It is proposed to take Nos. 11, 12, 2 and 8, No. 8 to be taken immediately after Question Time. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: (1) The proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of No. 11 if not previously concluded shall be brought to a conclusion at 2.15 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice; (2) the debate on No. 8 shall not exceed one hour and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the speech of each Member called on shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; and (ii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to reply not less than five minutes before the debate is due to conclude; (3) Business shall not be interrupted until the conclusion of the proceedings on No. 8; (4) the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and shall adjourn not later than 4 p.m. to take statements on the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and the following arrangements shall apply; (i) the statement of each Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes; and (ii) a Minister shall be called upon not later than 3.40 p.m. to make a concluding statement not exceeding 20 minutes.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal to deal with No. 11 satisfactory and agreed?
As my party informed your office, we will be moving a motion under Standing Order 102 to have this Bill recommitted because it does not apply retrospectively and will not apply to cases in the pipeline. That is unsatisfactory. The 1987 Act applied retrospectively and this legislation should do likewise. A person should not be allowed claim the political offence exception for murderous acts.
The Deputy's comments would be more appropriate when we come to deal with the matter, which will be shortly.
I am opposing the taking of Report Stage now.
May I take it that the proposals to deal with No. 11 are agreed?
They are not agreed.
Are the proposals for dealing with No. 8 satisfactory and agreed?
Will the Government agree to two hours for this debate? The Fine Gael Party has tabled a motion seeking a value for money audit for the revised National Development Plan to be carried out by the Comptroller and Auditor General. We believe it is necessary in view of the persistent lack of candour and economy with the truth of ministerial statements on this matter. I would be grateful if the Government would agree to extend the time by an hour.
Perhaps that is a matter for the Whips.
There is a stony silence.
It is a matter for discussion by the Whips.
The Order should be set this morning. I propose we allow two hours for the debate.
Is that agreed?
What is the Government afraid of? It should spell out the facts.
People are more interested in the money that is going to be spent.
They are more interested in the money that is missing.
The problem is that we do not know whose money it is, whether it is the people's, the Government's or Europe's.
We are the laughing stock of Europe.
That is not what Le Monde reports.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Wexford.)
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Costello, Joe.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John
- (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East.)
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Is the proposal that business shall not be interrupted until the conclusion of the proceedings on No. 8 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the arrangements for dealing with tomorrow's sitting agreed?
I indicated on the Order of Business yesterday that tomorrow's debate should be about the National Development Plan. It does not make sense to debate the Programme for Competitiveness and Work which is largely based on the National Development Plan and the money it is claimed will be received from Europe. I propose an amendment, that the words “Programme for Competitiveness and Work” be deleted and replaced by “National Development Plan”. We should spend tomorow's time debating that issue.
The Deputy's indication of opposition is sufficient.
It is time the Government clearly indicated to the House in a formal way precisely what projects will be deleted from the programme or delayed as a result of the loss of money.
There will be other times to deal with that matter.
The National Plan was prepared on the basis of supposed openness and consultation. If it is to be revised there should be the same openness and consultation. In those circumstances I strongly support the amendment proposed by Deputy De Rossa.
It is important to put on the record that the request for the debate tomorrow came from Deputy Proinsias De Rossa. It is a little naive to come in at the last moment to try to change the debate. The Government is responding to a reasonable request. I would point out to Deputy Bruton that the Government has no intention of carrying out very intricate technical negotiations in public, through the media. It is a matter for the Government and the Commission and when we have discussed the matter we will come back and inform the House exactly where we stand.
That is what happened the last time.
Let us have no disorder about this matter.
Deputy J. Bruton rose.
Sorry, Deputy Bruton, I am on my feet.
On a point of order, as proposer of the amendment am I not entitled to reply?
I listened to the Deputy's amendment and it is not in order.
Surely the Taoiseach sees the sense in having a debate on the National Development Plan in advance of the debate on the Programme for Competitiveness and Work.
Deputy De Rossa, please desist.
Surely that is logical.
The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House.
The Taoiseach does not understand logic.
You are trigger happy this morning.
The amendment proposed by Deputy De Rossa is negative and he may not take from the Taoiseach's prerogative in dealing with business.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Bree, Declan.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John. (Wexford).
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Collins, Gerard.
- Costello, Joe.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Foley, Denis.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Derek.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Penrose, William.
