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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1994

Vol. 440 No. 2

Casual Trading Bill, 1994: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The primary purpose of the Bill is to update existing legislation relating to the control and regulation of casual trading as contained in the Casual Trading Act, 1980. That Act, as the House will be aware, applies to selling goods by retail on a street, road, market square, footpath, roadside and any other place to which the public have access as of right, and any place which a local authority sets aside as a casual trading area.

It would be helpful to Deputies if, before dealing with the provisions of the new Bill, I outline some of the background considerations which led to the enactment of the existing legislation in 1980. The 1980 Act came into being following a report from the then Restrictive Practices Commission — which has been subsumed into the Competition Authority — which concluded at that time that outdoor trading was "fair trading" provided that it was subject to reasonable and, especially, effective control and made a more realistic contribution to public funds.

The primary reasons for introducing the legislation were to ensure that roadside and street traders do not have an unfair advantage over established traders who operate from retail outlets, in so far as they do not incur the associated overheads. Another factor was that trade union interests complained at that time that employment prospects for their members were being jeopardised, not merely because of the higher overheads which have to be met by shopkeepers, but also because street traders do not observe the statutory and reasonably negotiated conditions of employment of shop assistants. Additionally, there had been widespread concern about the traffic and other environmental problems created by some outdoor traders. These were some of the arguments in support of better regulation of outdoor trading which led to the enactment of the 1980 Act. The same considerations could be said to arise today.

The object of the 1980 Act, therefore, was to deal with these types of concerns by providing a more effective system of licensing subject to certain conditions, linked to designated areas, with penalties as the deterrent against offences. In this regard, the Act currently provides for a dual licensing system, one at national level involving a requirement on traders to obtain a national licence from the Department of Enterprise and Employment, and the other obtaining a permit from a local authority which has availed of its powers to designate casual trading areas. The Act gives power to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment and to the local authorities to appoint authorised officers, and to the Garda Síochána for the purpose of enforcing it. In practice, however, it is enforced by authorised officers appointed by the local authorities and the gardaí who have wide powers to ask questions and to examine books and other records. Any person who fails, refuses or neglects to comply with a requirement of an authorised officer or a garda commits an offence. In certain circumstances a garda may arrest without a warrant a person contravening the Act and seize any vehicle or goods connected with the illegal trading. Additionally, local authorities have powers to acquire market rights, some of which are in private ownership as a result of royal charters and letters patent granted centuries ago, and to extinguish such market rights on condition that they provide alternative facilities in the same vicinity as the market or fair to which the right relates and which reasonably correspond in all respects to that market or fair.

The 1980 Act also provides that certain classes of trading, which were not then considered to give rise to any problems, are exempted from regulation under the Act. These exemptions relate to the following types of selling: selling by a licensed auctioneer; a farmer or market gardener selling his own produce — livestock, vegetables, flowers, fruit or other crops; door to door selling; a person selling sweets, chocolate, confectionery, cooked foods, fruit, non-alcoholic drinks or favours from a tray, basket, trolley or other similar device at or immediately beside a place where a football match, race-meeting or any other event is taking place regardless of whether the public have to pay to attend; selling of ice cream, newspapers, periodicals, magazines or other printed matter or pious or religious objects; fishermen or members of the crew of a fishing boat selling their catch; selling in aid of a charity or for some purpose from which no private profit is made, for example, famine relief organisations, hospitals, organisations that help the poor, churches, mission societies, schools, sports clubs; and selling at a market or fair held with the authority of statute or a franchise.

In summary, the Casual Trading Act, 1980, set out to regulate casual trading by providing that, with a number of exceptions, anyone engaging in casual trading is required to have a national licence issued by the Department of Enterprise and Employment on payment of a fee, and separate permits from each local authority which has designated a casual trading areas. The cornerstone of regulation under the 1980 Act was, therefore, the wide powers given to local authorities to designate the places in their functional area which would be set aside for outdoor trading, where this type of trading could be carried on in a disciplined way in the best interest of local consumers, established traders, casual traders and all other interested bodies.

It was not then envisaged, and I am not now proposing, that central Government should decide where trading should be permitted and what detailed conditions should be attached to trading at local levels. The 1980 Act was, therefore, designed to give local authorities all the powers they could reasonably need in order to properly regulate casual trading.

During the period in which the Act has been in operation certain aspects, in particular exemptions and enforcement, have been the subject of criticism by traders, local authorities, public representatives and the courts. In response to these criticisms a major review of the Act has been undertaken by the Department of Enterprise and Employment. As part of the review all local authorities were invited to make submissions. Their views were concerned, in the main, with effecting improvements in the operation of the Act by suggesting amendments to particular provisions, rather than proposing overall policy changes. Submissions were also obtained from other Government Departments and interested bodies representing traders, established and casual.

In this regard, the exemption under the Act relating to the sale of agricultural or horticultural produce by the producer has posed particular problems for local authorities in enforcing the legislation because the burden of proof of the origin of the produce is placed on the local authorities. This is very difficult in the case of most items with the exception of fruits such as oranges, grapefruit, etc. In addition, efforts by local authorities to use their powers to acquire market rights can be defeated when people selling their own produce such as potatoes, shrubs, fish, etc., are not subject to any form of regulation.

