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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jul 1993

Vol. 433 No. 9

DÁIL SELECT COMMITTEES AND JOINT COMMITTEE ON GENERAL AFFAIRS: STATEMENTS. - Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs.

I am delighted to have the opportunity of opening the debate this morning on the new legislative committees.

The setting up of the new select committees and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs is the most far-reaching, innovative and substantive development in the evolution of reform structures that the political parties have sought over 20 years to bring into being in order to make the proceedings of this House and the Oireachtas more efficient and relevant not only to us as Members but also to the the general public. It would not be rash to hope that the success of the new arrangements will help to determine the thrust and structure of even more reforms.

Each of the committees has parallel and very extensive functions under their orders of reference in respect of legislation, consideration of Estimates and law reform. These new committees in dealing with the essential constitutional work of Dáil Eireann are in effect microcosms of the Dáil and I am glad to record that they are already establishing a political, parliamentary and media profile for themselves. Undoubtedly, the committees substantive remit will enable them to play an integral role in helping to facilitate greater and more frequent participation by Members in those areas in which they may have a particular interest or expertise. Such opportunities for participation by Members can only enhance their role in the business of the House and, by virtue of the specialist nature of each committee, encourage Members to articulate their views on the wide spectrum of activity of each committee. In so doing they will improve the overall quality of debate on the business of Dáil Eireann.

My experience to date as Chairman of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs suggests to me that the co-operative spirit in which the new committees were established has translated extremely well into positive and efficient work in committee. There is a palpable sense of co-operation and goodwill on the part of all Members and even at this early stage in our existence the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs has been successful in progressing extremely complex Bills through Committee Stage, i.e. the Finance Bill and the Waiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Bill. Certainly the working relationship between Members seems to be less confrontational and more amicable in committee than on the floor of the House itself and I feel that this has been achieved without the Opposition Members on the committee in any way putting at risk or diminishing their primary role as an effective Opposition Indeed, it has been a personal and political pleasure for me to chair proceedings where invaluable work has been accomplished efficiently and without any evidence of parliamentary rancour or frayed temper manifesting itself.

The select committees, of course, are still obviously in their infancy and over time it will be interesting to see how we proceed to develop and explore our role. There are many possibilities open to us to develop in a substantive way our powers to operate through sub-committee, and this is an avenue we will explore as we gradually establish through familiarity with our terms of reference and practice over time, an integral and purposeful role for ourselves as the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs.

One point I would like to make is that I feel that the private sessions on Bills at which committees are briefed by officials will themselves have benefits for Civil Service management. These sessions will, I am sure, broaden their understanding and experience of the role of committees in the parliamentary system and of the function of the Opposition in its role vis à vis the Government of the day. I think I can say that civil servants, perhaps wisely or unfortunately, may have tended in the past to approach committees of the Houses with a certain trepidation and this is understandable. The involvement of civil servants even in this limited and still embryonic way in parliamentary business will, one would hope allow for a greater flow of information between parliamentarians and administrators and the rapport being created must make for a greater appreciation on the part of all of each other's respective roles. Certainly the experience to date in my committee should serve to illustrate for civil servants the fact that parliamentarians are not political ogres and that we genuinely seek to improve qualitatively the efficiency of Government administration and equally, if not more importantly, our input into the legislative process. I fervently hope that the Government will watch the operation and effectiveness of this particular initiative and no doubt over time we will identify other areas in which this consultation facility between parliamentarians and civil servants could be expanded.

At present, the proceedings of the committees are only televised when they relate to consideration of departmental Estimates and Committee Stages of Bills. This will change, of course, when the promised legislation on the question of witnesses's privilege has been put in place and I understand this will happen before the end of the year. Indeed I am sure all Members will look forward to the additional scope this will give all committees of the Houses to make their proceedings even more relevant for the wider public. Such a development will go some way to demystify and make less remote the workings of Parliament for the wider public and, in particular, our own constituents and to let them see the broad spectrum of economic, social and financial issues that we deal with in their interests in the course of a parliamentary session.

At this stage, I wish to say a few words about our particular operations. Since this select committee was established we have, as I have already mentioned, completed the Committee Stages of the Finance Act, 1993 and of the Waiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Act, 1993.

On a point of order, in view of the fact that we are expected to respond — and this is a novel procedure — can copies of Deputy Ellis's script be made available to the Opposition spokespersons?

We will arrange for that to be done later. I would hope that in future Deputy Rabbitte will make available to us on all occasions full copies of the scripts he uses in the House. We have discussed the main Estimates for the Department of Finance and of the Environment and all other Estimates related thereto and have reported them to the House.

As the House knows, both Bills of their nature were extremely complex and the proceedings in Committee on the Finance Bill progressed at an even pace. The debates of our proceedings will show the many excellent contributions made by Members which made for a lively and expeditious treatment of that Bill.

We also progressed in similar fashion the Waiver of Certain Tax, Interest and Penalties Bill and again the detailed teasing out of the implications of the Bill was very much welcomed by the Minister for Finance and resulted in his bringing forward amendments on Report Stage. I would add that this was the first time all sections of a Finance Bill were dealt with by the House in Committee. Our discussions on the Estimates proved similarly worth while and while I have no wish to anticipate the views of the convenors or of the select committee itself, I feel that we could usefully allocate more time in future to discussion of Estimates than we did recently. I recognise that parliamentary time constraints prevented us from allowing ourselves more time for consideration of the Estimates but I was very impressed by the extremely high level of participation by Members even to the extent that we had to curtail contributions. Certainly we felt that detailed discussions of departmental Estimates facilitates Members in that it allows them to raise in a more flexible procedural environment many aspects, and there are so many, of a Department's activities that impact on our lives both at national and local level.

