of confidence and a resulting loss of investment in the region. It is well known that considerably more US tourists who disembark in Shannon make their way to Kerry and remain longer than those who disembark in Dublin. Hotels, guest-houses, car hire firms and all other sectors of the tourist industry will suffer——

The time has come to call another speaker.

May I finish briefly? The most serious aspect of the sell-out on the Shannon status by the Government is the damage it will do to democratic politics in Ireland. Only weeks before the last general election both Fianna Fáil and Labour gave cast iron guarantees that the Shannon stopover would be retained in its current structure and would not be interfered with. The people of the west, south-west and north County Dublin have been grossly misled and conned by senior politicians and current Ministers. Democracy and truth are the casualties of the Government decision, as are some of the commercial and tourist interests in the mid-west, including those in County Kerry and throughout the west.

I propose to share my time with my colleagues, Deputies Seán Ryan, Shortall, Kemmy and Ray Burke.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

As a member of the Cabinet sub-committee on aviation, I have examined with my colleagues the strategy put forward by the executive chairman of Aer Lingus and the painful implications for all concerned. We have consulted widely with ICTU, Aer Rianta, Shannon Status, Signal and a host of other groups and organisations on these issues. I have examined the proposals bearing in mind the specific commitment that we gave in the Programme for a Partnership Government that we would ensure the commercial future of our national airline as part of our overall air transport policy. The action we have taken is a fulfilment of that commitment.

There is an overwhelming need for an injection of equity into Aer Lingus to deal with the accumulating £1 million per week loss in the company. I believe there is no choice but to capitalise on the non-core business assets, such as the hotel chain, and to alter the present status of the Shannon stopover. Payroll costs have also to be addressed.

The Government commitment is completely predicated on the basis of management and unions negotiating a viable operational plan for the company to bring it back into profit over the next two to three years. I am confident that the trade unions and management of Aer Lingus will agree because their future is at stake and both sides are committed to the survival of the national airline.

In the process of negotiation with the trade unions and management the Government is not saying "you have no choice but to accept what is on offer". There are options within a framework. For our part, we have simply put in place a number of supports and protections for the company. Taken together with the series of cost reductions and approval for the package from the European Commission, the Government will make, on behalf of the taxpayer, what is a truly massive sum of money available over the next three years to restore Aer Lingus to profit and viability. It is a much better option than the privatisation that was promised by the Progressive Democrats and Fine Gael.

We never promised privatisation.

The Minister is in a position to deliver.

The Minister has always been against Shannon.

Deputy Carey must desist from interrupting.

The Shannon stop is not being scrapped; it is simply being changed. Last October undertakings were given in good faith but nobody realised the deeply precarious state of the finances and the scale and extent of losses in Aer Lingus. We have now arrived at the juncture where we are dealing with the survival of this national asset, and we intend to maintain it as a national asset. I, with my colleagues, intend to ensure the future of this company in public ownership. The future progress of both Aer Lingus and Shannon are inextricably linked. Success for Aer Lingus means that Shannon will be the location for the headquarters of a significant new company in the Aer Lingus family. No reduction in flights in or out of Shannon will take place. My Department is monitoring the industrial and economic infrastructure of the mid-west region to ensure that any impact from the change in status of Shannon will be minimised. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications will negotiate changes to the present bilateral agreement with the United States. I have every confidence that Shannon Airport and its associated entities will continue to make a significant contribution to the mid-west region. I have much faith in Shannon and in SFADCo.

The bargain that is essentially being struck here is that the Government, on behalf of the taxpayer, is giving £175 million in equity on the understanding that negotiations will result in the much needed reduction in overhead costs in the company. I know all sides are committed to achieving as far as possible the reduction in numbers required in Aer Lingus through a voluntary scheme. The question of participation by Aer Lingus employees in the future success of the company should be dealt with as a tangible form of recognition, with an additional contribution being asked of the workforce during the present crisis.

I expect management will be sensitive to the whole question of redundancies, bearing in mind the essential need to preserve the skills-base of the company and to maintain all services.

I remind the House that we are not entirely sovereign in these issues. The European Community has a vital say in the field of aviation in the Single Market. The Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications will be seeking, as a matter of urgency, the formal approval of the EC Commission for the Government's strategy and in particular its sanction for the proposed investment of equity in the company — probably a never to be repeated opportunity under current Community law. I am conscious that the credit lines to the company expire at the end of August. I believe that all parties will work to have an agreement in place by then. Aer Lingus is a symbol of our national pride and it is simply tragic that through a series of mistakes and errors it has got itself into its present situation.

The Government will do all in its power to secure the future of the national airline, but it cannot work on its own. I pledge that my Department will assist in the process of negotiation in every way. I understand that the Chief Executive of the Labour Relations Commission is in touch with both sides about the overall situation in Aer Lingus. I am particularly conscious that the commission is available at all times to TEAM to assist both parties to resolve the difficulties they currently have.

As I pointed out earlier, under European competition law our ability to help is effectively a one-shot operation. That is why we must get it right this time. There have been huge changes in the world in the last few years and this Government is committed to monitoring that change to ensure as few negative consequences as possible for the Irish economy. I recognise, however, that change has to happen and that change must be effective. We intend to have the political courage to recognise that and to manage that change.

(Interruptions.)

I condemn the decision taken last week to lay off some 300 TEAM Aer Lingus workers.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Any decision on the TEAM workforce must be taken in the context of the overall survival strategy plan. I call for an investigation into the role of management in the operation of the company and the lack of consultation between management and staff. It is important to have proper consultation procedures in the future.

The crisis which has befallen Aer Lingus represents the biggest economic tragedy of my political life. The jobs that will be lost as a result of this crisis will devastate the constituency I represent. The loss of income and the loss of spirit will be a body blow to the north side of Dublin and further afield. The only thing that would be worse would be the loss of Aer Lingus. I could not possibly vote for the Government amendment were it not for the alternative. The alternative to getting to grips with the Aer Lingus problems would be a catastrophe in about a year. It is difficult for me to vote for the Government amendment tonight, but it would be virtually impossible for me to support a political party whose only approach to Aer Lingus in the past has been to cut deeper and to propose privatising the company.

Deputies

Rubbish.

(Interruptions.)

I did not run for election in order to preside over job losses in Aer Lingus. In the last election campaign I promised the people of Dublin North that my party would never let Aer Lingus down. My party manifesto promised substantial equity to strengthen Aer Lingus and equip it for the future. I also said that there would be no privatisation of Aer Lingus and that I was totally opposed to any involuntary redundancy. The Cahill plan is a brutal, heartless prescription. It could not commend itself to any Member of this House who cares about jobs, the economy of Dublin or the welfare of the people he represents.

A Deputy

Are you voting for it?

The only thing that can improve the Cahill plan is to have it replaced by an agreed strategy. Such a strategy would involve sacrifice, but any strategy around which workers and management can mobilise would be an improvement on the imposition of change implicit in every line of the Cahill plan. The only reason I will support the Government tonight is the commitment given this afternoon by the Minister committing all sides to achieving necessary redundancies through a voluntary means. Throughout my political life I have been a loyal member of the Labour Party and a committed supporter of Aer Lingus. I know that my party in Government and the Labour backbenchers have worked tirelessly over recent months and will continue to work hard to protect the future of Aer Lingus. The Labour Party has stood by Aer Lingus.