The absence of power of appeal by a local authority against a decision of the Circuit Court in relation to the designation of a casual trading area has also presented problems for some authorities in an area that is crucial to the effective operation of the Act. Difficulties have also been experienced by local authorities in dealing with so-called "prescriptive rights" claimed by traders when the local authorities have attempted to use their powers to acquire market rights. As I have already indicated, one of the current exemptions from casual trading regulations relates to selling at a market or fair held with the authority of statute or a franchise.

The difficulty arising here from the authorities' point of view is that where they have been successful in acquiring a market right, a continuing right appears to live on through the prescriptive rights route and the local authorities have no means of establishing the validity of such rights. This has been invoked successfully by some traders and as a result the local authorities and the Garda, in some instances, have declared prosecutions under the Act on fair days to be a lost cause.

These are the major concerns raised by the local authorities. There are others of less significance which I do not think it necessary to detail here. Suffice it to say that having received my Department's evaluation based on the various submissions received and close consultation with other Departments, in particular with the Department of the Environment in view of its responsibilities for policy for local government matters, I have decided to amend the 1980 Act to address perceived weaknesses and with a view to achieving more effective regulation of casual trading. I will now set out the principal reforms I am proposing to the House for consideration under the Casual Trading Bill, 1994.

As I have already mentioned, the current system involves a dual licensing system which requires that national licences are issued by my Department and permits are issued by the local authorities. I do not consider there is any justification for the continued involvement of central Government in this function. It is a function that can readily and should properly be carried out only by the local authorities. This is fully consistent with Government policy on local government reform with regard to ensuring that local issues are settled wherever possible at local level. As I have already indicated, the 1980 Act contains a number of trading activities which are exempted from the scope of the Act. This means they are not subject to any specific regulation. This has given rise to particular difficulties, especially in the case of home-grown produce.

I consider that the exemptions from the scope of regulation should be as limited as possible and accordingly I am proposing under section 2 to limit the exemptions to just three activities, namely: (a) selling by a licensed auctioneer; (b) door-to-door selling and (c) charity sales. I am proposing that the following five exempted activities under the 1980 Act be removed: (a) the selling of agricultural and horticultural produce by the producer; (b) the selling of sweets, chocolate, etc. at public events such as sports and concerts; (c) the selling of ice cream, newspapers, etc. and pious religious objects; (d) the selling of fish by the crew which catches them; and (e) selling at a market or fair held with the authority of statute or a franchise. I want to emphasise that the removal of these exemptions will not make the activities in question unlawful, rather it will have the effect of making them subject to regulation.

The existing provisions enable the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to amend the exemptions by making regulations, in other words, without the need to introduce a Bill in the House. However, advice received from the Attorney General has indicated that this power is limited to adding to the exemptions. The removal of existing exemptions cannot be carried out under the 1980 Act by regulations and I am therefore proposing that such powers should be given to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment in order to be able to react more flexibly to any changing circumstances. In addition, local authorities will be empowered to add to such exempted classes of trading as they may consider necessary as far as their own areas are concerned.

In the case of the removal of the current exemption relating to the sale of agricultural and horticultural produce, I would point out that I am aware of the rural development dimension which such direct selling can have in terms of adding value at the local level, for example, farm produced cheese. However, I consider that the provision which I am making under the Bill enabling local authorities to add such further exemptions as local circumstances dictate will cater adequately for this concern. In other words, if a local authority has a view that relates to its specific locality or the nature of a particular activity in its area it will make the judgment in that regard. The removal of the exemption relating to market rights, and the further provision contained in section 8 to the effect that any market right remaining unexercised for a period of not less than ten years will stand extinguished, will go some considerable way to resolving the problem posed by prescriptive rights.

The 1980 Act provides that a casual trading licence cannot be issued to any person who has committed two or more offences under the Act, within five years of those offences having been committed. This provision has been criticised as being unduly harsh and has indeed been the subject of a case before the Supreme Court. That court found the power to be constitutional and therefore I am proposing to retain this penalty. However, I propose under section 4 to amend the text to meet the court's criticism of the lack of clarity in the present text.

Section 4 also provides that a local authority shall, subject to certain specified circumstances, grant a casual trading licence to an applicant who pays the fee fixed by the local authority under that section and who fulfils certain conditions, including tax clearance. The latter issue will no doubt be of concern to some traders. This was a specific requirement contained in the Government decision approving the general scheme of the Bill and is a reflection of the Government's determination that the tax burden should be as equitable as possible for all sections of the community.

In this regard I have been advised by the Department of Finance that suitable arrangements to ensure that no casual trader, except for exceptional circumstances, will be refused a tax clearance certificate. Therefore, this new requirement will not be an obstacle to new or existing casual trading applicants for licences. In addition, section 6 provides for the application of the tax clearance requirements to the issue of casual trading licences in such a manner that it will not interfere with the casual trader's constitutional right to earn a livelihood. Under section 4, again in accordance with the Government's decision, there will be an obligation on the local authorities to inform the Minister for Social Welfare when a licence is issued.

