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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1993

Vol. 437 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Air Companies (Amendment) Bill, 1993: Report and Final Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, line 38, after "£175,000,000." to insert "The Minister shall satisfy himself that all competition rules both domestic and of the European Union are observed by the Holding Company and all its subsidiaries.".

This topic was referred to on Committee Stage and I thought it was appropriate to put down this amendment on Report Stage. It is evident to anybody looking at the matter even half objectively that there has not been observance of the competition rules, either domestic or of the European Union, in respect of some activities of what is called in this Bill the holding company, or Aer Lingus, as it has been known up to now. I gave some examples in this respect on Committee Stage.

I find it very difficult to accept that there is such an extraordinary disparity in air fares between Ireland and Britain. It is possible to get a £59 return fare with any of the companies flying the Dublin-London routes. That fare was originally set by a privately-owned airline and it was immediately followed by Aer Lingus. A significant proportion of the people who travel on that route are happily able to avail of that fare, which has been of enormous benefit to consumers. As I demonstrated yesterday, it has led to a considerable increase in the number of passengers using the route and a substantial increase in the number of people visiting this country who would not otherwise do so. To that extent it is very welcome.

If we contrast the Dublin-London fare with the Dublin-Bristol fare — I need hardly point out that Bristol is more than 100 miles nearer to Dublin than is London — incredibly the lowest fare that can be obtained on the Dublin-Bristol route is £175 and in some cases it is substantially greater. Similarly, the fare on the Dublin-Glasgow route is many times that on the Dublin-London route, even though the distance from Dublin to Glasgow is approximately the same as that from Dublin to London. Because there is competition on the Dublin-Liverpool route the fare in that case is low. However, on other routes such as Bristol and Glasgow where there is no competition, the fares are very high. In fact, at one stage when Ryanair was flying to Glasgow but not to Edinburgh, the Aer Lingus fare to Edinburgh was on average more than double the fare to Glasgow even though the two cities are only a very short distance apart. It was perfectly evident why this was so — Aer Lingus responds to competition on the routes between Britain and Ireland. Even though its cost structure is very much higher than that of either of its present main competitors and it must inevitably lose money, it persists in doing this.

On Committee Stage the Minister gave the impression that that sort of non-commercial activity would not happen in the future. I asked him — I think quite relevantly — why if he disapproves of this activity for the future, does he approve of it at present? If this kind of activity will be wrong in the future it must be wrong now. The Bill will give the Minister greater controls in this respect. He told us today that semi-State companies would do his bidding and that was it. I again invite the Minister to consider whether something which hopefully he will forbid in the future should be allowed to happen now.

Of course, the purpose of the very low fares charged by Aer Lingus, which has a very high cost structure and which will inevitably suffer losses, is to get rid of its competitors on these routes. Aer Lingus has succeeded in getting rid of some of its competitors in the past and others left by agreement when the cartel broke down. However, it is not acceptable to the European Union or Commission that companies would operate in that way. In particular, it is not acceptable for a semi-State company to deliberately incur losses in order to try to force a private unsubsidised competitor out of the marketplace. This practice is illegal. In some countries this kind of anti-competitive activity is not just against the civil law but is a criminal offence and people can end up in jail for engaging in it. That is not the case in this country. But if some countries feel so strongly about it that they take steps to deal with it under their criminal law, then obviously there must be something very seriously wrong with it. Therefore, it seems to be entirely wrong that, after an investment of £175 million of taxpayers money, there should be any question of Aer Lingus being allowed to continue some of the dubious commercial practices in which it has engaged in the past. I have proposed the inclusion of this amendment in the Bill to make it abundantly clear that those kind of practices cannot be allowed to happen in the future.

I have referred to the Irish-British routes, and the same principle applies to flights to and from provincial airports within Ireland. The House will recall that for a number of years Aer Lingus was not prepared to provide flights from certain provincial airports, but once Ryanair started to provide flights from Knock and a number of other provincial airports suddenly Aer Lingus, which had said it was not economic to provide such flights, started to provide flights from Knock airport in direct competition with Ryanair. When Ryanair reduced its fares, which it felt it could do, Aer Lingus also reduced its fares. While Ryanair provided direct flights from provincial airports to airports in Britain, Aer Lingus, through Aer Lingus Commuter, provided flights for £10 from provincial airports to Dublin, provided the passenger was taking an Aer Lingus flight to Britain after that. The economic cost of a flight from any provincial airport in Ireland to Dublin is clearly very much more than £10 and obviously Aer Lingus's competitor could not survive on that basis — Aer Lingus could survive because the taxpayer was picking up the tab. As a result Aer Lingus's competitor had to pull out of that market. Of course, once it pulled out the Aer Lingus fares shot up.

It is worth contrasting the £10 fare charged on this add-on basis by Aer Lingus from places like Galway and Knock with its return fare of £55 from Dublin to Shannon, a route on which it says it does not make much money. Shannon is approximately the same distance from Dublin as the other provincial airports — if anything, Shannon may be marginally further from Dublin. If Aer Lingus cannot make any significant money on a £55 fare how can it claim it is doing anything other than deliberately losing large sums of money on a £10 fare for the same distance?

These practices are well known, but they have been condoned and tolerated for a long time. Like many other people who want to see a situation in air services other than one of total monopoly, I am anxious that those kind of practices should not be allowed to continue. The taxpayer should not in the future have to come to the aid of an airline which deliberately runs up losses because it is paranoid about trying to get rid of its competitors.