(Interruptions.)

I will put down a marker. I now speak on behalf of my Labour colleagues in North Dublin.

Goodbye Shannon.

We cannot and will never vote for compulsory redundancies in Aer Lingus. The Aer Lingus workers are not responsible for the problems and cannot be asked to make this sacrifice. An agreement to tackle the problem is vital. I will never support arbitrary measures or imposed solutions to these problems.

(Carlow-Killkenny): Except tonight.

I have never cast a more difficult vote in this House, but on the basis of the commitment and agreement by the Government and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions we will be supporting the Government amendment in order to ensure the future viability of Aer Lingus.

It is the Government amendment on which we are voting tonight, and not the Cahill plan. Deputy Ryan spoke for all of us in the Labour Party who represent the people on the north side of Dublin and for every member of the Labour Party when he spoke of the pain involved in the decisions we have to make. We must face the fact that where Aer Lingus is concerned we will require harsh measures in order to save the company. He spoke for us too when he criticised the opportunism of Fine Gael in the motion before the House.

I met hundreds of Aer Lingus workers in the last few months. They are angry and bitter and they have every right to be so, given that the growing problems in Aer Lingus were ignored for the past two years. Not one of them believes they would be better off if Fine Gael were in a position to make decisions on their future today.

(Limerick East): The Deputy's party is in a position to do so now.

The party which has promoted this debate and which is shedding so many crocodile tears about the future of Aer Lingus would not be prepared to lift a finger to save jobs if it was in Government. Indeed, I shudder at the prospect——

This is like Russia — propaganda.

——of a Fine Gael dominated Government dealing with the implications of the present crisis.

(Interruptions.)

Order. I remind the House that there is a strict time limit to this debate and interruptions are quite unwelcome if not disorderly.

Aer Lingus is not the only airline to have been affected by the worldwide downturn in the aviation business. The airline business is changing rapidly. Everyone knows that air transport is undergoing a revolution. Neither the Government nor the Labour Party can change that reality. We can and must act now to try to equip Aer Lingus to face the future with confidence. A first step is to provide equity. The injection of equity that has been decided by the Government can only be seen as a first step. If more is ultimately needed we should not allow our hands to be tied and our vital national interest threatened by bureaucratic European rules.

That is what the Deputy is voting for.

I do not believe that the French or German Governments would allow themselves to be told that they cannot do what any normal prudent shareholder would do if there was a need for equity in any of their assets.

In addition the emphasis in the negotiations that will now begin must be on the need to reach agreement. I do not want to be told in one month's time that the management of the company is only going through the motions which is what it did in relation to the consultation process undertaken earlier. Neither do I want to be told that it is essential, to secure the airline's future, that management be given carte blanche to decide who they want to fire. For this reason it is essential that a proper negotiating structure is established to monitor all discussions and to ensure that the agenda is not tilted in favour of one side.

The ESB Industrial Council could be used as a model given as it is geared to act as a problem solving body. It would facilitate the adoption of an even-handed and open approach to serious issues, none of which will be more serious than those which will have to be dealt with in Aer Lingus in the coming months. If agreement is to be reached much more than goodwill will be required, honesty and openness will also be required, two characteristics which have not been hallmarks of Aer Lingus management in recent years.

We should recognise that the solution to the problems of Aer Lingus is not in redundancies. As I understand it, the company is seeking to reduce its payroll costs by £34 million annually across the group. The union members to whom I have spoken fully recognise that there is a need for large scale cost reductions and many have said that they are prepared to put forward imaginative ideas to reduce costs and increase the competitiveness of the company's support services without the need for job losses. Indeed, they should only be considered as a last resort.

That is not a naive or simplistic proposition. Every Member of this House knows that job losses are inevitable but the number does not have to be as great as the media headlines would have us believe if all sides approach the issue determined to minimise the number. If there must be redundancies I share the determination of my colleagues that they will be voluntary. The package put together and approved by the Government should help to ease the hardship involved. The Enterprise Development Unit, which can capitalise on the skills and talents right across the company in seeking new opportunities, must be properly resourced. We do not want any cosmetic exercise.

It is my sincere hope that the plan for Aer Lingus will work. We have little choice but to accept that the plan put together is being presented in good faith. However, there must be no hidden agendas. The late Frank Cluskey once said that there were two reasons to prune a tree, first to encourage further growth and the other vandalism. If there is a hidden agenda to prepare Aer Lingus for privatisation that would amount to vandalism of one of our greatest national assets. We are voting to try to secure the future of the company; we will never vote for vandalism.

When I came into the House tonight I was not seeking concessions or quarter from anybody; I always speak my mind. Tonight I am speaking on my own behalf and on behalf of my Oireachtas colleagues in the mid-west. I will not pretend I am voting on behalf of somebody else; I know what I am voting for and I will not resign from the party on this question. I do not believe in histrionics as they achieve little. One can make pyrrhic gestures to gain headlines in the newspapers but that is all they are good for.

I understand that two of my parliamentary colleagues in the Clare constituency have resigned the party Whip but that is a matter for them. It is important to understand that Clare is a volatile constituency, almost as volatile as the constituency of Limerick East where there have been many casualties during the past ten to 12 years. Indeed, I have seen a few off myself during that period. Two Senators are waiting in the wings in the Clare constituency. There was an example of people breaking ranks in Limerick but some time later the people concerned returned to the fold. As far as I am concerned, that is not the source of deep divisions. If, however, somebody leaves the party and remains outside for between ten and 20 years that would be a source of division and an important issue but there is no point resigning and letting others do the work. I will stand my ground on this issue and speak my mind in this House and elsewhere. It would be easy for me to resign and gain headlines on the issue——

Make the piece short.

I will do my best, Deputy.

Fianna Fáil is supposed to have ten minutes.

The Deputy heckled my Government colleague and I could do the same if the Deputy continues. He should behave himself.

The plan before the Government, whatever its shortcomings, is the only one that has been presented. I have neither seen nor heard about any other plan produced by a party in this House. Time is not on our side and Aer Lingus will go to the wall in a matter of weeks if some plan is not implemented. The aviation sector is volatile and Aer Lingus will have a desperate struggle to survive.

The change in the status of Shannon has been signalled for some time by leaks to the press and other means. I fear that industry and tourists will drift towards the eastern seaboard. We must fight and guard against this but there will still be no guarantee that Aer Lingus will survive; indeed, only time will tell if Shannon will survive.

This morning it was heartening to hear Dr. Brendan O'Regan, a founding father of Shannon, speak about this issue in a calm objective and measured way. He is no longer young but he was full of hope and optimism which I share. Despite his own difficulties in GPA, Dr. Tony Ryan recently, in speaking about the sterile debate on the Shannon versus Dublin issue, said that we should not get bogged down on this question and should look beyond it. While I do not see eye to eye on this issue with Dr. Ed Walsh, director of the University of Limerick, it is important to remember that those three people are working on the issue.

