Jim O'Keeffe
Question:2 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Taoiseach the increase in unemployment between January 1987 and January 1994; and the estimated net number who emigrated during the same seven year period.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Unemployment and Emigration Statistics.
Unemployment declined from 232,000 in April 1987 to 230,000 in April 1993, the latest period for which information is available from the labour force survey. During the same period — April 1987 to April 1993 — it is estimated that outward migration exceeded inward migration by 115,000 persons.
Is the Minister unable to give a figure for unemployment in 1987?
The figure was 232,000 in 1987.
What was the figure on the live register?
The question relates to the increase or decline in unemployment between 1987 and 1994 and, according to the labour force survey, it decreased by 2,000, from 232,000 in April 1987 to 230,000 in April 1993.
Will the Minister give the number of people on the live register in January 1987 and January 1994?
If the Deputy puts down a question I will give him that information.
Would the Minister not agree that the only way to assess the increase in unemployment in that period is to give the figures for January 1987 and January 1993?
I do not agree and neither would anybody who compiles statistics here or in Europe. The most accurate way of measuring the increase in unemployment is by the labour force survey conducted each year. I presume the Deputy is looking for the end of month live register figures. They are not regarded as——
What are they?
I do not have them because the Deputy did not ask that question.
What is the increase in unemployment?
They are not regarded as an objective measure of the absolute level of unemployment; they are only an indicator of unemployment. Some people who are unemployed may not be included on the live register — we all know such people — while others who satisfy the conditions may not be unemployed. The labour force figures are the most accurate figures in this regard.
The Minister is evading the issue in this question.
Nonsense.
The question relates to the increase in unemployment which, according to everybody except the Government, is assessed by reference to the numbers on the live register. That increase is probably in the order of 70,000 to 100,000. I thought the Minister would be in a position to give me the figure. It is outrageous that he does not bring in the basic statistical information — perhaps the reason is that he is ashamed of Fianna Fáil's record on unemployment and emigration since coming to Government in 1987.
How many people are at work?
Let us proceed by way of supplementary question; let us not enter into the area of policy.
I am looking for the figures.
The questions we have embarked upon are essentially statistical.
The Deputy's question relates to the increase in unemployment between January 1987 and January 1994. Those figures are based on the labour force survey. I have given the Deputy the information he requested. If he wants the figures for the end of each month since 1987 he should put down a question and I will have no difficulty in giving him that information. It is not my fault the Deputy did not ask the question properly. I have given him the answer to the question he asked and if he wants further information he should put down a question rather than expect me to carry the information in my back pocket.
The Minister will not escape. I will come back to that question.
We are getting bogged down on questions.
Would the Minister agree that if the period of comparison was the shorter period of the last National Plan, which clearly did not succeed in its objectives, unemployment as measured by the live register increased by 80,000 and emigration increased by 90,000?
What was the increase in employment?
There was a very small increase of 35,000.
The Deputy's question relates to the period 1987-90 and, from the labour force survey, unemployment decreased by 56,000 during that period.
Which period?
1987 to 1990.
I asked about 1990.
On the net number of people who emigrated during the seven years in question, will the Minister give a percentage breakdown of the number of under 25 years and the number of graduates? Does the Minister have a stastical picture of the extent of the brain drain during the seven years in question?
We are having quite an extension of the subject matter of this question.
This is an extension of the question. I do not have these statistics with me, and I am not sure if they are available. When talking about figures on migration, it is important to point out that a number of aspects are taken into account. The only real way of measuring a decline in population is to compare the figures in one census with those in another. The decline in population is estimated on an annual basis but these figures cannot be relied upon as being totally accurate. Many different issues have to be taken into account. If the information the Deputy is seeking is available — I doubt very much if it is because everyone leaving the country would have to be asked their age, whether they were graduates, etc. — I will get it for her.
Will the Minister agree that it is very difficult to make comparisons between 1987 and 1984 in terms of unemployment figures in view of the Government's policy of pumping thousands of people on various schemes to artifically reduce the figures?
Policy matters do not come into this, Deputy.
I am talking about figures.
The Deputy will have to put down separate questions on policy.
I am asking a question about figures. The Government is deliberately reducing the figures in the early part of 1994 in advance of the elections on 9 June.
That is a ridiculous assertion by Deputy Gilmore.
It is more of the same.
It is a fact.
It is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. I apologise to Deputy Bruton if I referred to the wrong period. Between 1990-93 the labour force grew by 65,000. I thought the Deputy was asking about the period 1987-90——
I was looking for the unemployment figures, not the labour force figures.
Order.
Will the Minister agree it is important to compile the statistical information I sought in my previous supplementary so that we can properly plan our industrial policy for the years ahead?
It would be wonderful to have the type of statistics suggested by the Deputy. We would also have full employment very quickly as hundreds of thousands of people would have to be employed to do all the checking. It is not a feasible——
In this age of advanced technology, I cannot accept that.
People would have to be employed to ask people at ports whether they were under 25, graduates, etc. It would be impossible to compile the detailed information sought by the Deputy.
Such questions could be included in an already supplied form.
Order, please.
I am interested in getting correct figures from the Minister. The Government has been exposed to the extent that it has now admitted 115,000 people emigrated during a seven year period. On the increase in unemployment, will the Minister agree that in reply to a parliamentary question from me on 8 March he outlined the increase in the live register for each of the exchanges in my area instead of the overall unemployment level? Will he agree that the main criterion for establishing the increase in unemployment — this is accepted by virtually everyone — is the increase in the live register figures. Does he know there has been an enormous increase in that figure during the past seven years while Fianna Fáil has been in power? I suppose the Minister cannot be concerned about this increase if he does not know about it, but has he had any intimation of the huge increase in the number on the live register during that seven year period?
I could repeat my previous reply in response to the Deputy's question. The Deputy said he asked a question on 8 March — I am not sure of the date — but I am sure this question related to specific employment offices in his area and the total registered——
I asked the number of people registered unemployed.
That is not what the Deputy asked here; he asked about the increase in unemployment.
That is the basis on which——
Listen to the answer.
The Deputy asked about the increase in unemployment, and I am giving him figures. I will make available to the Deputy the other information sought if he puts down a question.
I will do so the week after next.
We have dwelt on these two questions for over 25 minutes. This is not good enough.