It is sad that this is the position. I made a similar argument in 1984-85 when we had experience of another Irish private airline, Avair, being put out of business. Happily, this airline has been very successful since outside Ireland, where, unfortunately, it was unable to survive. At that time I was very anxious to ensure that if another private Irish airline appeared on the scene it would not go the way of Avair. Ryanair has managed to survive through very difficult times because somebody associated with the main shareholders was able to carry the losses. However, I do not think that man will be available to do that should losses be incurred again in the future. Therefore, it is vital that that airline does not incur substantial losses again, which or course it is not anxious to do.

The examples I have given — I could give many other examples — make it clear that it is vital for the Minister to satisfy himself that competition rules are observed. The Minister may well reply that competition rules are part of the law, either of the land or of the European Union, and therefore we do not need to include such a rule in an Act to make it law again. The purpose of including such a rule in legislation is to draw attention to the fact that it exists and, in particular, to put an obligation on the Minister to ensure that the laws are observed. Those laws are not dreamed up just for the sake of regulation, they are for a good public policy purpose and for the benefit of the consumer. Where any predatory company, whether an airline or other business, succeeds by using its strength and its State subsidy to put competitors out of business, the inevitable outcome is that as soon as the competitors disappear, fares rocket upwards. That has happened several times; it happened every time a competitor went out of business on a particular route and the consumer was then held up to ransom. That is unacceptable and it should not have been tolerated. Over the past number of years in particular I expressed strong objection to it on a number of occasions. I have been heavily criticised by Aer Lingus for doing so and I am held up by the senior management and its staff as someone who was trying to harm the company instead of doing it good. We are told that anything Aer Lingus does, is, by definition, right and that virtually it can do no wrong.

I hope we do not return to the bad old days prior to 1986 when aviation policy in this country was largely dominated by Aer Lingus. I hope we have entered a better era than that of the 80s and I hope, by the acceptance of this amendment, the Minister will show that he is determined to ensure that fair play, both for competitors and, most importantly, for consumers, is maintained here and that the status of the State and access to taxpayers money of any one company will not be allowed to act to the detriment of the consumer.

I have disagreed with Deputy O'Malley in regard to all of his amendments so far. In his amendments — and I have examined them all — he is questioning the bona fides of Aer Lingus. He seems to be constantly sniping at Aer Lingus. None of his amendments are of a positive nature, they are all of a restrictive or questioning nature and seek to impose restrictions on Aer Lingus as though Aer Lingus alone is a player in the market place which seems to engage in dubious practices.

This seems to be an unnecessary amendment. As Deputy O'Malley will be aware, we are party to the Treaty of Rome and the Maastricht Treaty and we are bound by whatever laws emanate in relation to competition from the European Union and we must enshrine them in our domestic law. Indeed, if this superfluous amendment was to be worded in a proper competition style, in addition to the words "The Minister shall satisfy himself that all competition rules both domestic and of the European Union are observed by the holding company and all its subsidiaries", it should have included the words "and by its competitors."

Deputy O'Malley seems to be expressing a rather jaundiced view of Aer Lingus in all his amendments and in the context of what we are seeking to do here today they are not very helpful. The purpose of this Bill is to increase the competitiveness of Aer Lingus and to streamline it in order to ensure that any failings in the structure and representation of the boards are eliminated. In regard to the management there have been certain failings on its part in looking towards the future, in planning ahead and certain decisions that were taken were not in the best interests of the future of Aer Lingus. However, that is no reason to suggest that in some way Aer Lingus is a questionable operation.

In the past competitors of Aer Lingus whether of a State or private nature, have been bankrolled by various funding. The nature of the market place is that competitors must determine their own strengths. The same can be said in a corporate capacity and whether one is talking about the private or the State sector the tendency has been to go towards monopoly. That takes place in the private and the public sector. Essentially, the European Union is saying that we cannot have monopolies, whether they are of a State or private nature. We are abiding by that and we have a favourable record of being good Europeans.

This amendment is unnecessary. It very much questions the integrity of Aer Lingus and suggests that the Minister should be more concerned with ensuring that Aer Lingus is kept on a firm rein in relation to competition rather than ensuring that there is transparency and accountability. I would like to see decisions being taken that are in the best interests of Aer Lingus. This amendment does nothing to improve the position in the provisions that it seeks to amend.

(Limerick-East): When we examine the problem of air fares, we should set it in the context of what is happening internationally. It is beyond question that internationally there is more airline capacity than there are passengers willing to pay the economic fare to travel the routes. There was a huge increase in air travel in the 80s and the capacity of airline companies was increased to match that. Deregulation was introduced in the United States, the first phase of which involved new companies being set up to compete with the traditional companies and additional capacity was also provided. Then the Gulf War broke out and resulted in a downturn in aviation travel and internationally there was an enormous over-capacity. That was evident here when Aer Lingus purchased two modern aircraft to fly the Los Angeles route. A change in policy took place and despite the fact that the company was paying $750,000 per month in leasing charges, the aircraft were left on the runway at Dublin Airport because neither Aer Lingus nor any other company had any use for them.