There will be a transition period while the bilateral agreement is renegotiated and this presents us with an opportunity to do something. I call on the Government to give Shannon Development an enhanced role in the future and to link it with the Plassey Technological Park at the University of Limerick to support the infrastructure which has been provided in the mid-west. There is no point in crying over spilt milk. While one can shed crocodile tears and wring one's hands this will achieve nothing for the people I represent; I intend to assist the mid-west region in a postitive way and not to whinge or cry. As I mentioned, only time will tell what the future holds for this region, there is nothing to be gained from living in the past although we should learn from it.

It is important to find a way forward not only in the field of aviation but in other fields. We will not find a solution if we run away from reality. We have to face it and do the best we can to meet the challenge in the mid-west. I will do my best to face up to it and will not indulge in hypocrisy in this House, as if people on all sides of the House were whiter than white or born again economists. We should do our best for the people.

The Government is doing its best in the national interest which has been interpreted to mean many things in the past but as Connolly said: "Ireland as distinct from her people means nothing to me"; the people must come first.

The Labour Party had a different interest six months ago.

What does Deputy O'Malley know about it?

(Interruptions):

I am a tough and resourceful Deputy and I can hold my own with any Deputy in this House. I do not need help from anyone in tackling them. I would mop them up for breakfast any morning. I can deal with this issue without help from anyone. I apologise to Deputy Burke — I was heckled by some Deputies——

The Deputy is not doing too badly on his own.

I can defend myself. So far as I am concerned, the fight for the mid-west and Shannon still goes on.

Aer Lingus is in a critical position. It is vitally important from the point of view of the Irish travelling public, the employees in the Aer Lingus group of companies and the Irish taxpayer that remedial measures be taken. It is even more important that the correct measures are taken. It is by this yardstick that the proposals put forward by Mr. Cahill and the Aer Lingus management must be judged.

What we have before us is a book-keeping exercise which takes no account of the long term needs of the Irish consumer and asks the employees and taxpayers to carry the burden without any clear vision as to the future of the national airline. This sterile book-keeping exercise is the third such effort since last October from the same author. These efforts have been accompanied by dire warnings and broad media briefings that if immediate action is not taken the liquidator will move in. I reject the simplistic nature of the cure proposed — that one third of the staff of the core business should be made redundant, the subsidiaries should be sold, services such as catering, cleaning, etc., should be privatised and an injection of equity should be secured from the Government. The books might be in order, but what will be left?

Let us examine for a moment the much publicised losses of the group in 1992-93. While the situation is undoubtedly bad, it has not, as has been widely suggested, been brought about by overpaying staff and unacceptable work practices. The reality is that the group's shareholding in GPA was written off and this had an impact of approximately £45 million on the profit and loss account. To make the situation look even worse, the balance sheet has been hit in one year with the full £50 million restructuring costs. The one area which shows a profit is the subsidiaries, excluding hotels, and they should show an estimated profit of £20 million. The irony is that this latter achievement, which was the basis of the establishment of the subsidiaries, that is, to assist the air transport operation in difficult times, is going to be rewarded by the sale of the subsidiaries. Decisions in relation to the Aer Lingus group must be taken against the background of recent results, not one year's results. During the period 1983-92 the company made a profit of £108.4 million after tax, interest and extraordinary items in the group.

Lest I fall into the trap of merely giving figures, I wish to refer to the human tragedy of this situation. Many thousands of families are facing an uncertain future in a company to which at least one member of the family has given loyal and dedicated service. How are they being rewarded for this service? They hear on a daily basis from management and other sources that they are a drain on their fellow taxpayers. They are unsure whether they will have a job in the future and whether they will be able to meet their mortgage, education and other family commitments.

I wish to refer to the TEAM workers and their experience. On Friday, 11 June these workers were given protective notice and the following day they were told they would have to work overtime. After discussions with the union the notices were put on hold. Last Friday 300 of these employees were fired and they were given their P45s on Monday, despite the fact that these are not necessary for social welfare claims. These 300 staff are permanent employees of the company and 60 of them transferred from the parent company to TEAM on its establishment in 1990. At the time of the transfer they received a letter which stated:

The purpose of this letter is to advise you on a personal basis that while you will be required to work within TEAM you will however remain a member of Aer Lingus staff and will retire as a member of Aer Lingus staff, retaining full Aer Lingus retirement conditions. Your rights, privileges and seniority, etc., will be protected.

The letter finished by stating, "This letter is a personal guarantee to you from Aer Lingus". The letter was signed by John O'Neill, general manager of personnel. While these 300 employees are laid off their colleagues are told they must work overtime.

It is appalling that in 1993 people can be treated in a manner which can only be termed a throw back to the worst abuses of the old casual labour system on the docks — if a ship came in which needed unloading, workers were called in. It is the same in TEAM — if a plane comes in which needs maintenance the men will be called back, but if there is no plane they will not be required until October. This is outrageous carry on by a company which has great potential and which has recorded a profit.

How will the Deputy vote?

I ask that the workers in TEAM Aer Lingus be reinstated and that Mr. Cahill be removed. The Fine Gael motion before us tonight is nothing more than political gamesmanship.

How will the Deputy vote?

I have no difficulty in voting against the motion when one considers the record of that party in terms of its treatment of Aer Lingus down through the years. It is a matter to regret that the future of this company and its workers was the subject of unsustainable political promises from the Labour Party during the general election.

The time has come to call another speaker.

The predicament of the employees of this company has been made all the worse by their belief that they have been deceived.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Sargent and Gregory and a Fine Gael speaker.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I wish to refer to the impact of this crisis on the staff in Aer Lingus, the way in which they have been and are still being misled, and the way in which one message is being put out by the Government for public consumption while something quite different is happening in practice on the ground.

The bottom line in the Cahill plan for Aer Lingus is that the airline's loyal, hard-working staff are being asked to endure the pain. The equity which is to be put into the company, £175 million, is much less than needed and less than half the £400 million which Bernie Cahill said was needed only four months ago. Moreover, it is phased over three years and at best will reduce the debt. It is a payment to the banks to keep them off the company. It is too little and it is too prolonged.

The change in the Shannon stop is no doubt painful for that region but at least the Government is recognising that Shannon must be compensated for the loss of the stop. Already there has been a parade of company chairmen and executives, the Taoiseach and Ministers to Shannon to smooth the troubled waters.

What is being offered to the staff? We are told that £5 million per annum must be achieved through cost cutting and that 80 per cent of that must come from the payroll. Ultimately, that will mean that the staff of Aer Lingus will be forced to shed jobs and to endure worse working conditions. All the fine Government aspirations over the past few weeks that there will be no compulsory redundancies is nothing more than a continuation of the misleading of the staff which has gone on since the beginning of this crisis.

The staff of Aer Lingus have been misled by the Government since the beginning of this crisis and the Government is continuing a dishonest double speak to the company's employees. The staff were politically misled last November by the Tánaiste and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. They were misled by the Taoiseach at the launch of the Fianna Fáil manifesto when he said "We cannot and will not allow Aer Lingus to flounder". They have been floundering ever since. They were misled by the Government over Bernie Cahill's appointment and over the way in which the rescue plan was to be evolved. "Partnership" is the buzz work of this Government and when the Minister announced the appointment of Mr. Cahill last March he told us that the plan would be evolved in a spirit of partnership, through discussion with management and unions.