The licensing regime proposed under section 4 will enable a local authority to either issue a general licence without territorial limitation in its own jurisdiction, or else confine it to casual trading areas or special events. Licensing of special events, such as sporting events, pop concerts and such gatherings, will make it possible for local authorities to deal more effectively with this type of trading.

Another major change which the Bill will make, and which has been suggested by the Department of the Environment, is to provide broad ranging powers under section 7 to the local authorities for the use of by-laws relating to the control, regulation, supervision and administration of casual trading in their functional areas. I would like to emphasise that these powers are more extensive than the present powers of local authorities under the 1980 Act to make by-laws which are limited to casual trading in casual trading areas under their control. This is, in effect, the most significant reform in the Bill and I am confident that it will give the local authorities the kind of flexibility they require to regulate casual trading more efficiently. They have sought those powers from successive Ministers.

In connection with the power of the local authorities under section 7 to set fees under by-laws, I would point out that local authorities already have discretionary power under the Local Government Act, 1983, to charge fees in excess of the £20 fee set by the Casual Trading Act, 1980. I am aware, however, that some local authorities do not consider that they currently have discretion to charge fees above the prescribed £20 limit because of decisions by the courts in favour of traders who objected to any increases in the fees for permits.

While I consider reasonable that local authorities should have flexibility with regard to the fixing of fees to cover administration costs, I would be concerned that local authorities would keep the fee limits at modest levels commensurate with this requirement. It is my intention in this regard to write to my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, at the appropriate time with a view to ensuring that this will be the case.

In making by-laws setting fees, local authorities will be able to provide for different circumstances and different classes of persons, including disabled and handicapped persons. This section will also provide power of appeal to any party, including a local authority, to the Circuit Court from the District Court in connection with by-laws proposed by a local authority.

In regard to enforcement, as the Minister for Enterprise and Employment will no longer have the function of issuing casual trading licences, I am proposing that he will have no role in enforcement. This will be the responsibility of local authorities and the Garda Síochána, who in practice already enforce the Act. Section 11 of the Bill reflects the new approach.

In this connection I would like to draw Deputies' attention to a small but important change which I intend to make to this section on Committee Stage, that local authorities will also be empowered to appoint persons other than officers of the local authorities. This additional power to appoint persons who are not employed by the local authorities will give them greater flexibility in operating the legislation, for example, in the area of managing markets.

Under section 13 the powers of the Garda Síochána to dispose of seized goods will be available to superintendents, where this function is currently reserved to the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. This change was suggested by the Department of Justice on behalf of the Garda and reflects the Government's philosophy in terms of devolving to local government decisions that can be best made at local level.

Section 15 of the Bill will have the effect of doubling the penalties for summary conviction and conviction on indictment to £1,000 and £10,000 respectively, and will bring these penalties in line with current levels in other legislation. In addition the courts' jurisdiction in relation to offences will be streamlined in the sense that a defendant's current right to trial by jury for an offence which the court and the Director of Public Prosecutions may consider to be fit to be tried summarily will be removed, again in accordance with current trends.

I will be proposing a small number of minor amendments to the Bill on Committee Stage. I have already referred to the proposed amendment to section 11 relating to the power of local authorities to appoint authorised officers. I intend also to propose a number of amendments to the Occasional Trading Act, 1979, in order that similar provisions of that Act will remain consistent with similar provisions in the Casual Trading Bill.

Occasional trading as defined under the 1979 Act means "selling of goods by retail at a premises or place (not being a public road or other place to which the public have access as of right) of which the person so selling has been in occupation for a continuous period of less than three months ending on the date of such selling". Persons who engaged in occasional trading are required to have an occasional trading permit which is granted by my Department on payment of the appropriate fee. The act is enforced by authorised officers appointed by the Minister for Enterprise and Employment. They have wide-ranging powers similar to those of authorised officers under the Casual Trading Act, 1980, to ask questions and to examine books and other records. Penalties under the Occasional Trading Act are identical to those in the Casual Trading Act.

I will, therefore, be proposing the following amendments to the Occasional Trading Act, 1979, to keep it consistent with provisions contained in this Bill: first, in relation to the number of exempted activities under section 2 of the Occasional Trading Act which are broadly the same as those contained in the Casual Trading Act, I will be proposing that the Minister for Enterprise and Employment should also have power to enable him, by regulations, to amend the exemptions if circumstances warrant; second, I propose to amend section 9 of the 1979 Act to increase penalties and streamline the jurisdiction of the courts to make this section consistent with the Bill and third, I propose to make similar provisions in the 1979 Act relating to tax clearance and social welfare matters. These are necessary changes which I consider should be made to the Occasional Trading Act, 1979, so that similar legislative provisions should apply to casual and occasional traders, thus avoiding any potential for discrimination in terms of their treatment under the respective Acts.

I am confident that the measures proposed in this Bill will bring about a considerable improvement in the regulation and enforcement of casual trading, and I commend it to the House.