We have all seen photographs of areas in the outback of the United States which had airstrips in deserts lined with aircraft surplus to need. Attempts are made by various airlines, when the high season is finished here and tourism is finished in Europe to lease their aircraft in the southern hemisphere to coincide with the high season there. Air companies have responded, as any company will respond, by slashing fares and becoming highly competitive. Internationally they have become involved in a low cost fare war. It is the seats at the front of the aircraft that pay for the aircraft and if sufficient business seats are not sold, aircraft will not fly competitively.

That is the background against which we are examining all these things. While the Aer Lingus record has been very bad over the past four or five years — and I have been as critical as anybody else of Aer Lingus — it is important to set it within the context of international aviation. The freedom of the skies, lauded so much in the early stages of Ronald Reagan's presidency, has ended up with the airlines of the US incurring combined losses in excess of $4 billion in the last four or five years. There is also gross over capacity there. I saw figures recently of, I think, 22 airline companies which closed down last year in the United States and another 26 which set up. This is happening in Europe as well. It is understandable, when the business is so competitive, that fares will be slashed on competitive routes, because everybody is vying for the market. If a carrier has a monopoly on a particular route, they will charge the economic fare, or a little more — whatever the market will hold.

On the Dublin/London route what Aer Lingus tried to do was unconscionable. Not alone did they sell everything below cost but wrecked their own company in the process. They did provide a very good service and very cheap fares for a long time, together with their competitors, Ryanair, British Midland and some others who had been plying the route at an earlier date.

It is not merely competition between airline companies that is the cause of the problems. If one looks at the B & I Line, one discovers a huge transfer of business from the ferries to Dublin Airport when air fares went below a certain point. Traffic was increasing at the airport but simultaneously reducing on the ferries. Overall more passengers were brought into the country.

Deputy O'Malley is right that the fares charged by Aer Lingus from the regional airports into Dublin are high; for example, £55 from Shannon. Iarnroíd Éireann intend running trains from Cork to Dublin in two and a quarter hours from May next when they obtain their new locomotives. If they maintain their fares they will be providing a service from the centre of Cork city to the centre of Dublin in a shorter time than it would be possible to fly the same route. That competition will have an effect on Aer Lingus charges on that route.

I have great sympathy with Deputy O'Malley's amendment. I would support it because of the way in which Aer Lingus behaved in the past and because of the fears expressed by competitors that, unless their activities are absolutely transparent, they will behave in the same manner in the future.

Deputy Costello questioned the drafting of the amendment, contending that it should apply to competitors as well. We have to remember the circumstances in which we are debating this Bill. Committee Stage finished at 7 o'clock. This is a new amendment which Deputy O'Malley had to submit between 7 and 7.30 p.m. It was not subject to great scrutiny. The intention is quite clear. If the Minister favours the principle it is easy to amend it to make it technically compatible with the Bill and take into account Deputy Costello's concerns.

To say that the principle of the amendment is already enshrined in domestic legislation and in the Treaty of Rome does not fully meet the point. That is true, but the amendment places a statutory onus on the Minister to satisfy himself that all competition rules, both domestic and European, are observed. That is totally different from the status quo. It would be up to an aggrieved individual or company to process the case, either in terms of domestic or European law, to vindicate the position. This amendment actually places an onus on the Minister to vindicate the position on behalf of the travelling public in the first instance and, in the second, on behalf of competitors. I consider it to be a good amendment. The Minister is taking quite a number of powers to ensure the transparency of the company, by way of reporting systems, requesting a statement of accounts, ensuring there is an amendment to the memorandum and articles of association of the company.

The provision of this amendment would require the Minister to satisfy himself that all competition rules, both domestic and of the European Union, are observed both by the company and its subsidiaries. It is totally in line with the way the Minister is going in the Bill. I support the provisions in respect of Aer Lingus, but it is unjustified to apply the same criteria to Aer Rianta. If the Minister is really interested in ensuring that he and his successors have authority to ensure the transparency of Aer Lingus and its subsidiaries, he needs to enshrine in the Bill an amendment along these lines. If the Minister incorporates this in the Bill, the possibility of the Commission attaching more onerous conditions to the £175 million equity will lessen because they will see that he is enshrining in domestic legislation a provision whereby there is an onus on the Minister of the day to satisfy himself that the primary conditions of domestic law and of the Treaty of Rome are complied with.

I would certainly support this amendment. I congratulate Deputy O'Malley on having produced it so quickly, taking into account that Report Stage followed so soon after the conclusion of Committee Stage and the fact that the primary business of the House today was the statements on the Joint Declaration on Northern Ireland. Against that background it is a very fine amendment. I would ask the Minister to consider it very carefully. I think it would be helpful to his case in Brussels. Certainly it would strengthen his ability to ensure the transparency of the holding company and of subsidiary companies.

The Aer Lingus companies will have commercial freedom and a commercial mandate. The European Commission has a regulatory role and aggrieved competitors can seek redress should there be any predatory pricing on the part of Aer Lingus. I would suggest that that will not be the case.

I have outlined on a number of occasions that what is important here is the yield rather than the market share exclusively. What we have to ensure is that the yield is right. There is no point in having a larger market share and not making money. What one seeks to do is maintain one's market share and expand it if one can but the important bottom line is one's yield. It is essential to make money on one's routes in order to survive commercially.