Responding to my Private Members' Motion on Aer Lingus on 6 April last the Minister stated:

Since the House last discussed the matter fora have been established, consultations are taking place and there is a management commitment to consult the unions and the representatives of the workforce at all stages before the formulation of major policy proposals, so that everybody has a say in the future of the company and those who have a stake in the company have their say. That is something that I, as a former Minister for Labour, would insist upon, quite apart from the fact that it is an obligation under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. That obligation will be honoured.

Of course, we now know that the unions were not consulted, that the staff had no input into the Cahill plan and that they got more information about the future of their company from well-placed journalists around this city than they did from Mr. Cahill and the management.

From the time the plan was presented there was an attempt by the Government to stand back, to pretend it had made no decision on it and to let the unions and management at it. This pretence has now been exposed; it is inconceivable that Mr. Cahill appeared out of the dark to the Minister with the plan and that there was not ongoing contact between the Minister, his Department and Mr. Cahill before the plan was submitted. Indeed, the Government's ultimate decision announced last night that the plan has been accepted in full has confirmed that the Minister had given his effective approval long ago.

The meetings with the Congress of Trade Unions and the assurances apparently given that there would be no compulsory redundancies cannot be reconciled with the Minister's statement last night when he told us that £50 million in cuts would have to be acheived, no equity would be put in until the unions had agreed to the £50 million in cost cuts and, further, there would have to be proof that these cuts were being implemented. Like every Member of this House, he knows that there will not be anything remotely approaching 1,500 voluntary redundancies in Aer Lingus and that if he insists on £50 million being achieved in cuts the only way it can be done is by force.

There is no point in Deputy Seán Ryan coming in here and saying he is not voting for compulsory redundancies. He will never be asked to vote on a motion seeking compulsory redundancies, but the fact is that when he votes for the Government amendment endorsing the Government's policy which endorses the Cahill plan, he is voting ultimately for enforced redundancies at Aer Lingus.

No doubt about that.

There is no point in Deputy Shortall saying that she is not voting for the Cahill plan. Voting for an amendment that endorses the Government's approach and the Government having stated it endorses the Cahill plan means that one is voting for the Cahill plan. The laying off of 300 TEAM Aer Lingus workers last Monday is the beginning of the blood letting at Aer Lingus. TEAM Aer Lingus and its staff has been the subject of a whispering campaign since the beginning of the Aer Lingus controversy and it is seen now apparently as the softest target for job shedding.

While the Minister is delivering his cherubic aspirations to ICTU and to this House that he hopes there will be no compulsory job losses, the management at TEAM Aer Lingus are wielding a big knife and laying off employees in the hope of putting the frighteners on the Aer Lingus staff so that if they have not reached agreement by the end of the summer season they too will get the same treatment. What is happening this week at TEAM Aer Lingus is a dress rehearsal for the way the Aer Lingus saga will be acted out. Telling the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the public that the hope is that there will be no compulsory redundancies is meaningless when you know every well that the only way you can achieve cost cuts of £50 million is by compulsory redundancies and by forcing the staff to accept measures that they will not volunteer for.

Of course what we are not being told in all the exaggerations about TEAM Aer Lingus is that it is owed £32 million and in fact it has been turning away work. In the past few weeks alone, I am told, it has turned away work from Ryanair and Teamlift. Neither are we told that TEAM Aer Lingus does not have the servicing of some of Aer Lingus's own fleet. What is happening at TEAM is the softening up process for ultimate compulsory shedding of jobs in Aer Lingus. This exercise is a drip approach by Government. First we are told there is a huge problem, then we are told it has not accepted the Cahill plan, then the Cahill plan is accepted. Congress are told there will be no compulsory redundancies, then we are told it is hoped there will be no compulsory redundancies, when it is very well known that at the end of the day there will have to be.

The Cahill plan will destroy Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus will not survive the loss of 1,500 jobs, whether achieved voluntarily or compulsorily. There seems to be an opinion in the Labour Party that job losses are OK if they are voluntary. Job losses in Aer Lingus are not OK and 1,500 job losses, however they are achieved, are not OK. The effect of the job losses will destroy the company as it will not be able to continue to deliver the kind of service expected.

Next Monday week will mark the anniversary of the first manned flight in Ireland. It happened in a hot air balloon outside the door of this House on Leinster Lawn. The successful pilot, Mr. Richard Crosby, took part in this famous event in 1783, almost 210 years ago. Much has happened in Irish history between then and Mr. Cahill's plan for Aer Lingus. However, I am afraid that the element of hot air is still a very large factor in discussing the future of Irish aviation and of Aer Lingus in particular. It has been said, and I have seen it written, that Aer Lingus must be assessed from a commercial and not a political viewpoint. If ever there was a gross oversimplification of a crisis, that is it. If commercial viability is our only yardstick I expect it will not be too long before Iarnród Éireann will be on the agenda, not to mention Bus Átha Cliatha and Bus Éireann. Let us not confuse providing a service with wasting money. Whatever about political merit, it is certainly not polite or politic to run off and announce redundancies before negotiations are finished. Neither is there any excuse to let go 300 workers from TEAM Aer Lingus before negotiations has even begun and before the plan was even announced. These reckless actions indicate not a political or commercial reaction but sheer panic.

I believe the management has certainly a responsibility for this, but so too has the Government, which shortsightedly used the company down through the years as a source of revenue and, in the eighties, as a placement option to artificially take more people off the dole in an attempt to hide the real failure of succesive Governments to solve unemployment. Will the Government be brave enough to admit that their previous policies were both shortsighted and foolish?

The banks have also panicked and this has panicked the Government and the management. I am still awaiting a response to my suggestion that the Aer Lingus debt should be managed by the professional experts in the National Debt Management Agency. At present British, Irish and Japanese banks are dictating terms to Aer Lingus. Whatever about Irish banks, I do not see the British and Japanese banks doing Aer Lingus any favours in regard to interest rates. This is why I suggest again that those who manage our national debt and can secure the most favourable rates are the best people to take over the Aer Lingus debt.

Aer Lingus, with its huge debt, will have great difficulty in entering into partnerships with a larger group of airlines. We all have to take responsibility for that debt because we all benefited from it in the good times. The Aer Lingus dividend was spent by Government on our behalf and it is now time that the Government paid it back on our behalf. I am not only speaking from a political point of view but from the commercial stance, because if we do not clear the debt, more people will be made redundant in the future and these well trained people will be going to competitors. This will put Aer Lingus at a disadvantage. In fact the rescue plan will cause immense hardship through forced redundancies not only to the workers but to the taxpayers as well who will be paying the social welfare bill. It will bring hardship to mortgage holders. A man from TEAM Aer Lingus came to me on Sunday evening. After selling his house he now finds that he cannot get a mortgage for another house. Shopkeepers and all other ancillary activities in the Fingal area will suffer and many more will be made redundant. This plan is not only cruel, it lacks imagination and a wider vision. The potential of work sharing and a guaranteed basic income has not been developed. I share Depty Brian Fitzgerald's view, which is reported in this evening's Evening Herald that 500,000 jobs can be created in this way. It is positive, radical but it has not been communicated to the Government.