Only yesterday we continued the Committee Stage of the Road Traffic Bill. We will embark early in September on the finalisation of that Bill and the Presidential Election Bill. As regards the work the committee would aim to do, we envisage developing a work programme consistent with our orders of reference. We acknowledge, of course, that our role depends in large measure on the work referred to us by the House but our orders of reference are extremely wide both in terms of remit and modus operandi. The Taoiseach intimated this morning that we may be able to deal with wider areas as mentioned by other Deputies on the Order of Business. Because the committees are still in their infancy, many issues will emerge for consideration and resolution but I am sure the House will be anxious that any deficiencies in the orders of reference the select committee perceives as likely to impede any of their operation will be addressed by the House in a continuing spirit of goodwill and co-operation. Indeed, the House has already amended the orders of reference of the committees to facilitate the attendance at proceedings of people other than members of the committees. Again this was an early, speedy and very welcome improvement to the new committee system.

As regards the resources of the committee, overall the committees are still awaiting the putting in place of proper support structures. However, I am glad to note that assistance has been provided with the permanent appointment of a clerk to each committee. This was extremely necessary as only the permanent assignment of a specific officer to a committee can ensure that the committee works satisfactorily. I wish to pay a particular tribute to the convenors on the select committee, Deputies Michael Ahern and Michael Finucane for the excellent arrangements they have been able to agree and put in place to facilitate the expeditious taking of business. We owe them our particular thanks and I am glad to have this opportunity to acknowledge their invaluable contribution to the success of our proceedings.

As the committee system is a relatively new creation, I wish to emphasise that it is only through time — I am not speaking about the distant future, but about the immediate future — that we will establish our needs. I congratulate the Government and the House on the establishment of the new committees. There is an abundance of good will on all sides of the House towards the committees and I hope that those committees which have been in operation for the past few months will continue to operate.

I wish first to acknowledge the very kind remarks by the chairman of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs. Over the years much reference was made to the need for Dáil reform. While we experienced teething problems with the new committee system, it will expedite the passage of legislation through this House.

I was very impressed with the efficiency of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs, the contributions of its 30 members and the attendance at meetings. When the Committee Stages of legislation were taken in the Dáil the debate was usually confined to the relevant Minister and the spokespersons for the Opposition parties and occasionally Deputies who had a specific interest in the legislation got an opportunity to contribute to the debate. The committee system is a more effective mechanism for dealing with Committee Stage of Bills. I have been heartened by the contributions to the debates on legislation by all members of the select committee. It was heartening to hear members of the Government parties putting forward a contradictory viewpoint to what the Minister was proposing in the legislation. We had examples of that yesterday in the debate on the Road Traffic Bill, 1993.

I welcome the televising of the proceedings of the select committees. Many politicians depend on the press and television focusing in on what they say; it is their lifeline in politics. Coverage by the press and television will stimulate the effectiveness of the committee system.

In regard to the Estimates for Public Services, many Deputies were disappointed at the shortage of time allowed to discuss the Estimate for the Office of Public Works as it related to their constituencies. At the end of that debate the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Dempsey, agreed to provide more time for the debate on the Estimates for the Department of Finance in the future. I welcome that commitment.

I welcome the briefing sessions by departmental officials, a mechanism which did not exist in the past. Officials from the Departments of Finance and the Environment have briefed Deputies on the legislation before the select committee. This very effective mechanism which gives Deputies an opportunity to tease out various aspects of Bills with departmental officials has been of great benefit to us when questioning the Minister on his proposals. This mechanism has also helped to ensure the efficiency of the committee system.

In some cases there should be a longer lead-in time for bringing Bills before the select committees so that Deputies can get outside independent advice if necessary. I have found, from my experience of the Committee Stage debate on the Road Traffic Bill, that the holding of meetings on a one-day-a-week basis gives Deputies an opportunity in the meantime to consult interested parties on aspects of the legislation. If possible, there should be a longer lead-in time.

I presume the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs will discuss the allocation of the Structural Funds. Much media attention has been paid over the past few days to what we got, or did not get by way of funding. Everybody welcomes Ireland's allocation of Structural Funds which will be spent on improving many facilities and infrastructure. The Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs will do everything it can to ensure the proper use of those funds.

I thank the eight Fine Gael members of the select committee for their attendance at meetings and their enthusiasm. Members on this side of the House have benefited from their experience of the committee system; it has expanded our knowledge of the various aspects of legislation. Fine Gael supports the committee system concept, it represents positive Dáil reform. If possible, meetings of committees should be held in the Dáil or Seanad Chambers when the Houses are not sitting. While room G2 is adequate most of the time, sometimes it is inadequate when a division is called. I found the Seanad Chamber to be an ideal location for the debate on the Estimates for the Department of Finance and, perhaps, consideration could be given to using this Chamber for committee meetings when the Seanad is not sitting.

My party is not in favour of oral voting; it makes a mockery of the committee system. At one of the earlier meetings of the committee even though the number of Opposition Deputies exceeded the number of Government Deputies present and we won the oral vote we lost the overall vote. That makes a mockery of the system. I do not think oral voting should be encouraged. If the committee system is to succeed in the long term it is important for the 30 Members to make a contribution to its effectiveness. Therefore, it is important that all Members be present when a division is called. If this is not done there will be a lapse in the efficiency of the committee, something we do not want.

It is early days yet for the committee system. I very much appreciate what has been achieved to date by the select committee and compliment the Members on their contributions to the debates which have taken place. I also compliment the Chairman of the select committee who is very fair and I look forward to continuing my working relationship with Deputy Michael Ahern.

Debate adjourned.
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