Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Mar 1994

Vol. 440 No. 6

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Special Beef Premium.

Austin Currie

Question:

7 Mr. Currie asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Donal Carey

Question:

18 Mr. Carey asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Liam Burke

Question:

21 Mr. L. Burke asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Peter Barry

Question:

24 Mr. Barry asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberate false declaration is unacceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Alan M. Dukes

Question:

41 Mr. Dukes asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Frances Fitzgerald

Question:

51 Ms F. Fitzgerald asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Brendan McGahon

Question:

65 Mr. McGahon asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Jim Mitchell

Question:

68 Mr. J. Mitchell asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Paul Connaughton

Question:

72 Mr. Connaughton asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference in these letters that the farmers involved made a deliberately false declaration is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

John Connor

Question:

92 Mr. Connor asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry if his attention has been drawn to the fact that letters are currently being issued by his Department to hundreds of farmers throughout the country who are applicants for the February 1993 special beef premium, informing them that they are disqualified from this scheme in view of the inconsistencies in the declared age of some of the animals on their applications by reference to the December 1992 beef premium scheme; his views on whether it is fair to apply the regulations in this way; his views on whether the inference of these letters that the farmers involved made deliberately false declarations is acceptable; and if he will have this inference withdrawn and apologies issued to those against whom it was made.

Mr. J. Walsh

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 18, 21, 24, 41, 51, 52, 65, 68, 72 and 92 together.

I am aware of the problems associated with inconsistencies in the ages of animals involved in January/February 1993 applications by comparison with the ages declared for the same animals the previous November/December. Indeed my Department took up the matter with the European Commission in April 1993. In its response to my Department in June 1993 the European Commission agreed as an exception that no farmers should be held to the ages declared in 1992 where the ages declared in 1993 were different provided that the age declarations were made by different producers. In other words, they agreed that a farmer declaring the ages of animals in good faith in 1993 should not be penalised because a different farmer declared different ages in 1992. Where, however, the same farmer declared different ages for male cattle in 1992 and 1993 the Commission did not indicate that this flexibility could apply.

In the light of this reply from the EU Commission the Department was left with no choice but to penalise farmers where ages were declared differently by the same applicants in 1992 and 1993 and where such differences made animals which seemed to be ineligible for 1993 22 month premium on foot of the ages declared in 1992 seem eligible for that premium on foot of the ages declared in 1993. I have, however, arranged to have the issue raised again with the Commission.

Mr. Connor

I thank the Minister for his helpful reply to the effect that the Department is seeking to remove this anomaly. The Minister accepts that some farmers who applied for the ten month beef premium in December 1992 may have been somewhat inaccurate regarding the age of the animal — it only had to be ten months. Under the first application of the special beef premium applied for in 1993 a specific age was demanded. Would the Minister agree that it is wrong for the Department to issue a circular informing farmers that they are being disqualified by reason of the inconsistency in the ages? Does he further agree that it is wrong that there should be a paragraph which reads: "Such an applicant should be regarded as having made a deliberate false declaration and should not be paid any beef premium for 1993 and should be excluded also from the 1994 special beef premium scheme."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must not quote at Question Time.

Mr. Connor

I am quoting from a letter sent by the Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Mr. Connor

The letter begins: "I am directed by the Minister...."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should respect the rulings of the Chair and avoid the tendency to argue.

Mr. J. Walsh

I took the matter up with the Commission in April 1993. This is an EU scheme paid for by the Community and it laid down the rules. Some farmers applied in November-December 1992 for nine month old animals and within three months the same animals owned by the same farmers seemed to become eligible for the 22 month premium. The European Commission could not fathom this and were not prepared to accept that farmers did not have a reasonable knowledge of the age of the animals concerned. I will take the matter up with the Commission in an effort to resolve it.

Mr. McGinley

Is the Minister aware that the forms are so complicated that the ordinary farmer would need expert advice — perhaps the advice of the Attorney General — when filling them in? Does the Department plan to simpify the form so that ordinary farmers with a few head of cattle on the land can fill them in and not be accused of supplying false information.