I broadly welcome the thrust of the Bill. There has been unnecessary confusion in that licences are issued from the Department and permits from local authorities. This is not a sensible way of organising business. It is surprising the Minister has not decided that occasional trading activity be devolved to local authorities. I would have thought the arguments in favour of devolution would apply equally to occasional and casual trading. Tax and social welfare clearance will be required in respect of legal casual traders, the Bill will bring them into the white economy and make enforcement against illegal traders easier. It has been argued that a licence should contain a photograph of the person involved so that a correctly obtained permit would not be photocopied and widely used. Some measure of that nature would be sensible. I presume the Minister's reply will be that he will devolve this aspect of local authorities but perhaps he will make his views known on this matter.

The pursuing of summary prosecutions by local authorities should be permitted without the option of seeking trial by jury. My understanding is that the right to seek trial by jury has been abused in that it has been used as a tactic for evading prosecution where it is decided by the Director of Public Prosecutions that the cost of a trial by jury would be excessive. This seems a sensible measure but we will have to tease out on Committee Stage how it balances with people's rights under the law to opt for a trial by their peers.

Concerns have been expressed about the Bill and I take this opportunity to raise them. There is concern among local authorities that under exemptions relating to casual trading the question of selling to a person at a place or adjacent to the place where he resides or carries on business, could be open to abuse. It has been suggested under this provision exemption could be claimed in respect of hot dog stands. I am not sufficiently versed in legal terminology to know how the courts will interpret the word "adjacent". Will it mean that someone can rove around in a van, operate hot dog stands, etc? That concern needs to be addressed.

The Minister has decided to withdraw the right of a farmer or market gardner to sell his produce. This decision will be greeted with dismay by people who have traditionally sold their produce——

Not withdraw, regulate.

This relates to the cost of casual trading licences. Clearly we would not wish to impose excessive burdens on farmers and horticulturists who have traditionally sold their produce. It has been represented to me that a person can incur costs of several hundred pounds before finally establishing a legitimate right to continue their trade. This could impose a significant burden on a person who has a seasonable trade, for example, a person who sells strawberries. Further consideration should be given to this point. Will the Minister confirm that local authorities will have discretion not to apply a flat rate fee in all cases but can apply a different fee for a person who, for example, sells strawberries, so that the fee is commensurate with the activity?

Section 4 deals with the granting of casual trading licences by local authorities. Apart from a conviction during the past five years, the only reason a person can be refused a licence is if there is a shortage of places in which to conduct casual trading. It has been represented to me that it might be desirable for the Garda to screen applicants so that people with criminal backgrounds do not have extensive access to casual trading licences. Section 4 is very circumscribed in terms of the grounds upon which a local authority can refuse a licence: it has to grant a licence unless it can show that a person has a conviction or that insufficient places are available. I am interested in hearing the Minister's response to the suggestion that some sort of suitability test should be carried out on a regular basis. Moneylending is very tightly regulated because of the nature of that business. It seems that the local authorities will not be able to carry out any suitability test under this Bill. Will the Minister say whether he believes local authorities should be permitted to carry out some sort of suitability test rather than deciding the suitability of an applicant on the basis of convictions?

Section 7 seems to require local authorities to redesignate all their 1980 Act casual trading areas. This will give rise to considerable difficulties for local authorities as a person who is aggrieved at a decision may make an appeal to the District Court and, in turn, to the Circuit Court. There should be some transitional arrangement in this type of legislation which would give a person the right to challenge a decision but would also allow existing practice to continue without local authorities having to redesignate all the locations, have a motion passed by the city council and advertise the redesignated areas. We should design transitional arrangements which would be equitable to all concerned and which would not put an obligation on the local authority to go back to the drawing board.

The Minister's amendment No. 11 is a response to a concern of local authorities. I welcome his decision to replace the word "officer" with the term "authorised persons". Companies involved in franchising can provide a very good service in cleaning and running markets effectively and it is only right that local authorities should be able to give such companies the franchise to run these markets if they believe it is desirable to do so. I am glad the Minister has recognised that point and will table an appropriate amendment on Committee Stage.

Concern has been expressed about the powers of the Garda to seize goods. It has been argued that gardaí have little option but to return goods to persons from whom they were taken. The Bill proposes that a person must satisfy a Garda superintendent that he is the owner of such goods. This provision is rather loose in that there is no specification as to what constitutes adequate proof of ownership. In some cases a Garda superintendent might find it hard to refuse to return the goods. It has been argued that we have a revolving door system of casual trading whereby people who have had their goods seized can continue to sell goods on the street because of the inability of the Garda to prevent this occurring. I will tease out this matter further on Committee Stage. It has been suggested that the powers of the Garda to deal with illegal traders are somewhat limited. Perhaps the onus on traders to prove ownership should be strengthened and minimum requirements put in place.

Section 14 makes provision for the setting up of a register. However, it does not make it clear that the register will be open to public inspection. I presume it is not intended that this should be a private register but rather that people who have licences will be able to inspect it. Will the Minister say if it is unusual for applications for casual trading licences not to be advertised? Unlike planning applications where a notice is put in the paper, there is no obligation on applicants for a casual trading licence to notify people that they have applied for a licence. Withdrawal of the option to trial by jury should make enforcement of the law easier.