Apart from having no imagination, this plan lacks vision. Aer Lingus is an Irish airline and that is its best selling point. It enjoys the reputation of a first class safety record. It is renowned for the friendliness of its staff and it continues the age old tradition of Irish people travelling, which goes back to St. Brendan and St. Killian. If everybody realised that this plan is wounding the goose that lays the golden egg by crippling the workers and the whole area of Dublin North perhaps we could start afresh and consult everybody in drawing up a holistic plan for the airline and Irish aviation. Aer Rianta needs to be involved, as their turnaround charges are nearly the highest in Europe. The Government needs to act as a responsible shareholder this time and ensure that Aer Lingus is cleared of its debt and that the workers are not punished for problems that are not of their making.

I will be voting for the motion before the House calling on the Government to reject the Cahill plan and demanding a fully costed alternative plan to put Aer Lingus on a sound footing. I wish to support also the Democratic Left amendment which acknowledges the importance of seeking to maintain every Aer Lingus job while it (a) ensures that no member of Aer Lingus staff is made compulsorily redundant; (b) increases the amount of equity promised to Aer Lingus over the next two years and (c) uses EC Structural Funds to ensure that Aer Lingus is able to provide air access to Ireland and to our main European markets. I understand that some members of the Labour Party have several reservations about the Cahill plan. Let me say to them as members of that party they should have 1,500 reasons for honouring their pre-election promises and voting against the Cahill plan. In this context I respect the very honourable stand taken by Deputies Tony Killeen and de Valera in resigning the party Whip. In doing so, they are honouring their commitments to the people who voted for them to represent their views and their interests in this House.

There are six Labour Party TDs representing the north side of Dublin who should be following Deputy de Valera's and Deputy Killeen's example, not, of course, on the issue of the Shannon stopover but on their commitments to protect the jobs of Aer Lingus workers and to provide the national airline with sufficient equity.

Yesterday I received a telephone call from a worker in TEAM Aer Lingus, or I should say a former worker, who was one of 300 employees TEAM let go in the last few days. The worker who spoke to me had given up a good job in order to join TEAM. He has a young family and a mortgage but now he has no job. He is one of those who believed the promises of the Labour Party candidates in the last election. What message have the Labour Party for that worker and for the many others like him? Labour TDs stated that they would oppose compulsory redundancies, yet their first test on this is a vote tonight and it seems they will fail that test and hide behind the Government amendment. Let us be clear, a vote for the Government amendment is a vote for massive redundancies, a vote for insufficient equity and a vote inevitably for privatisation. The Cahill plan demands the loss of approximately 1,500 jobs. It is estimated that something close to 1,000 of those would be compulsory redundancies, perhaps more than 1,000. When non-core subsidiaries are sold off, how many more will lose their jobs?

The Labour Party leader, Deputy Spring, repeatedly promised that there would be no privatisation. The cynical response now is to change the terminology and refer only to disposal of assets, as long as they are non-core assets of course. The real question facing Aer Lingus workers is, when this process has been completed, will there be anything left? The £175 million equity is clearly inadequate, at £75 million in the first year and an estimated £47 million to be spent in redundancy payments, yet Aer Lingus paid a total of £224 million to the Exchequer in PAYE and PRSI contributions between 1983 and 1991. Surely Aer Lingus deserve an amount of equity at least equal to the amount they put into the economy over the last ten years.

On the issue of direct flights to Dublin, I believe it is a logical and necessary move and one that should have been done several years ago. In the past I had accepted the necessity of positive discrimination in favour of the disadvantaged area of the west, but the fact is that Dublin has now become the most disadvantaged area in the State. While I do not claim to be an aviation expert, it seems to me direct flights to Dublin have become a necessity for very pragmatic reasons.

Within the region of 300,000 people out of work, it is a scandal to plan for the loss of another 1,500 jobs. A national emergency was declared, quite rightly, when 800 jobs were threatened and eventually lost in Digital. One of the Ministers travelled to the US to save those jobs. Surely if the political will is here now that could be done, and perhaps use of EC Structural Funds would be one way to do it, instead of this obsessive pursuit of mass redundancies which will have a devastating effect not just on the workers and their families and on the national airline but on our whole society.

Deputy Durkan. Ten minutes remain.

I propose to share my time with Deputy Flaherty.

In the economic climate which has prevailed for the last 18 months I can understand readily how the workforce in Aer Lingus would look around at an upcoming general election and wonder which party or combination of parties presented them with the best prospects for their future. I suppose they came to the conclusion, with some justification given what was said previously, that Labour and Fianna Fáil presented the best options for them and their future and they accepted that in good faith. What did they get? One massive let down, the biggest in the history of the State. It would not have been so bad if the pedigree of both parties has not been stitched so firmly into the public record in their commitment to Aer Lingus, the national airline, the national corporation that could provide international transport, and then they let them down. What about the two parties who were so firmly committed to Shannon? What will the people of the mid-west think tonight of the parties who committed themselves again and again to the principle of the Shannon stopover? Where have their commitments gone? What have the parties said and done to justify their turnabout in the last couple of days?

We have heard a great deal about the number of resignations; there have been some already and some are pending. The only honourable thing to do for each Government party or the combined Government parties is to resign en bloc because that is the only way they can justify their existence after the turnabout they have wrought upon the people in Aer Lingus. As they walk up those stairs tonight let them think before they vote against the Fine Gael motion. Let them think seriously about the people of Aer Lingus who will not know tomorrow night or the night after how they are going to pay their mortgages or educate their children or how in the future they will handle commitments they have entered into.

Remember, not only has there been a full turnabout, but Aer Lingus has missed privatisation only by virtue of the fact that they were not in a healthy enough state to be privatised at present, otherwise they were gone. I submit that the preparations now being put in place are nothing more than the preliminaries towards privatisation. Within two years, far from the Cahill plan being a solution which is a Government solution as well, we are going to have another solution, somebody's else's solution. It will be gradual closure and Aer Lingus will eventually be restricted to the extent that they will not be able to operate as a national or international airline. They will become a third world type operation. That is a sad reflection on the kind of promises made by the people on Government benches over there.

The last and sickest joke of all was when the Government tried to divest themselves of their responsibilities by pointing over at the Opposition and calling it opportunism. This is a political forum. The duty of the Opposition is to point out the inadequacies of Government, and that is what the Opposition are doing tonight. It is the duty of Governments to govern, to live up to their commitments whether they are made in Government or in Opposition, and in fact the parties opposite have made them in both places. It is a sad reflection on the Government with the biggest majority in the history of the State that the best they can do by way of commitment to the national economy is to let go 1,500 workers in one of the biggest companies in the State. If this is the best this Government can do I hope they do not do much more. It can honestly be said of them that never in the history of political endurance was so much promised by so few to so many with such disastrous and disappointing consequences for those to whom the promises were made.