Since the new management took over, if one looks at the Dublin/London route, for example, one finds they have been increasing their yields. It was Aer Lingus who moved up prices a little in order to improve their yield. This was not followed up in the case of Ryanair or British Midland. The average Aer Lingus yields on the Dublin/London routes are much higher than those of Ryanair or British Midland. The suggestion that Aer Lingus is involved in a cut price operation for the purposes of being anti-competitive or predatory does not stand up.

(Limerick East): What about the average margins?

Under EU rules, one can match fares on marginal cost basis. That possibility is there. If the Deputy can tell me of any airline that does not operate some routes on a marginal cost basis, I shall be glad to hear it.

Marginal cost is all right, but what we are dealing with here are deliberate large losses.

I am not here to go over old ground or examine the fares policy in the past. Anybody looking at the overall position will realise that the fares policy was such that there were losses on practically all routes, the major problem being that the cost base of the company was so high. Their fares were not much different from those of their competitors but the costs incurred by the company meant that the yield was non-existent on those routes. The issue is being addressed. You cannot take as much as £50 million costs annually out of a company and say that by continuing with a slightly different fares policy that in some way the old habits will remain. If the cost base is correct then the yields will be such that you will be in a far more competitive position. Everybody in Ireland, including Aer Lingus, is subject to EC competition rules. These rules are in the EC Treaty and are also enshrined in domestic legislation in the Competition Act. While I understand the reason the amendment has been tabled and the discussion which has taken place, it would be superfluous to insert this amendment, given the legislative arrangements already existing in domestic law as well as the EC Treaty requirements as outlined on Committee Stage. On that basis I cannot accept the Deputy's amendment.

The fares policy of Aer Lingus in the future would be to improve yields rather than as in the past have an obsession exclusively in terms of market share which meant there were losses on all routes due to the cost base in the company. That matter has now been addressed and even this year yields have improved. Because of the changed fares policy on the London route those yields will further improve, due to the cost base reductions which have been agreed and negotiated in the company recently.

I am very disappointed that the Minister has refused to accept this amendment, even though he does not appear to disagree with it with any degree of enthusiasm. He has accepted no amendment put down by the Opposition on this Bill, even though many of the amendments are self evidently right and self evidently necessary. It contrasts very much with the attitude of, for example, the Minister for Justice upon whom the Holy Ghost has descended of late.

Her Bill was too loose, she had no choice but to——

(Limerick-East): Only a big Holy Ghost today would have kept the Tánaiste out of the picture.

Obviously, the Holy Ghost has not reached Upper Kildare Street yet. If he gets a nice predatory fare from a State owned airline he may very well make it. The reply the Minister gave was the one I forecast. I know something about both domestic competition law and European Union competition law. The great drawback in regard to both is that it is terribly difficult, long winded and expensive to enforce your rights under either. It can take several years and it costs a huge sum of money.

One of the criticisms made in this House in 1991, when I introduced the Bill which subsequently became the Competition Act, 1991, was that it was self enforcing and was not enforced by the Minister. I acknowledged at the time that there was a problem in making it self enforcing because individuals and small companies would find it difficult to take on some big companies. In particular they would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to take on any company owned by the State which could fall back on the taxpayer. I could not do anything about it at the time because we could not have afforded the enforcement mechanism that would have been needed generally under the Competition Act to cover every sphere of commercial activity. This side of the House strongly urged that the Act be enforced not by individual people and companies who were aggrieved and damaged and suffered loss but by the Minister. I could not do it for that reason.

I suggest to the Minister that he should do it here under this Bill because he is being asked to do it only in respect of one narrow field. There are only three companies trading in Ireland to the public at large at retail level: Aer Lingus, British Midland and Ryanair. There are small companies from whom one can hire planes but I would not call that retail level to the consumer. Therefore, he does not need a big staff to do this. In fact, one of his existing staff can do it in their spare time. I would urge him very strongly to do it.

I have to confess that one of the weaknesses of the Competition Act, 1991, is the very point made to me in the House that because it is self enforcing and not enforced by the Minister, it is not used very much and, therefore, it is not nearly as strong or as powerful as it should be. I have to acknowledge that that is right. I could not build up an inspectorate of dozens of people because there were too many things to watch. Here the Minister is being asked to watch one narrow segment of the market in which there are only three players, all of whom have to publish their fares, so it is easy to do it. The Minister would be most unwise if he does not accept this amendment.

It is very difficult, even for a company like Ryanair, to take enforcement proceedings either at Irish or European level under the Competition Act or under the Treaty of Rome because the cost and the delay combined for such a company is quite serious. If it takes two years to get such a case heard the damage that could be done to them in the meantime is enormous. They simply could not withstand the power and weight of somebody like Aer Lingus. The Minister should take this on himself and my amendment allows him the opportunity to do so. I would ask him to reconsider it and to satisfy himself that the rules are being observed. He speaks with great confidence that the rules will be observed. He could only speak with confidence about the future. If only he could speak with confidence about the present and the recent past, but he cannot because the laws of this country and of the European Union are being flagrantly broken by Aer Lingus. I do not think they even bother to deny it any longer. Everybody knows they are breaking them and they have been doing so for the past number of years. As I pointed out earlier, the Irish competitor was only able to remain in business because it had somebody with deep pockets to whom it could turn.

And it had powerful political friends.