Mr. J. Walsh

I accept that initially at least the forms were quite complex. The difficulty is that there is a substantial amount of money involved. There will be in the region of £600 million paid to farmers under these schemes next year, which is a considerable amount of money. All of the moneys paid out under the premium schemes come from Europe, so it feels entitled to lay down the regulations and is entitled to accountability for this substantial sum. Since the inception of the schemes we have sought to simplify the forms and in conjunction with Teagasc we have organised a range of information meetings and the staff of Teagasc is available at information offices throughout the county to help farmers. There is a plethora of advice and help lines available. Farmers would prefer to be out on the land than filling up forms. For each eligible animal a farmer is entitled to a special beef premium of £73 at ten months and at 22 months. The Commission is entitled to have the expenditure of that money accounted for.

Mrs. T. Ahearn

Would the Minister not agree that we are coming to the stage where farmers will need secretarial assistance to ensure they qualify for the premium and shortly each animal will need to have a birth and a death certificate? I am aware that farmers have been refused premiums because they could not remember the exact day the animal was born — farmers do not celebrate or record the birth of an animal — and they may lose their premiums because they did not inform the office of the loss of an animal within ten days of its death. Is it proposed to inform Brussels that keeping the necessary records is causing a great deal of distress to farmers? Would he agree that the penalties are too severe when unintentional errors occur?

Mr. J. Walsh

I accept that the forms are complex but the subsidies involved are very generous. Forms have to be filled out when applying for any grant or subsidy and there is a requirement that people must be entitled to the payments. Assistance to fill out the forms is available at weekends and at night from Teagasc, which has gone out of its way to be available to farmers day or night. If I wanted to be smart I could say that these are voluntary schemes and people do not have to apply if they do not want the money.

Mr. Crawford

Farmers cannot afford not to.

Mr. Molloy

They have to live.

Mr. J. Walsh

If people want to avail of these payments they must apply for them. One has to apply for any grant, for example, a house grant. Farmers are entitled to these payments on the basis of making an application. When the application is correctly completed and returned the money is paid.

Mr. Connor

They should not be tripped up.

Mr. J. Walsh

There is no question of a trip up. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry staff throughout its regional offices, as well as Teagasc staff in a the farm centres, are available to help people. The service is free for small farmers in the west and the charge is £30 per annum for everybody else who avails of this service. This is a very good service and I encourage farmers to use it more extensively. It would be in their own interests and it would make it easier for the Department to implement the scheme.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Does the Minister accept on reflection that his references to farmers' form filling was derogatory? Would he not agree that it is complex and farmers would need to have a computer in the back kitchen to keep up to date with the plethora of schemes and the complexity of the forms involved? How much assistance is available to farmers? I am not referring to Teagasc as its staff is overworked and cannot keep up with what it has to do. There are 4,000 civil servants in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and why is a form that it is not properly completed not returned immediately to the farmer with the inconsistencies pointed out? Why is it necessary to impose such penalties for innocent mistakes? Would he not accept that they are entirely unfair and will he take steps to ensure that this unfair regime is lifted?

Mr. J. Walsh

I accept that in the first instance the forms are complex. They have been set by the European Union, the piper who pays the farmers. The Commission insists on returns and that farmers comply with the regulations. Nevertheless following negotiations with the Commission we have introduced a number of measures to simplify and rationalise the forms.

I do not accept that one needs a computer in the back kitchen when filling up such forms. The Department at all its offices throughout the country and Teagasc have been outstandingly helpful to farmers. The implication that Teagasc has not been doing its job is outrageous.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

No one suggested that.

Mr. J. Walsh

They have been available day and night and at weekends and they have come to cold draughty halls throughout the length and breadth of the country to explain the schemes. They have been very helpful. Farmers should avail of the services, the help sheets and the help lines that Teagasc and the Department provide and that would make life easier for them and for the Department.

Miss Coughlan

Cé mhéid feirmeoirí atá i gceist? In how many cases have discrepancies arisen? Would the Minister agree that the application forms for the special beef premium are causing the problem and that discrepancies should be notified to the district veterinary officers who can address the matter directly with the farmer and have it sorted out before the Department submits the application to the European Union?

I concur with the sentiments expressed by the Minister about the tremendous service that Teasgasc has given to farmers.

Mr. J. Walsh

While the Department and Teagasc are providing an outstanding service I accept there is room for improvement. The forms are complex and farmers are required to fill them in using the correct tag numbers. They are also required to submit documentation such as identification cards. If forms are filled in correctly the process can be speeded up. Since the introduction of large compensatory payments European Union auditors have visited the Department and farmers and insisted that proper records are kept. The accounting officer and departmental officials have to account for any discrepancies. This matter has to be taken seriously. In recent times in the completion of forms for the special beef premium scheme there has been a marked improvement. I expect a new system to be in place by the end of the year to simplify and speed up the process.