There is a concern among casual traders that the number of licences issued exceeds the number of spaces available. Some traders who have paid a high fee do not have access to suitable places from which to conduct their business. They have also made the legitimate case that enforcement against unlicensed casual trading has been lax and are anxious to have proper enforcement action taken by appointed officers. They are correct in requiring this.

If we want these people to comply with all their tax requirements and if we want to avoid social welfare abuses, there is an onus on us to provide them with an opportunity to conduct their licensed trade in a way that protects them from unlicensed traders who abuse that position. With the present 21 per cent PRSI, the 21 per cent VAT and the addition of personal income tax, the tax returns that a casual trader would have to make would be substantial. People in the black economy have a huge edge in terms of trading and could benefit from much lower margins.

There is a need for proper enforcement and protection as part of the Minister's correct decision to have a requirement for tax and social welfare clearance. This is a two-sided coin. The Minister did not dwell on the adequacy of the enforcement aspect of the Bill but there is a feeling among those conducting their business legally that that aspect leaves much to be desired. Will the Minister comment on that issue because insisting on tax clearance and so on is pointless if those who do not comply simply thumb their noses at the authorities.

Section 7 imposes an obligation on local authorities to publish notices but states that objections would have to go directly to the courts. That seems to impose unreasonable expense on people wishing to raise legitimate objections to the activities of the local authority. While a final right of appeal to a court may be necessary, surely it would be preferable to have provisions similar to those for development plans where local authorities publish their proposals and a specific period is allowed for consideration of legitimate objections. The council would then vote on the proposals and I presume there would be an entitlement to appeal to the District Court. In general we should try to keep such matters out of the courts if they can be dealt with more effectively elsewhere.

Under the recent roads legislation, for example, in cases where objections were raised to local authorities closing lanes an independent person is appointed to conduct a hearing, and a report is sent to the local authority before it makes a final decision. The Minister should examine that model.

Or they could publish draft by-laws.

There would then be a period within which to lodge an objection and an option to appoint someone to hold a hearing if there were contentious issues requiring arbitration independent of the local authority officials presenting the case. A report would be sent to the local authority members who would then take a decision on the various issues. That seems a more reasonable approach and would mean casual traders could not feel aggrieved about not getting a fair crack of the whip and would satisfy those who feel aggrieved by the extent of casual trading. They could pursue their case without incurring excessive legal costs. Casual traders consider it unfair in that if they wish to defend their livelihood they must have recourse to the courts. They argue that other legitimately licensed traders are not required to go to court to pursue issues that should be pursued under the legislation in the first instance.

I welcome the Minister giving local authorities scope to exempt certain classes, where they see fit, and the right to make by-laws. Given that the Minister rightly wants to keep fees down, will the administration of these regulations impose an additional burden on local authorities?

They will get the fees that we normally receive.

Will they get the fines?

Nobody gets the fines but local authorities will get the fees.

It is not entirely clear from the Minister's statement what they will be getting.

Will the fees be substantial?

The fees referred to in the Bill are £20 but my understanding is that the fees being paid to the Minister's Department were ten times that sum. How will this be made consistent with the Minister's desire to keep fees at modest levels? Local authorities should not be left with responsibility for providing that casual traders do not have excessive charges imposed on them and the obligation of enforcement which, given the new regulations on tax clearance, will have to be more rigorous and will require additional resources.

Local authorities, who find it difficult to carry out their principal activities, should not be required to dig deeper into their almost empty pockets to fund the enforcement of regulations that was traditionally, but wrongly, carried out by central Government. The Minister is placing responsibility on local authorities for a significant loss-making activity. When appeals are lodged for excess fees, the Government will wash its hands and say that local authorities were given the power and they should deal with it.

We would never do that.

The Minister must deal with the proper costings of good enforcement methods and whether that can be reasonably paid for by fees levied on casual traders. There are not many circumstances in which we would expect enforcement to be borne by the legitimate trader. We do not even expect the banks to carry the full cost of protecting their money. If enforcement is to be expensive, casual traders should not be expected to carry all the cost and local authorities should not have to dip into their pockets. In general I welcome the Bill.

I welcome the Bill although there is scope for improvement in its provisions. I was pleased to hear the Minister indicate he will be tabling some amendments. Deputy Bruton and I will be tabling amendments. The Bill, as drafted, represents a major improvement on the position obtaining in many of our towns and cities which is far from satisfactory.

We should aim within the context of any new law to provide proper protection for casual traders who want to trade legally. This is a legitimate type of trade. We should endeavour to strike a proper balance between casual traders and the major ratepayers, the shopkeepers who carry very large overheads, who are the mainstay and comprise the major part of trade in any village, town or city. We must aim at all times to strike a proper balance of rights between those two sections of trade.

Also within the context of any new legislation we should strive to recognise reality, to put in place the kind of law that will put out of business casual traders who persist in engaging within the black economy. That must be the overall philosophy of the provisions of this Bill.

Over the past ten years in particular there has been a virtual explosion of casual trading here and in other countries. In those circumstances it is only right and proper that we should seek to regulate such trading in law, which is what we are endeavouring to do in this Bill. This kind of trading has had adverse effects on traders whom I might describe as being the major ratepayers.

I think in the Deputy's city they are referred to as the merchant princes.