Now it does not have anybody with deep pockets to whom it can turn. If the same practices continue we will end up with one airline in this country with consequent detrimental effects.

What about the new company that has come forward in the past couple of weeks? The market has been more competitive in the last few weeks.

That is not an Irish company.

It is an Irish company; it has an Irish franchise.

It is not Irish owned. Deputy Costello said he thought I doubted the bona fides of Aer Lingus. I do. He need not be in any doubt about it. I certainly do. While he was speaking I was looking at the submission from the 54 chambers of commerce in Ireland to the European Union on this very point. I recommend it to Deputy Costello and others who think everything is rosy and that normal laws and so on are observed to see what is going on. The 54 chambers of commerce in Ireland represent thousands of firms, both large and small.

Deputy Costello and others think all is rosy and that the normal laws are observed, but the 54 chambers of commerce in Ireland, representing thousands of firms, large and small, are concerned at what is going on. The very phrase that Deputy Costello used is echoed in their submission which states: "We further doubt the bona fides of Aer Lingus".

It seems that the Minister has made the case for my amendment. I think he should accept it. It is very easy to enforce and costs nothing to implement. It is in one of the most sensitive areas of all, but it is a very narrow field in which there are only three companies involved. It will transform the position of Irish aviation. It is very necessary, at least until such time as we are able to change the enforcement procedures of both domestic and European Union competition law. Some form of fast track enforcement will have to be introduced both at European and Irish level, otherwise the law which is perfectly adequate and admirable is unenforceable.

I invite the Minister to avail of the opportunity this amendment gives him to bring in a fast track enforcement procedure in respect of one narrow field of commercial activity, civil aviation. There are only three players — in fact there is a fourth now——

There is a fifth — Premair. It is a very competitive field.

That is the way we like to see it and I wish that all the Deputy's friends would like it to be genuinely competitive.

We need a level playing field.

Competitive on the basis of a level playing field, not competitive in the way it allegedly was in recent times.

What about British Midland?

I invite the Minister to reconsider this amendment in view of the fact that it is costless and quite simple to implement.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 37; Níl, 63.

  • Ahearn, Theresa.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cox, Pat.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Sheehan, P. J.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Matt.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hilliard, Colm M.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Hughes, Séamus.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McDaid, James.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulvihill, John.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Eamon.
  • Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies O'Donnell and E. Kenny; Níl, Deputies Gallagher(Donegal South-West) and Gallagher (Laoighis-Offaly).
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, between lines 38 and 39, to insert the following:

"(2) Monies from this subscription shall not be expended in any subsidiary of the Holding Company unless separate accounts are kept and published for that subsidiary showing that it operates independently of all other subsidiaries.".

There is nothing in that amendment which does not reflect what the Minister has said in the course of the debates on Second and Committee Stages. Because there is nothing which conflicts with what the Minister has said, I hope he will be in a position to accept it. Otherwise, it is a bit futile that all these amendments, which have been strongly argued, have been put down only to be rejected out of hand. This amendment in particular does not conflict with the Minister's statements and intentions under this legislation. The Minister told us that separate accounts would have to be kept for each subsidiary and he has made provision for that in section 14. That is a great advance because in the past the Minister was not able to get separate accounts from the various subsidiaries and some of them, such as Aer Lingus Holidays, got themselves into serious difficulty. If the Minister receives separate accounts no doubt they will be published for people to analyse. Not alone is there no transparency as between the various subsidiaries at present but it is obvious from the limited information available that there is cross subsidisation.

I gave a number of examples of such cross subsidisation, and one other example is that of TEAM Aer Lingus which was set up two or three years ago. That company had substantial assets and a workforce of between 600 and 700. We were told it was doing well and that appeared to be the case for the first year or two. As Minister for Industry and Commerce, I was invited to visit the plant and did so in July 1992. I spent several hours there and was very impressed by its operations. I asked various questions and was told the company was profitable, successful and could look forward to further expansion and profits. At the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993 it became evident that Aer Lingus was in serious difficulties, but many people assumed it was just the airline until it was discovered that many of the subsidiaries, including the ancillaries, were also in serious difficulties. One of the subsidiaries in serious difficulties was TEAM Aer Lingus which was losing a great deal of money and had to let go approximately 200 of its workforce.

It then became evident that something I had been told one year earlier, which I did not believe because I was assured by the company there was no truth in it, was in fact correct. TEAM Aer Lingus was charging the airline company approximately double the going rate for the work concerned and slightly more than double that which it was charging customers not connected with Aer Lingus. That was outrageous and it dragged down the airline. Also, it deceived the public and the shareholder, but it seemed to be par for the course and nobody appeared to be upset about it.

That is another example of the cross subsidisation endemic in the group. If any practice, good or bad, is endemic in a group it is difficult to stamp it out quickly unless the shareholder, in this case the Minister for Finance, intervenes dramatically and does so with the support of the law. My amendment would provide the Minister with that opportunity.

The amendment in no way conflicts with anything the Minister stated because he assured the House that separate accounts will be kept, that they will be published, that each subsidiary will operate independently and that there will not be any cross subsidisation in the future. However, it is necessary to provide for that in law because I am sure it is the Minister's intention that there will not be any cross subsidisation in the future and that all malpractices will cease, but unless he has the support of the law I doubt he will be successful. This is an admirable opportunity for him to arm himself for the battle I fear is ahead in that regard. I urge him, therefore, to accept this amendment which is on all fours with the sentiments he expressed during the debate on this Bill.