- Power, Seán.
- Reynolds, Albert.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Upton, Pat.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Woods, Michael.
Níl
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connor, John.
- Cox, Pat.
- Foxe, Tom.!Mitchell, Gay.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harney, Mary.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Keogh, Helen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Durkan, Bernard J.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Owen, Nora.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Yates, Ivan.
Will the Taoiseach state if the Government will be proposing legislation for the part privatisation of Telecom in view of the statement by the Tánaiste on 24 May that if Fianna Fáil insists on this, it will not be in Government with the Labour Party.
The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that matter. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It concerns legislation.
It is clear that if the plan to sell part of Telecom to Cable and Wireless were to go ahead, legislation would be required.
I am aware of that but has legislation been promised?
The Tánaiste said the Government will fall if that happens.
I am sorry, Deputy. The matter will have to be dealt with in another way. Deputy Harney is offering.
The Taoiseach cannot speak.
He could talk two years ago but is silent now.
I have six quotations here from the Tánaiste——
Deputy Bruton wants to privatise it, that is his problem.
Deputy Bruton, a display of that kind is not appropriate to this House. I am calling Deputy Harney for the second time.
The Government is right to look for a private investor, it is badly needed. I sought to raise this matter another way; I asked the Taoiseach yesterday whether he was aware of the proposals to have a private investor and he said he was not. I am concerned that the Taoiseach is not on top of what is happening in the country. There is little point in the Tánaiste flying a socialist flag——
Members should have regard to what is in order.
The Taoiseach told me yesterday he was not aware of any proposals for a private investor.
That is true.
So the Taoiseach is not aware of what is happening?
Somebody should tell the Taoiseach what is going on.
I wish to put the record straight on this matter and a little quiet would be appreciated.
Is the Taoiseach in order?
I am in order to correct the record of the House. Deputy Harney rightly raised a question in a supplementary yesterday, I said the Government had no proposals before it nor was I aware of any proposal. The Deputy is correct, I was not aware of any such proposal until 9.30 last night.
The Taoiseach must have been the last person to hear it.
There is probably disappointment on the opposite side of the House that Telecom is not being privatised. However, will anyone on that side of the House deny that, to secure the future success of Telecom Éireann, there is a need to get into strategic alliances to ensure the company keeps up with world communications and technology, a sensible way to protect the vital interests of Telecom Éireann and its workforce?
What about the people on the Taoiseach's left?
This matter must not lead to argument or debate now.
It is unusual that I was made aware of these facts at the weekend and that the Taoiseach did not know about them until 9.30 last night. I find that hard to accept.
Deputy Harney should have passed them on to the Taoiseach.
That is before my Department was made aware of it. What are Deputy Harney's sources.
In view of the fact that the Taoiseach will not give an explanation——
I ask Deputy Harney to accept the bona fides of the statements I made yesterday and today.
A Cheann Comhairle, you should remind the Taoiseach that he is out of order.
I accept what the Taoiseach is saying, lest there is any misunderstanding, but I believe the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications knew about it.
That is wrong and the Deputy will retract her statement right now.
Did anybody know what was going on?
Do not attribute knowledge to me which I did not have.
The Irish Independent——
Why is Minister Cowen getting so upset about somebody telling him he knows his job?
I am calling Deputy De Rossa.
In view of the fact that the Taoiseach has offered an explanation of his position, will the Tánaiste now offer an explanation as to how he can reconcile his statement——
If there are no legitimate questions I will proceed to the Order of Business proper
The Tánaiste would stand up if he was over here.
This is making a mockery of the Order of Business.
——That he would not remain in Government with Fianna Fáil if there was privatisation of any more semi-State bodies.
The Order of Business of this House will have to be reviewed if this disorder continues. No Ceann Comhairle could cope with it.
Does the Taoiseach consider it shameful that the Government does not know what is happening in a company owned by it?
It does know.
At 9.30 last night.
I cannot allow discussions on this matter to continue.
The Deputy is aware, like everybody else, that these are primarily matters for the board. When an assessment has been made by the board of all the other companies interested in a strategic alliance with Telecom, those matters will then be referred to the Government for final decision.
I would like to ask your assistance. Last May there were reports that the Taoiseach had meetings with Lord Young, the Chairman of Cable and Wireless.
I will not allow this matter to be debated now. There are other ways and means of raising it in the House and I am sure Deputies will find them.