This House should reject the Cahill plan because, as my colleague argued last night, it will not ensure the viability of Aer Lingus and I say, being from the North Dublin area, because of the devastating job losses it imposes which will affect North Dublin especially. With matters as they stand with 300 jobs being transferred to Shannon it will mean job losses in the Dublin region on the scale of 1,500 to 2,000 when subsidiaries and downstream employment are taken into account. When I drafted my few words here tonight I had not a single political comment to make. I listened to my constituency colleague, and the other Labour Deputies from North Dublin who tried to cover the nakedness of their position by a blatant political attack on Fine Gael which was exaggerated and ill-founded, and I could not let their statements go without comment. I canvassed in the election and I know Fine Gael stood for a commitment to support for Aer Lingus in equity. Our party did not suggest that there could be an open-ended cheque book as the Labour Party said. We insisted there would have to be a viability plan and we did not pretend that could be done without some redundancies. Similarly, we did not suggest that all the assets of Aer Lingus would remain untouched while the Labour Party assured them they would. Every one of the promises of the Labour Party has been dishonoured. Tonight they add to that the suggestion that they are not voting for redundancies and are not voting for the Cahill plan.

It is a mirage.

Did they listen to the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, last night when he said that the equity will only be put into Aer Lingus when the job losses have been delivered and no sooner? The Labour Party Members are voting for 1,500 redundancies at a minimum. We have seen a few tears shed for north Dublin and it was only tonight we heard what is happening there. What a contrast, and one of my colleagues from north Dublin referred to this, with the Government's visit to the US to save 800 jobs in private industry. We are now talking about a semi-State company who should expect more. It was reputed that £40 million was available to keep jobs but now £45 million is available only on condition that 1,500 jobs are shed. Surely there is a tragic incoherence in that for Dublin and Shannon. In the face of that I congratulate the workers, largely based in Dublin, who have never sought to make the Dublin case over Shannon and who have argued that the workers must stand together to try to protect as many jobs as possible wherever they are based.

Last night I heard the Minister say that in the dispersal of £8 billion Cohesion Funds special attention would be given to Shannon. That is right and proper and I welcome it but I heard no assurance that any special attention would be given to the Dublin or north Dublin region. Dublin is suffering not just in the air transport area but its port is blocked by lack of access. No development is taking place in the north side of the city because of inadequate infrastructure in roads, sewerage and drainage. No development can take place until those issues are addressed.

I hope that the last Government speakers will give some reassurance that Dublin will be looked at in the same way as the Shannon region for some compensation for the huge losses proposed there.

As the details of the Cowen-Cahill-Owen plan sink in a number of important points arise. The fact that the equity is being phased in over three years reduces its current value to £100 million; that is a far cry from the expected sum of £175 million. The bulk of that equity in the first year will go towards redundancies and, therefore, only a pitiful amount of £19 million approximately will be available as equity this year. The burden of debt will hang over the company into the next 18 months. Given the radical surgery proposed by Cowen, Cahill and Owen — I apologise I should have given the Minister his proper title——

Thank you.

——by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, Mr. Cahill and Mr. Owen what are the terms of contract of each of these key players? In the next reshuffle will the Minister move on and bury this as a bad memory? Will the reputedly handsomely paid Mr. Cahill and Mr. Owen be around to lead the company through and beyond this restructuring? How long will their contract run and will the Government make their terms of reference public?

There is a vacancy in Irish Steel.

Can the Minister explain the new conditions he included in his contribution last night on the conditions applying to the equity for the absolute delivery of all the terms of the rescue plan? I share the view of Deputy Ray Burke when he said this plan is entirely about cost-cutting. There is nothing about new business possibilities and it took the union to put that on the table. At that point the unions have absolutely no information about where the 1,500 job losses are proposed to come from or from what sectors or what areas and they do not know when they will have that information.

I am concerned, too, about the position in TEAM Aer Lingus. Many colleagues referred to the 300 workers who got their notices last Friday. There are very serious questions to be asked. They include the level of confidence existing in the management of TEAM Aer Lingus. Any effective plan must adequately answer those questions. The plan, as drafted, does not do that, does not ensure the viability of Aer Lingus and involves the loss of 1,500 jobs, an intolerable proposal.

First, I would like to comment on the second element in the original motion before this House. This reiterates the calumny, that the Government has no aviation policy, despite the fact that the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Cowen, has articulated in this House, exactly what the Government's aviation policy is on numerous occasions.

It is the prerogative of anyone to disagree with elements of this policy. Indeed, some Members have done so, in a very constructive manner, and we respect their criticisms. However, I believe that, in fairness, it should also be acknowledged that both this and the previous Government's policy, has been unreservedly endorsed by both the Culliton and Moriarty committees.

I would remind the House that the membership of these committees included representatives of a wide variety of national interests, including distinguished representatives of the banking and business communities, as well as the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

I am not here to score cheap political points on this topic, because I fully agree with the point made last evening by Deputy Harney that the onus is on us all not to play party politics with this very important national issue. I readily acknowledge that the aviation policy, which the Government is pursuing, is not a totally new one which this Government alone has devised. Rather, it is a building on the foundations of policy laid down by successive Irish Governments, during the 1980s, including Governments in which the main Opposition parties participated.

(Limerick-East): It was profitable in 1987.

This Government has built on these policies and adapted them, where necessary, to the changes which were rapidly taking place in world aviation. Our aviation policy is not, nor indeed should it be, cast in stone. It continually must take cognisance of changes in the external environment and is adapted to reflect these changes.

It was not cast in anything until recently.

A Deputy

The Deputy is a union man.

It is the responsibility, and, indeed, the duty of Government to manage change. This Government has fulfilled its duty in that regard. We will continue to do so.

Over the cliff.

We will, as soon as possible, fully articulate precisely what up to date policy is, after certain current developments are fully clarified and completely finalised.

A Deputy

What about Shannon?

Mar buile scoir, on this subject, I am concerned that there may be some misunderstanding in relation to the Government's role and the scope available to us, in relation to aviation policy.

That is for sure.

For example, the suggestion has been made that this Government should have exercised direct control, over the level of fares on the London route. While we can, and did, use moral persuasion to seek a change in this aspect of policy we have no legal powers to control these fares. Under EC rules, airlines have complete commercial freedom in regard to fares policy.

(Limerick East): Nonsense.

Who wrote that script?

The third element of the original motion, urges the Government to bring forward a fully costed alternative plan to put Aer Lingus on a sound footing. Does this imply that the Government should now run Aer Lingus? That is not the task of any Government. It is the duty of both the board of directors and the management of the company. In any event, the luxury of such a procrastinatory approach is simply not available.

Cast the ball out to the wing.

Some very constructive comments were made and questions asked yesterday evening. I obviously do not have sufficient time to cover all of them.

The Minister should say something about Shannon.

However, I will do my best to cover as many as possible. Deputy Noonan made a number of substantive points. He suggested that the figure for the Government equity injection of £175 million has been "plucked out of the sky". I can assure the House that this is not the case. This figure is based on detailed financial projections and market analysis, for the four divisions of the airline which are being set up. Deputy Noonan also claimed that the figure for redundancies of 1,530 was inaccurate and that the real figure was nearer to 2,500. I can assure the House that there is absolutely no foundation for this claim. The figure of 1,530 is the absolute maximum number of job losses according to Aer Lingus.

A Deputy

That is a disgrace.