I agree that will be the case, but the assumption behind the proposed subsection is that the £175 million will go towards the subsidiaries or be used to improve trading performance. That will not be the case. The proposed equity investment will be made to the holding company only, the Aer Lingus Group, and it will be used to reduce the debt and restore the company's balance sheet to a healthy position. It will not be used in any of the subsidiaries. The Deputy's amendment is based on the premise that the moneys will be used in the subsidiaries for unnamed purposes, but that will not be the case. A total of £113 million was lost in the GPA share price issue. Even from that point of view, an equity injection would only redress the problems associated with the balance sheet of the company. The three tranches will go to the holding company. There is no question of a requirement to ensure transparency in respect of subsidiary company accounts in relation to the money because the subsidiaries will not be getting any of it. The Deputy's amendment has given me the opportunity to clarify the matter, but there is no merit in it. If money was to be put directly into some of the subsidiaries there would be some merit in the amendment. That will not be the case and, therefore, I cannot accept the amendment.

It is noteworthy that the Minister did not disagree with the principle of what I said. He could not because he had already committed himself to that principle. However, he will not accept the amendment on the spurious ground that the money will not be put into the subsidiaries. In my amendment I did not state that the money will be put into the subsidiaries. My amendment states that moneys from the subscription shall not be expended in any subsidiary. I did not refer to the investment of the money, but to its expenditure. There may be up to 20 subsidiaries in Aer Lingus and if an investment is made in such a holding company one does not give £X million to one subsidiary, £Y million to another and a few hundred thousand pounds to the smaller subsidiaries. That is a matter for the company. The shareholder, in this case the Minister for Finance simply writes three cheques payable to the holding company and it is up to that company to distribute the money among its subsidiaries if it so wishes.

Some of the subsidiaries may have survived all the vicissitudes of the past year or two and may not require any money. I am not talking here about the investment of money by the Minister in subsidiaries but rather about the expenditure of money in subsidiaries——

That money will not go towards expenditure in any subsidiary.

That is remarkable. As Aer Lingus Express has not yet been formed it has no assets. If it is formed — the Minister has said that he may not agree to this; the European Commission may not agree either — what will it use to buy aeroplanes? A former Member of this House once said to me when, in 1974, I recommended to him that he should buy cattle because they were very cheap: "What am I going to pay for them with — lollypops?"

He has been outstanding in the agricultural field since.

What are we going to use here? Lollypops?

They are more expensive than in 1974.

The argument the Minister is making is spurious and he knows this.

It is not.

I have often listened to Ministers make spurious and ridiculous arguments but at the end of the day one had to give them the benefit of the doubt because they had been told to do the best they could with this argument. Often, they did not realise that it was spurious. The Minister knows perfectly well that what he has said is ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous.

In the amendment I do not refer to investment in subsidiaries but rather to the expenditure of money in subsidiaries. The holding company is not going to fly planes or own and run hotels; rather it will employ two or three people to sit at a desk to keep the accounts. As is the case in other groups, all the work and the commercial activity of the group will be carried out by all its operating and trading subsidiaries. Therefore any money spent by the group will be spent by the subsidiaries.

(Limerick East): What about the redundancy package for which £50 million has been earmarked?

Deputy Noonan has helpfully reminded me about the subsidiaries which will have to meet redundancy payments——

I have never seen such co-operation in Limerick East.

——such as TEAM Aer Lingus or Aer Lingus plc. Who is going to make these payments? A sum of £50 million of the total of £175 million will be set aside for this purpose. How will TEAM Aer Lingus be able to pay out £10 million in redundancy payments if it is not to receive any funds? I do not think the cross-subsidisation will be extended to such an extent that Copthorne Hotels will be able to meet the redundancy payments in the airline or TEAM Aer Lingus from petty cash. The point the Minister made is ridiculous and he knows it.

It is not ridiculous.

He should accept this amendment because he has no argument against it.

He agrees with it fully and has said everything that is contained in it.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 4, line 45, to delete "exceed" and substitute "be less than".

We have heard about the poacher who turns gamekeeper but it is not often that the gamekeeper turns poacher. He has been able to wag the tail of the dog.

Which am I better at?

The Deputy is equally good at both. This amendment relates to the 5 per cent shareholding which the unions have negotiated in the current arrangements with Aer Lingus. We are seeking a guarantee that this shareholding will not fall below 5 per cent. It is quite possible, given the way the company has been structured, that if the Government was to increase its shareholding or if a private shareholder was to invest in the companies concerned, the shareholding held by the workers could fall below 5 per cent. As I said, we are seeking to ensure that it will not fall below this figure.

This shareholding was negotiated painstakingly by the unions concerned and agreed to, along with many other painful changes in work practices, numbers and so on. We should take steps to guarantee that this share will be maintained. It was the minimum that the workers in the company were prepared to accept in lieu of the redundancies and restrictions sought. It is therefore incumbent on this House when dealing with this issue to guarantee that this shareholding will be maintained. Therefore I ask the Minister to accept the amendment.