I am asking you a question, a Cheann Comhairle.
You are not asking a question that is in order now or relevant to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Hogan.
On a point of order, I have not completed my question.
You may not challenge the Chair in this fashion. I am dealing with a point of disorder from you, Deputy. I am calling Deputy Hogan.
Will you give me an opportunity to state my point?
I am dealing with a point of disorder from you.
I had not completed what I had to say.
I had heard sufficient from you, Deputy, to know that you were continuing the subject matter I had ruled out of order.
I am asking you a question, a Cheann Comhairle, about a parliamentary question tabled to the Taoiseach. You replied on 28 May 1993——
Deputy Gilmore may not challenge the Chair in this fashion. He knows that.
It was a parliamentary question tabled to the Taoiseach about a meeting he had with you——
I must now ask you to resume your seat.
——when you ruled that he had no responsibility to the House.
Deputy Gilmore, resume your seat or leave the House.
I want to know when did the Taoiseach tell you, a Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Gilmore will now leave the House.
If this continues a different procedure must be adopted.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
A Cheann Comhairle, the Government over there could help you.
I have got to get help——
In view of the fact that the issue in respect of Telecom Éireann has serious implications for the Programme for Government, may I ask the Taoiseach——
I am sorry, Deputy Hogan, you are out of order.
May I ask the Taoiseach?
No, Deputy, you may not. I am calling Deputy Rabbitte.
A Ceann Comhairle, this is in relation to legislation, on the Order of Business.
No, Deputy, you may not.
On the ordering of business, will the Taoiseach make Government time available today to discuss this very serious issue in view of the fact that——
I am calling Deputy Rabbitte, who I hope will be in order.
The Deputy should read page seven.
A Cheann Comhairle—
Deputy Hogan, please resume your seat. If this continues, I am leaving the Chair.
We cannot have that.
They will privatise you, a Cheann Comhairle; you will be brought in on contract.
The fact cats might buy it.
Is it is not the case that the Taoiseach initiated this sell off with Lord Young, that not only did he know about it but he initiated it a year ago?
Wrong again, Pat.
On the Order of Business, I am calling Deputy Enda Kenny who will be the last Member I will hear on this subject.
I have two questions. First, does the Minister for Equality and Law Reform propose to hold interviews with TDs and public servants on whether they should resign from golf clubs——
This is deplorable. Members know full well that is not in order.
Deputies
It has to do with legislation.
I am calling Deputy Gay Mitchell who has something to raise if it is in order.
This has to do with legislation in regard to resignations from clubs and facilities that practise discrimination.
We should await the submission of that Bill.
Probably it was drafted by a 26 handicapper who was a little frustrated. Second, is it proposed to invite our former colleague, Commissioner Pádraig Flynn, who is on a tour of European capitals vis-à-vis the creation of employment, to come to Ireland to do the same thing?
I am calling Deputy Gay Mitchell.
The Extradition (Amendment) Bill, 1994 due for consideration this afternoon has been brought forward to this morning. In view of the fact that a man was released and was not extradited earlier in the week because the relevant judge decided that section 4 of the existing Act did not extend to him, would the Taoiseach consider delaying consideration of Report Stage of this Bill until next week so that the Opposition could be afforded an opportunity to consider the High Court judgment?
We have considered the High Court judgment which was given on three grounds, one of which is affected by this Bill. Neither the Government nor this House can have any control over the type of publicity surrounding any particular allegation or charge against any person. That was one of the grounds on which the judge found that the chances of a fair trial for the person concerned were certainly in doubt. That is not an issue which can be dealt with under this Bill. Rather it deals with the other loopholes in legislation. It is important that its provisions be implemented as soon as possible.
I call on the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to make an announcement.
A Cheann Comhairle——
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputies, I will not be intimidated in this fashion. I am calling on the Minister of State.
On a point of order, I had my hand up for quite a long time.
I will hear no more.
I want to ask the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Burton——
Deputy Allen will obey the Chair.
I want to ask the Minister of State, Deputy Joan Burton, whether it was unprecedented, on the Social Welfare Bill, for her not to address this House?
Deputy Allen is clearly being disorderly.
Has she lost her voice?
I have much voice, in fact a much better one than the Deputy's
She could speak outside the House but was struck dumb yesterday on her responsibilities and brief.