The Government has clearly indicated that it seeks to minimise the level of job losses, subject to the relevant negotiations.

(Limerick East): How can the Minister talk about job losses?

Who wrote that script?

Last night Deputy Noonan threw out various statistics like snuff at a wake. A number of them were inaccurate. For example, Deputy Noonan claimed that in the year ended March 1992 Aer Lingus transatlantic operations showed a profit of £10 million. I would refer Deputy Noonan to the annual accounts for the year ended 31 March 1992. They indicate clearly that the transatlantic route incurred an operating loss of almost £9.5 million last year.

(Limerick East): The Minister did not include the revenue.

Deputy Dukes made some substantive points with which I agree. He said we should look for access to more US cities in the interest of developing traffic for Aer Lingus through Shannon. This is something the Government fully accepts. We endeavoured to do this in the past.

I assure the House that we will be looking for additional rights in the US in the forthcoming renegotiation of the bilateral agreements. The House may also wish to note that the previous Minister, Deputy Maire Geoghegan-Quinn, sought additional rights to Miami, Washington, San Francisco and various other destinations in the US in September 1992, but those were not granted.

She sought nothing at all.

This is disgraceful conduct.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, without interruption, please.

Deputy Dukes advocated that we should move quickly on the renegotiation of the bilateral agreement in view of the current and proposed talks between the US, the United Kingdom and the European Community authorities. That is precisely why the Government decided to seek change now.

What did the Minister do about the Phoenix hub airport offer?

A number of Deputies referred to the need for Aer Lingus to enter into alliances.

What did the Minister do about the Phoenix hub airport offer?

That is something which this and previous Governments have fully endorsed. It was one of the major points the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, made to the board of Aer Lingus when she met them in October last.

Where is she now?

I wish to refer to the interventions of both Deputies Cullen and Harney last night. While I do not have time to go into detail, I endorse some of the points they made. There are two specific issues on which I should like to comment. The first relates to the question of the bankers to Aer Lingus' "sharing the pain", as both Deputies put it. Aer Lingus is a commercial company which must first put its own house in order and demonstrate its viability and ability to meet its ongoing commitments.

This is disgraceful.

The Government, as shareholder, decided to accept this necessary Aer Lingus strategy and financially to support our national airline. We expect that the banks will be prepared to offer normal facilities to the company on fair and reasonable commercial terms.

The factual position is that Aer Lingus needs to achieve a net reduction of £50 million in its annual operating costs. How precisely this is to be achieved is a matter for negotiation between the management and the unions within the company; a bottom line of £50 million in cost reductions must be achieved if the company is to return to viability. The Government has approved a voluntary retirement severance package to help achieve this.

This Minister is going around in circles.

We expect those negotiations to be vigorous and forceful on both sides. Nobody could expect the unions representing workers in Aer Lingus to favour the company's strategic plan or the Government's decisions or to regard the plan as something they could automatically endorse.

I want again to put on the record of the House that the people employed in Aer Lingus have contributed enormously to building up the airline and have a reputation second to none for their commitment to a competitive quality product.

That is a fat lot of good to them now.

The Minister, without interruption, please.

The Government is fully conscious that we are asking for sacrifice now. As a tangible form of recognition for the additional contribution being asked of the workforce, the Government has accepted that Aer Lingus employees should have a stake in the future success of the company. I hope the Government's commitment to this initiative will give meaning and significance to the negotiations, which must be successfully concluded for the sake of the long term future of the airline and the jobs therein.

I reiterate the assurance given yesterday by the Minister, Deputy Cowen, and given last October by his predecessor, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, that the Government's commitment to regional development and to the mid-west and western regions, in particular, is firm and resolute.

(Interruptions.)

This will be evident in the provisions of the National Development Plan when published later this year. I commend our amendment to the House in the best interests of our national airline.

(Interruptions.)

That is a disgrace.

The west's asleep.

I wish to share my time with Deputies O'Malley and Noonan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Those of us on this side of the House have done our best to be constructive and positive in our contributions to this debate because we have borne in mind at all times that we are discussing the future of one of our greatest national assets, Aer Lingus. The Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, has turned this debate into a farce. There is an old saying that, "those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad". As I listened to the Minister's contribution I recalled that old saying once again. He did not give a responsible reply to the reasonable and forward looking points made in this debate by Fine Gael Members and others. It was an insult to this House to reply to the debate in such manner. A number of major issues are involved. Will this plan work? We believe it will not.

What are the Deputy's alternatives?

In one or two years' time we will be back in this House discussing the survival of Aer Lingus in circumstances where our options will have run out and the European Community will have told us we have availed of our last chance. The Minister has admitted that. Our last chance will be gone if we do not take it here tonight. We have listened to the argument about whether there will be forced or voluntary redundancies in the airline, but it is accepted that there will be redundancies with all the pain and hardship that will cause. If members of the Labour Party believe there will only be voluntary redundancies they ought to have their heads examined. It is obvious there will be enforced redundancies. Some of those currently employed in Aer Lingus will be forced to take redundancy against their will.

Another matter of concern to the Labour Party was that of privatisation. Will Aer Lingus or any of its subsidiaries be privatised? I have copious quotations here of commitments given prior to the election, during the election campaign and since the election that no part of Aer Lingus will be privatised, yet we have already seen evidence of creeping privatisation. Those who want to salve their consciences should not do so by stating that there will be no privatisation.

At one time the Tánaiste spoke about £400 million in equity and stated it was essential that such equity would include refurbishment and renewal of the fleet in Aer Lingus. My colleagues and I had a briefing with members of the unions prior to this debate and they told us that the £175 million equity effectively means £82 million spread over a period of three years when one takes account of interest payments and the redundancy payments to those forced to leave Aer Lingus. Those are some of the matters to which the Minister should have referred. He should have given reassurances to the people involved rather than giving assurances in the privacy of his party's rooms that Deputy Ryan and others are prepared to accept. Nothing the Minister, the Tánaiste or any member of the Government said will leave those people with any credibility if they vote against this motion this evening. If they do so, they will go against their commitments and party policies which were pledged in order to win seats in the last election.

Deputy Killeen nailed his colours to the mast. He stated he cannot continue with any credibility to support this Government and has relinquished the whip. What about Deputy Bhamjee? Where is he this evening? He certainly secured his seat on the Shannon issue.

He is here.

I have searched for to find a commitment on this matter from Deputy Bhamjee on the records of this House, but he has given no such commitment.

He will do more than Deputy Currie.

Deputy Bhamjee is banjaxed.

I am aware of the difficulties those people are experiencing and I respect those who stand up and are counted, but Deputies who did not even put their views on the record of this House are a different matter. No Deputy can escape responsibility for his or her decision this evening; they cannot say it is not their responsibility. This is the responsibility of the Government and the Ministers they support and it is the responsibility of their predecessors. They were the people who appointed the board of management and took the decisions. The buck stops here and we must not forget that. If Members' consciences let them down, hopefully members of the public will deal with them in the future.

Because of the very restricted time available to me I have to confine my remarks to only one of the issues of great concern flowing from the Government decision, namely, the proposed alteration of the Shannon stop policy and the profound concerns that this has legitimately raised in the Shannon and wider mid-west and western regions.