Section 5 is an enabling provision to allow for the employee shareholding as agreed between the Government, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the affiliated unions representing the employees in Aer Lingus. The agreement provided for a maximum of 5 per cent of the shares in issue to be held by employees. As I stated, following a meeting between the Cabinet sub-committee on aviation matters and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Government announced that the question of participation by the employees in the future success of the company should be dealt with as a tangible form of recognition of the additional contribution being asked of the workforce.

The employees of Aer Lingus have contributed greatly in the past in building up the airline and the Government is aware that a stronger commitment than ever before will be required from all the staff in Aer Lingus throughout the organisation. Therefore, on 17 November, agreement was reached between the Government, which was represented by myself and the Minister for Finance, and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the affiliated unions representing the employees in Aer Lingus, on an imaginative arrangement for participation by employees in the company.

Under this agreement 10 per cent of the profits before tax will be allocated to the employees so that the employees can receive the equivalent of 10 per cent of the issued share capital of the company, split 50-50 between shares and cash. The Government then agreed to issue 5 per cent of the shares of the company in issue to the employees up front on a partly paid up basis in return for a nominal payment. The balance of the payment for the shares will be paid out of the annual distribution of profits. At the discretion of the employees some or all of the 5 per cent cash payment may be used to accelerate the payment of the balance of the share price. Distribution will cease when the threshold of 10 per cent of the issued share capital has been reached. This Bill gives effect to this agreement by providing for the employee profit-sharing scheme.

As I said, 5 per cent of the shares have been allocated up front on a partly paid up basis, the balance to be paid out of the distribution of profits. There is no question of a reduction until such time as they are paid. The position is as I have outlined and it was agreed in detail at those negotiations on 17 November. The Bill, as drafted, is in line with the agreement.

On the basis of what the Minister says, it seems the point I sought to address in my amendment is adequately covered. I know the Government Deputies here are anxious to move on to amendment No. 6 and amendment No. 9a, so I do not propose to press my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 not moved.

We come to amendment No. 6. Amendments Nos. 7 and 9a are related and amendments Nos. 8 and 9 are alternatives to amendment No. 7. It is proposed to take amendments Nos. 6, 7, 8, 9 and 9a together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 5, to delete lines 34 to 48, and in page 6, to delete lines 1 to 3 and substitute the following:

"(3) The terms of section 23 (as amended by the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, 1988), of the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, 1977, shall continue to apply to each of the existing companies, and shall apply to any subsidiary company established under the terms of this Act.

(4) Every person who immediately before the commencement of this Act was a director of the existing companies by virtue of the Act of 1977 and to whom section 23 (2) of that Act applies shall, notwithstanding anything contained in the Companies Act, continue to serve for the period of time for which he or she was elected.".

Essentially what we are seeking is to guarantee that those who are already worker directors will continue to act as such until the term of office for which they are elected expires. We are also seeking to ensure that worker directors may be elected to subsidiary companies of the holding company. The current Bill seeks to provide for worker directors to the main holding company but there is no provision for directors to be elected to the subsidiary companies.

I would particularly refer to the new company which has yet to be established, the Aer Lingus company which will be going to London primarily. I urge the Minister to accept the amendment. A number of Government Deputies are also anxious that a similar kind of amendment be accepted by the Minister. I urge him to give serious consideration to the proposal.

I appreciate what Deputy De Rossa is seeking to do in amendment No. 6. It is appropriate that we should have worker representation on the subsidiaries that will be formed. At present it is proposed that there will be worker directors of the holding company only and the existing companies, Aer Lingus plc and Aerlínte, would lose their worker representatives. We want to ensure a greater role for the employees in the activities of the company. Although it might not be appropriate to have full worker participation in every subsidiary — there could be a large number of subsidiaries — the principle should stand for all the subsidiaries.

The Minister's amendment does not go far enough. What he is talking about is having a representative of employees' interests. I would have thought that every member appointed to a board would represent the interests of the employees. It is quite a wide-ranging phraseology that is used here. The least the Minister could do is ensure that there would be one statutory representative of employees' interests on every subsidiary to which the amendment applies and also on subsidiary companies that may be established by the Minister in due course. Certainly it is intended that one very substantial subsidiary would be established, namely Aer Lingus Express, which will ply the London-Dublin route. It would be unreasonable not to allow worker representation on the board of a major subsidiary which probably holds much of the future of Aer Lingus in its hands. I ask the Minister to give reasonable representation of employees' interests in terms of the existing companies and of future subsidiaries.

This is an historic day in many ways. The peace agreement was reached in London. There was agreement on the GATT negotiations and, as we come to 10.30 this evening, there is agreement on the Air Companies (Amendment) Bill, putting in place the amended Cahill strategy which it is hoped will ensure the future of Aer Lingus and the staff there. I compliment the Minister on what he has achieved to date in conjuction with the staff and management of Aer Lingus.

Given the pain the staff have suffered, the changes in work practices etc. that they have agreed to, I am a bit disappointed that the Bill is defective. I am a firm believer in the concept of industrial democracy and its development. This Bill sets up the new structures and provides for a holding company with worker representation. Last night and today we, as Labour Party people, have done everything we can to get an accommodation. The amendment proposed by the Minister relates to section 9 (1) (a). It refers to the existing companies. It does not refer to subsidiaries that may be established in the future to cater for the Dublin-London express route. The Bill provides for representation of the workforce in relation to the existing two subsidiaries, but such representation must apply also in respect of the third subsidiary referred to in the Cahill plan.