There are very few of them left now but clearly the Minister knows what I am talking about. There are market towns when on a fair day — the day on which the local shopkeeper and publican expect to have their major takings — casual traders with cars and vans move into the parking lot in the town square. They will arrive before opening hours and take over all the available parking space. They displace customers and trade for the remainder of that fair day, taking the pickings of what, in other circumstances, would go to the shopkeepers, the major ratepayers. That is a major source of anger. That is the kind of activity they want to see us legislators regulating and it will be dealt with in this Bill.

I am told there are towns in the west where traders move in and remain for the whole of the tourist season, without licence or permit. Local shopkeepers, who pay their VAT, rates and PRSI in respect of their employees are placed at a major disadvantage because this kind of activity has been allowed to continue for too long. This Bill is not before its time.

Worst of all is the blatant selling of stolen goods on the outskirts of villages and towns. There appears to have been no law enforcement to come to terms with that. That latter activity must be killed off altogether within the context of a law that is well framed and rigorously enforced. These were the major irritants mentioned to me in the context of inquiries I made when framing my Second Stage contribution.

Also mentioned were the special events which have become the scourge of many towns and cities — the Síamsa Cois Laoí, the Féile in Thurles, events of that nature — when men from God knows where move in with their vans, trucks and lorries, cream off the spending power over the events of a weekend and then disappear. They do not contribute a penny to the local authority for cleaning up after they have left. All they leave in a town is the remains of their rubbish having exploited young people who will have parted with their pocket money. It is vital that this type of activity be brought within the ambit of the law. That is something that will tax all of us and will have to be addressed in detail on Committee Stage. For example, is a fellow selling caps on O'Connell Street on an All-Ireland football or hurling day to be controlled or is he to be exempted? Casual trade is a very disparate sort of thing. It will be difficult to define the areas that must be held liable to licence and brought within the law. On Committee Stage I will be tabling amendments with the assistance of people who have had experience of these activities.

In general terms the great strength of this Bill is giving local authorities the licensing power. Local authorities know the impact of granting a licence to trade in any given area. They should be given discretion to include or exclude a certain kind of activity.

I hope that the devolution of this power will be taken on board by a number of other Ministers. I know it forms part of the aspiration of the joint Programme for Government. It is absurd to observe the manner in which local authorities are precluded from making their own by-laws in regard to a number of most ordinary functions within their areas. They must rather refer to central Government for the making of by-laws and regulations. That is not the appropriate manner in which to operate local government. One of the strengths of this Bill is that it represents a real effort to put local government in place. The local authorities have the local knowledge and they are the people best placed to ensure that this kind of activity is regulated and controlled for the general good of people within their areas.

If local authorities are to be given functions, where appropriate and necessary, they must also be given the requisite resources and pesonnel to ensure that the provisions of this Bill are fully implemented in all their elements and, whenever there is a breach of the law, it is dealt with in such a way as to ensure the provisions operate for the overall good.

The Minister said that local authorities would have power to set their scale of fees. This is important. It may not be that in all cases the scale of fees would justify the cost; that is to be expected. I do not think any sensible county or city manager would seek to offset the cost of putting this law in place and endeavour to recoup those costs from fees alone. If the scale of fees is too high people will inevitably be forced to trade in the black economy. Certainly, we should not look to fees to make up for the cost of the implementation of this Bill. If we are serious about making this Bill work central Government must be prepared to provide the additional resources.

Garda powers must be strengthened to enable them to deal with breaches of the law, another issue more appropriate to Committee Stage. My local authority said that fines imposed under the control of Dogs Act — which has given rise to more music hall jokes than anything else — go into the Exchequer like all money raised from fines. Local authorities have said there should be decentralisation of fines and perhaps we should start the process with this legislation. Where there is a breach of the law and the fines provided for in the Bill are sizeable — otherwise they would not act as a deterrent — we should try to ensure that the money from fines can be retained by the licensing authority. That makes sense and would provide an incentive to local authorities to ensure that breaches of the law are followed through and dealt with. I ask the Minister to consider how best that could be put in place by way of an amendment.

The Garda are extremely responsible, and rightly so, and goods are not seized lightly. Under existing law goods are rarely seized and where they are there should be a procedure whereby they can be disposed of and the proceeds given to local authorities.

I am glad the Minister has given discretion to local authorities to make out their own list of exemptions because different factors apply in different areas. While we want to control casual traders we do not want to kill casual trade because casual trade of a certain kind is part of the appeal and charm of a country. When we go to a European city one of the first places we want to visit is the open air market. Part of the appeal of an agricultural country — even though our climate kills this type of trade — is that it should be possible for cheese makers to sell to the passing public and to tourists. The same applies to home-made products. I have in mind Mannings Emporium, Ballylickey, west Cork where the cheeses, fruit and vegetables of the region are put outside the shop in a series of beautifully painted wheel barrows. This is a charming place where you can get lovely home-made cheese, home-made bread and a bottle of wine. It is what encourages people to visit such a place. That type of activity fits the landscape like a glove and it is important not to kill the potential in this regard. There is a number of areas where similar type activities could be carried out and a younger generation will probably do more of that type of work. If we were to proscribe in law, the potential of putting that in place, it would be an enormous loss. Local authorities are the best judges of whether that type of activity enhances an area and I am glad they are given discretion under the provisions of this Bill.