I am also very conscious of the deep fears and anxiety of over 1,500 Aer Lingus workers who face the loss of their livelihoods. I am keenly aware of the sense of trauma and trepidation now gripping many people in the regions faced with this fundamental policy change. They are furious at the way they were misled by the Government statement of 27 October last. Those who issued and dishonoured that statement have deservedly lost any remaining credibility. Those who support them have equally lost their credibility and honour. Deputy "Mighty Mouse" Kemmy and his friend, Deputy "Church Mouse" O'Dea, were fulsome in their assurances to the electorate last November that Shannon would be interfered with over their dead bodies. Will they now act like Deputies Killeen and de Valera, or will the trappings of power be too big a temptation for them? In February of last year Deputy Killeen called for my resignation from the Government because he claimed I was not doing enough to save Shannon. How he wishes he had me back now.

The Deputy did not do anything.

I listened to Mr. Brendan O'Regan talk about the people of the mid-west who are as united as they were in 1959 to overcome this adversity. It does not follow, however, that they will do so as easily, for the simple reason that in 1959 the people had the Government fully behind them. Mr. O'Regan should remember the help he got from Seán Lemass and others and contrast it with the present time when the Government is using the undoubtedly huge problems of Aer Lingus, even though they know in their heart of hearts that these problems are not caused by Shannon. To pick up the pieces and to try to minimise the damage, the people of the western half of Ireland will have to insist that no further assurances or promises from either the Government or Aer Lingus will be accepted or believed. They will have to insist that no change of any kind be made until after a new bilateral agreement has been negotiated with the United States, signed and sealed. This renegotiation will have to provide for a strict total limit on the number of direct flights from Dublin each week on all airlines who will share in that limit and who will be bound to provide a specified number of flights to and from Shannon as a condition of availing of Dublin. This will have to be directly enforceable by the Irish Government and must be legally binding before it is introduced. This is as much in Aer Lingus' interest as in Shannon's because Aer Lingus at present is not strong enough to survive a free for all on the Atlantic.

(Limerick East): I never thought I would witness in this House the Parliamentary Labour Party collectively voting to abolish 1,500 jobs in a State company. I never thought that I would see the Labour Party pretending that this was the end of the redundancies and accepting the Minister's assurances that this is so. Tell that to the people from TEAM Aer Lingus at the gate, 300 of whom got their P45s on Monday, and another 150 of whom are under threat, while the Labour Party and the Fianna Fáil Party here in the House believe that the total number of redundancies in TEAM will be confined to 250.

When Cara is sold off, as it will be under the Cahill plan, can the Government Deputies in this House guarantee that the jobs will be protected by the private company that buys them? When the ancillary services, baggage handling and catering are privatised in three years' time, can the members of the Government in this House guarantee that there will be no redundancies when they have to compete in a free market?

I thought you were in favour of privatisation.

(Limerick East): We are not talking repairing Dublin Corporation houses now.

(Interruptions.)

(Limerick East): When the Copthorne group and the other major subsidiaries like Parc are sold off, do the Government claim that it can control their purchases and have no job losses in the private sector?

You do not want to control the private sector?

(Limerick East): The real figure for redundances in the plan being endorsed by the Minister's amendment here tonight is approximately 2,500 and anybody who thinks there will be a replay in the House over the summer to give the Labour Party an opportunity to vote against that is not living in the real world. One of the most nauseating sights in Irish politics is the Labour Party wrestling with their conscience and always winning.

You do not have one.

(Limerick East): It is one of the most difficult things to witness in Irish politics. It is difficult to witness it in neutral circumstances——

Fine Gael do not have a conscience.

(Limerick East): At least Deputy Ferris abolished the jobs in Clonmel before they came.

(Interruptions.)

(Limerick East): The Minister said it was a calumny to say that this Government has no aviation policy. He said it was consistently following the aviation policy as set down by its predecessors. What aviation policy led to the loss of £17 million in the Aer Lingus holiday company, whether through incompetence or fraud? Why has nobody yet been brought to book? What aviation policy supported the decision to fly a Los Angeles route, lease two 767s and mothball them in Dublin Airport and continue to pay $.75 million a month in leasing fees? Is that an aviation policy?

Ask Deputy Des O'Malley.

(Limerick East): What aviation policy underpins that? What aviation policy underpins the situation whereby Aer Lingus and the Minister's Department continued to sell every seat on every plane leaving Dublin for Heathrow at a loss until they had accumulated annual losses of £23 million? What aviation policy underpinned that decision?

Last night the Minister made extravagant claims about the benefits to the economy of the well worked out aviation policy which this Government pursues. Again he trotted out the same tourist statistics, which confuses emigrants going to and from the United Kingdom looking for jobs and returning for welfare. Subdenly they become tourists. He said the contribution of aviation policy and of the aviation industry to our economy in the last three years was in excess of £500 million. Is it a coincidence or merely an ambiguity that the total debt of Aer Lingus is £40 million more than that? Yet we are told we have an aviation policy.

We are rejecting the Cahill plan because it is not set in the context of an aviation policy. Decisions are being taken piecemeal about airports, regional and national, about Aer Lingus, about fares, about the Shannon status position. There is no pattern whatsoever. We also say that it is not feasible to put Aer Lingus on a sound footing in the way in which European air carriers are developing without looking now at partnership arrangements. European air carriers are being organised in five large groups.

It sounds like privatisation.

(Limerick East): Four of them are in large groups already. Unless Aer Lingus quickly gets involved in partnership arrangements with Lufthansa or Air France or British Airways, it will become a minor commuter airline plying the route between London and Heathrow. It will be off the North Atlantic and it will be feeding into the major international carriers at a European hub, either Heathrow or elsewhere.

I thought that you were opposed to privatisation.

(Limerick East): I am surprised that I am constantly heckled by Deputy Stagg.

Let us hear the Deputy in possession, without interruptions.

(Limerick East): I know there is a tradition among Ministers of State that if one takes the shilling one follows the band.

The Deputy has not got a band to follow.

(Limerick East): At least Deputy Stagg could have some sense of shame and not show his face here in the House tonight to preside in such a loquacious fashion at the obsequies of a great State company.

He is going to sell the Ballymun flats to pay for it.

(Limerick East): We are all proud of Aer Lingus. The shamrock on the tail of the plane is synonymous with the national flag. There are Aer Lingus families all over this country who have given great service over the years but who are worried tonight and not impressed by the false promises made to them by the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach or any of his Deputies either in the mid-west region or in the hangar at Dublin Airport. The day of retribution will come. The members of the Government parties may run, but they cannot hide. The electorate have long memories and they will be waiting.

My principal objection is that this will not work.

I would like to pay tribute to Deputies de Valera and Killeen. Those Deputies made promises and they are standing honourably by them. They are putting the rest of the Deputies to shame, particularly Deputies Bhamjee and Kemmy and Fianna Fáil and Labour Deputies representing the north Dublin constituency.

This is parish pump politics.

Where is the Labour Party now?

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 80; Níl, 52.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 80; Níl, 49.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bhamjee, Moosajee.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • McDaid, James.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Keogh, Helen.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
Top
Share