How does the Minister propose to provide for such representation? Amendment 9 (a) states, that the directors shall include a representative of the employee interests. My preferred option would be a mechanism similar to that in CIE which provides that one of two worker directors be transferred to new subsidiary companies. How does the Minister propose to provide for the representative of the employee interests? Accepting that the Minister has the power to nominate a director, would such appointment take place following consultation with, for example, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, so that a mechanism could be put in place to ensure that the nominated representative had the support of the workforce? Another Government may adopt a different approach and nominate a political representative who may not represent the employee interests. We need a commitment from the Minister that if he is not prepared to accept the amendments, he will copperfasten and tighten up this matter. Will he indicate how he would address the problem associated with the Dublin-London express route?

We have heard glib comments from Deputies who could be termed spokespersons for British Midland who made a case for that company. The Aer Lingus holding company is effectively being asked to fight with one hand tied behind its back. Aer Lingus Express and other major air transport companies which may be established under the new holding company should play a vigorous role in developing a profitable base and future for Aer Lingus. As my colleagues have eloquently expressed, we feel that since the workforce has already a commitment in regard to 10 per cent of the profits and 5 per cent equity, those new companies should have a representative on the board of the holding company.

I agree with what my colleagues have said in relation to section 9 (1) (a). I would prefer if the Minister's proposed amendment on employee interests included paragraph (b). Will he indicate in what way the future development of the core air transport business could safeguard the interests of the employees as workers and shareholders in what will hopefully be a much revived and strengthened airline? This House must take primary responsibility for that airline because of its impact on our economy, particularly the north Dublin economy. The Government should make Aer Lingus and not a Birmingham airline its primary responsibility.

Since the announcement of the Cahill plan and during the debate on Aer Lingus we were told that the restructuring plan was a package. Workers tried to negotiate their side of the deal, but the point was always stressed that the plan was a package and must be accepted as such. That package comprised three elements: the sacrifices made by the workers in respect of the reduction in the cost base, the injection of equity and the development of new business and routes. We must accept that package and allow Aer Lingus develop new routes and new business and expand so that its future will be secure.

Last night I referred to the need to put as much pressure as possible on the European Commission in order that restrictions would not be placed on the injection of equity. It is essential that Aer Lingus Express is established in the near future and given as much freedom as possible. The workers have made sacrifices during the past year and it is essential that they have representation on the board of the holding company. Because the proposed new company is not covered under the Bill, it is not possible to make allowance for worker representation in that regard. I accept the Minister has gone some way towards meeting our request to cover that position but his proposed amendment has not gone far enough. I appeal to him to go a little further and include the provisions in subsections (1) (a) and (1) (b). We all want Aer Lingus to survive in the future.

(Limerick East): There is very little time left and I do not intend to take up the last few minutes of the debate. I hope the Aer Lingus rescue plan is a resounding success. Its purpose is not to create some type of national monument or primarily to sustain the maximum number of good jobs, though that is important. The purpose of a vital national air company is for it to provide a good service for the Irish people and the business community. The ordinary travelling community and the tourist community should have a good service. I hope there is not a return to the position already referred to, that Aer Lingus will operate on the basis of wiping out competition on particular routes. Some of the comments made that Deputy O'Malley and I had at heart the interests of British Midland and Ryanair were unfair. We have at heart the interest of the consumer. The consumer will get scalded unless there is competition. We do not want a position to develop where there is no competition on the routes. Competition is the best protection for the consumer.

Regarding representation on boards, I am unhappy about the Minister's provisions in relation to section 9. I tabled a number of amendments in relation to this matter. People involved in aviation companies should know something about aviation. The traditional method of appointing State boards here, where the first consideration was party affiliation, is not the best way to run a commercial State body or an airline company. If there are 12 members on the board of the holding company, including four worker directors, I am sure four of its members will have experience of the aviation industry. I tabled an amendment which proposed that two of the eight remaining directors should also have aviation experience. That is reasonable. It is not enough that they may be worthy business people and have experience in other areas, some consideration must be given to the requirement of aviation experience.

Under section 9 the Minister is responsible for the appointment of all members of subsidiary boards. Up until now the board of the parent company appointed members to the boards of its subsidiaries. This provision brings the Minister's influence to a level of company activity which poses a danger to the commercial viability of the company. I presume the hotel group of the company would appoint people interested in the hotel business. Its primary concern would be the commercial operation of that subsidiary. It is now proposed that the ministerial appointment system will operate throughout the subsidiaries and that the members of all the boards will be appointed by the Minister. If the Minister does not make the appointments, he can notify the chairman by giving him permission in writing to make such appointments. The chairman will be the Minister's political appointment on the board. I am concerned about this matter and I am sorry there was not more time to discuss it.

On a point of order, would it be possible to give the Minister one minute to respond to the points made on these sections? He may have some views for us in view of the very strong case made by his colleagues.

I would very much like to facilitate the Deputy but the Chair is bound by an order of the House.

The Minister was on his feet.

On a point of order, we have the honour of having with us tonight five of the "Santry Six". It is possible to bring the cameras around so that the viewers down the country who are interested in this matter will see the Deputies?

It shows the interest we have in Aer Lingus and its staff.

As it is now 10.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the amendment set down by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and not disposed of is hereby made to the Bill; that Fourth Stage is hereby completed and that the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put and declared carried.
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