Some young people make very good quality enamel and silver jewellery and if they want to set up in an open air market in a town for the short tourist season, they should be facilitated.

Many people sell strawberries for the short summer season. The strawberries I buy on the side of the road taste much better than those in a restaurant and are cheaper. While the Minister is proposing to include products not included under the 1980 Act — agriculture and horticultural products — the scale of fees and the designation policy should facilitate this kind of activity.

I am glad the Minister made provision for local authorities to franchise. I have direct experience of this with the English market in Cork which had become higgledy-piggledy in recent years and where the local authority did not have the resources to run it to its maximum effect. It was franchised this year and the difference is remarkable as the market is now trading well. It is important there is provision in the Bill for franchising by local authorities.

Local authorities are experiencing difficulty with traders who have historical rights, going back many generations. There is a danger in one or two areas of the country and cities that a pitched battle may erupt where local authorities attempt to put new designations in the areas. We will have to give whatever assistance we can to put in place a provision seen to be fair to traditional traders. We must also seek to put in place the kind of system that will be fair to everybody and which will improve the trading prospects of people who have traded in those areas for so long. There has been little investment in those areas which have become run down. In the long term it is in everybody's interest that an improvement plan be put in place even though it may lead to displacement. Any assistance that could be given to local authorities to help them deal with that aspect would be welcome. I am glad the Minister intends to insist on a casual trader having a tax clearance certificate. Local authorities are unclear as to how door-to-door selling will be dealt with in law. It is up to us to provide for that but the Bill does not contain any clear directive in this area. I welcome the Bill which, in essence, is a good one. It is long overdue and I look forward to dealing with it in greater detail on Committee Stage.

I am of a similar disposition to previous speakers in that this is sensible legislation and likely to contribute to a general improvement in the quality of life of those affected by some of the more wayward dimensions of the problem. I do not profess to be an expert in this area unlike Deputy Gregory who, unfortunately, is absent. I cannot say for sure if he would agree with me that it is a sensible measure. The indications are we will not conclude Second Stage today so perhaps he will have an opportunity to contribute on an aspect of street trading with which he is associated.

The nub of the Bill is the ending of the crazy dual licensing arrangement. On the one hand, the Department makes a decision on an application for casual trader's licence and, on the other, the local authority decides whether a permit will be granted. There is not necessarily any compatibility between the two decisions. I welcome the fact that the Bill devolves power to the local authority to make the decision as they are in a better position to decide what activity should be carried on in their functional area. However, I do not know if resources will be made available to enable them make and enforce such decisions.

When the Minister says that local authorities will get the licence fee I do not know if that will amount to a tin of beans. He has not indicated the kind of revenue the local authorities could anticipate.

Describing the background to this legislation and how the 1980 Act came into existence, the Minister dealt with the question of competition and the balance that must be struck between the rights of casual traders and those of regular traders who incur overheads not borne by casual traders. Both sections have their rights and entitlements. The conclusion of the Restrictive Practices Commission that casual trading amounts to fair trading is an important finding.

I would like to hear the Minister expand on the point "subject to it making a more realistic contribution to public funds." I am not aware of the contribution that is made nor what would be considered "reasonable". I do not know if any more up to date work has been done on it but I would be concerned that devolving power to local authorities as the licensing authority and also devolving the enforcement role to them and to the Garda would result in a "that is it off our plate, it is up to them to provide the resources" attitude. I suspect the contribution from the licensing fees is negligible and would not enable the local authority to implement the provisions of the Bill.

No one can argue with the principle of devolving this function to the local authority. There is no way in which a Department can decide what is suitable for the respective administrative areas of local authorities. Local authorities in Dublin differ in terms of the conditions they apply, not to mention other large urban authorities and rural authorities. Their positions are dramatically different in character, environmental considerations and so on.

There is a wide definition of casual trading in the Bill. Section 2 defines it as "selling goods at a place (including a public road) to which the public have access of right or at any other place that is a casual trading area". That is a market expansion of the definition from the 1980 Act which contained a raft of exclusions. When one considers that the 1980 Act covered a narrower area and there is still widespread dissatisfaction with its operation, one must conclude there is a major problem with enforcement.

There are different kinds of casual trading and they leave different problems in their wake. My constituency, which is not too different in some areas from the Minister's, is a sprawling suburban area. Casual food traders can cause major problems. I cannot remember if my namesake Mr. Jimmy Rabbitte had a licence for his van but his story gave me an insight into the point of view of the trader as distinct from the residents' viewpoint. The chipper van pulls up at the corner of a street and proceeds to trade. The irony is that the majority of local residents condone it and utilise the service provided, but for the unfortunate residents immediately adjacent to the chipper van the nuisance can be a nightmare. Litter is strewn around and it serves as a focal point for youths from the area and it can cause a real headache to residents in the immediate vicinity. Frequently these residents get a very poor hearing from their neighbours because they regard it as a facility and the fact that it is a source of constant nuisance to some cuts no ice. The Minister may say it could be dealt with under the 1980 Act but from my experience it has not been dealt with and for one reason or another enforcement has been deficient. I know people who were forced to sell their houses as a result of finding themselves at a focal point which attracts this type of casual trader.