Mr. Nealon

Is the Minister aware that the anxiety of farmers about area aid scheme maps, grants and premia could be allayed if they could speak to someone in the Department? Is he aware that farmers find it impossible to contact the Department in Dublin or its offices in Castlebar by telephone and that when they eventually get through they may have to wait for three-quarters of an hour to an hour? Will he put some system in place to allow farmers gain access, particularly at critical times?

Mr. J. Walsh

Last year departmental officials attended meetings in farm centres and halls throughout the country to give information to farmers. The same procedure has been followed this year; hundreds of meetings have been held to help farmers comply with requirements under these schemes. They appreciate what the Department and Teagasc are doing. Recently, with the help of Deputies and Senators——

Mr. Nealon

Farmers cannot contact the Department by telephone.

Mr. J. Walsh

I am not aware of any difficulties in that regard. At local offices——

Mr. Nealon

They are excellent but the Department will not accept any calls and it is not possible to contact the office in Castlebar by telephone. A farmer from Deputy Ahearn's constituency in South Tipperary drove to the office in Castlebar to ask officials to telephone him.

Mr. J. Walsh

I would like to hear about such cases.

Mr. Crawford

The Minister will be busy.

Mr. J. Walsh

There are 650,000 applications worth £600 million per annum. Applicants must comply with the requirements——

Mr. Nealon

But not to have a heart attack.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Minister without interruption, please.

Mr. J. Walsh

I do not think it poses any danger to one's health.

Mr. Boylan

A large number of questions have been tabled.

Mr. J. Walsh

A number of interesting matters have been raised.

Mr. Callely

Opposition spokespersons are not used to their new portfolios.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Questions Nos. 42 and 89 have not been answered.

An Ceann Comhairle

The questioning is very untidy and we are making little progress.

Mr. McCormack

The Minister has praised the staff of Teagasc for the wonderful work they are doing. They are being run off their feet. Is the Minister aware that at a recent meeting in Athenry an official informed farmers that he would not be able to deal with their applications for three months due to the backlog? When will the Department devise a system to ensure farmers are paid grants when they fall due for payment? Public representatives would not then have to contact the Department and use up the time of its officials. There would also be no need to have a special line——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have brevity at this time; I am not prepared to remain unduly long on this question. We have dealt with it adequately, a large number of questions have been asked.

Mr. McCormack

When will the Minister ensure that farmers are paid grants when they fall due? This would ease the frustration felt by all concerned, including the Minister and his officials.

Mr. J. Walsh

Eligible applicants encounter no undue delays. This is not the case when queries have to be raised. One of the Deputy's colleagues asked the reason for the delay in paying the third instalment of the ewe premium. The earliest date on which this could have been paid was 15 March.

Mr. Nealon

What about beef headage payments?

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions have been asked; let us hear the replies.

Mr. Crawford

I agree with Deputy Coughlan that there is a need for decentralisation. It is unsatisfactory that farmers have to telephone offices in Portlaoise and Castlebar or in Dublin. Officers are only available to deal with queries for a few hours each day. This is in contrast with the number of officers available to the sheriff in County Donegal when cattle have to be moved. There is a need to streamline the system. I accept that the Minister is trying to resolve the issue in Brussels——

An Ceann Comhairle

I asked for brevity.

Mr. Crawford

The position is that very few farmers purposely complete the forms incorrectly. Even the bureaucracy in Brussels would accept that.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is becoming a wider debate.

Mr. Crawford

Will the Minister continue his efforts?

Mr. J. Walsh

in 1992, £409 million was paid to farmers under these schemes, £445 million was paid last year, over £500 million will be paid this year while over £600 million will be paid next year. I have given a commitment that payments will be made within three months of the date of application to all eligible applicants next year. The position will be improved significantly this year. Considerable sums of money are involved.

Ms McManus

It was reported that Teagasc had employed an extra 100 part-time workers to help farmers in filling out application forms. I wish social welfare recipients were offered the same service given that the forms are very complex. Will these workers be employed on a continuous basis to provide this service or only at the times when forms have to be completed?

Mr. J. Walsh

Additional staff are employed on contract. A number of measures have been introduced. Additional moneys were provided in the budget for computerisation to speed up the process of making payments to farmers under these schemes. The question of staff is a matter in the first instance for Teagasc.