I agree with other Deputies who have highlighted the need to look more closely at enforcement. It does not seem to follow automatically that the local authority, to whom the functions have been devolved, will automatically be in a position to implement them effectively.

Deputy Quill referred to the character of a town or city and this is very important. We have to strike a balance between the right of regular traders and casual traders. It is part of the colour and character of areas of our towns and cities that casual trading be permitted. Mrs. Dunne in the flats has as much right to make a living as Mr. Dunne in the super-market. Both of them supply a legitimate service and, provided it is subject to control and regulation, I see no reason that it is not acceptable. I recognise that the situation has changed dramatically in recent times. Until some years ago the items that one could expect to buy from a street trader were restricted to newspapers, fruit and so on. The range now is much wider and it is a matter of concern to traders who have overheads to discharge. The local authority which is familiar with the situation should be able to strike a balance.

I have the impression that although local authorities have the power to designate sites for casual trading they have not done so very effectively. In my constituency, which is a new area, the local authority has not designated areas but there may be financial or enforcement dimensions. The Department gives a casual trader a licence, for which he must pay a fee, but the local authority is not in a position to provide him with reasonable facilities where he can conduct his trade.

Generally local people, especially those on low incomes, welcome a market, but they are dissatisfied with the environmental consequences of such a market. The clean up after the traders have left often leaves a great deal to be desired. For some reason this is not being sufficiently addressed.

There is a great deal of flexibility in the Bill in terms of the situation to date and what the local authority may do. I do not see provision for members of the travelling community — perhaps the Minister believes it is encompassed in the Bill. I understand from my colleague, Deputy McManus, in her capacity as chairperson of the task force on travelling people, that the task force has received submissions on this point. This matter should be addressed and this is the opportunity to do so. This might address some of the other causes of tension that exists between the settled community and the travelling people.

Is it envisaged that the local authority will have responsibility for the hygiene of casual food trading outlets? This is the second area of complaint in politicians' advice centres? In my experience the local authority officials shrug their shoulders saying they cannot possibly police such outlets. I presume it is the responsibility of the health board but again it is unclear how it can be done in practice.

There is mounting concern about the involvement of criminals in casual trading, especially in the cities. For example, bootleg tapes are sold openly on the streets of this city. Apart from the question of competition this raises questions as to performer's rights, royalities and the quality of the product. I read recently that an allegedly famous or notorious criminal has muscled in on the business of fruit stalls in certain parts of the city. It is hard to take, if this is common knowledge, that for some reason we have not been able to address this problem effectively. It is grossly unfair to legitimate street traders who have prescriptive rights and who have succeeded their mothers and grandmothers that this element has been allowed to creep in.

Under section 5 of the 1980 Act the holders of casual trading permits were allowed to engage in casual trading in one place only or on specified days. That provision appears to be missing from this Bill. Has this concept been abandoned and, if so, why?

The provision that the Department of Social Welfare should be notified when a person has been issued with a licence has been neatly included. While it would be difficult to object to this provision are we being even-handed? Is this duty imposed in respect of other activities in the economy? It is hard to believe that the ladies with the prams would be subject to this requirement. Is this provision applied when Deputy Hughes' constituents or the small number of farmers in my constituency apply for grants?

When speaking about the tax clearance certificate the Minister said piously that we adopt an even-handed approach. In my experience this is not the case. This week the Committee of Public Accounts will examine the way a significant public service contract was given to a business which was not in a position to provide a tax clearance certificate although another business was in a position to do so. I am not objecting to this provision in principle and it is a good idea that it ought to be applied fairly across the board.

I welcome the Bill provided we will have an opportunity to examine it more closely on Committee Stage. I would like to think that this sensible devolution of power will be matched by the provision of resources to allow the local authorities carry out the task envisaged in the Bill given that it impinges on the lives of ordinary people. A framework will be put in place to improve the position. Can the Minister give us an estimate of the revenue that is likely to be raised?

Deputy Quill referred to once-off events. A large sporting facility in my constituency is a tremendous asset. It has a national dimension. Local people have protested about the fall-out from some events held there. Recently residents tipped the rubbish they had gathered in plastic sacks in the office of the county manager to highlight their exasperation about the difficulties encountered in the wake of major events.

What is the reason occasional trading and casual trading are not treated in the same way? What is the reason local authorities do not have control over occasional trading? This is a major issue for residents in urban constituencies such as mine given that casual trading becomes a focal point for miscreants. It is of paramount importance that we have the capacity to implement and enforce the provisions of this Bill, otherwise people will not notice any visible difference. I suspect that we will have to return to the question of financing again.

While this is a short Bill it deals with a complex issue which will have to be teased out on Committee Stage. Listening to Deputy Quill one would think we were living in Provence in France. She spoke about the lovely cheeses, good wine and brown bread——

In west Cork.

It has the same ambience.

I welcome the fact that our standard of living has improved. In times gone by we depended on casual traders for the necessities of life——

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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