There is a number of questions to the Minister for Justice concerning the attempting bombing of a public house and associated shootings which occurred in Dublin last Saturday. The Minister proposes to reply to the questions together. I will call on Deputies in the order in which they submitted their questions.
Private Notice Questions. - Attack on Dublin Public House.
asked the Minister for Justice the steps, if any, she is taking following last Saturday's murder and attempted bombing of a Dublin pub by the Ulster Volunteer Force which potentially could have caused hundreds of fatalities among innocent civilians and gardaí and if she will make a statement on the matter, in view of the widespread public disquiet arising from this indiscriminate attack.
asked the Minister for Justice the progress made by the Garda in their investigation into the murder of a man and the bomb attack on a pub in Pearse Street, Dublin 2 on Saturday last; in view of the claim of responsibility by the Ulster Volunteer Force the additional security measures, if any, being taken to prevent any further such attempts; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Justice arising out of the weekend murder and the attempted bombing of a Dublin public house, if she is satisfied that Garda resources are adequate to deal with subversive organisations and to protect the citizens of Dublin and other parts of the country from such outrages.
asked the Minister for Justice if she will make a statement on the security implications and the resourcing of the Garda following the placing of a bomb in a public house in Pearse Street, Dublin 2 and the associated shootings.
asked the Minister for Justice if she will give details of the preliminary Garda report into the paramilitary attack on a Dublin pub on Saturday, 21 May 1994; the implications on security in the State from threats of further attacks of this kind; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Justice if she will make a statement on the effectiveness of RUC and Garda liaison regarding the movements of loyalist terrorists and the improvements in information gathering and preventive security she intends to make, in view of the incalculable number of deaths that could have occurred if the loyalist attack on the Widow Scallan pub had achieved its intended potential.
I propose to take these Private Notice Questions together.
Successive Governments have condemned all terrorist acts irrespective of where, by whom or against whom they have been perpetrated. Likewise, the Government condemns last Saturday night's brutal UVF attack on a crowded public house in Dublin as a further act of mindless savagery of the kind which has deprived the communities on this island of the opportunity to live together in peace and harmony. The Government rejects any purported justification of this attack whether it was carried out in the pursuit of political ends or as a response to the violence of opposing paramilitary organisations.
The recent upsurge in paramilitary violence, which claimed the life of Mr. Martin Doherty in last Saturday night's attack, has claimed 32 other lives in Northern Ireland so far this year. I extend the sympathy of the Government to all the families who have suffered bereavement and also to those who have been injured as a result of this violence. The Government is determined to continue to work for an end to such violence so that other families will not have to endure the personal tragedy and loss which these families are now going through.
Before dealing with the particulars of last Saturday night's attack I must acknowledge that the Garda Síochána and the RUC have been alert to the possibility of a loyalist attack of this kind for some time and they have continually reviewed and updated their security arrangements in order to guard against any such attempt. However, as the tragic events of the past 25 years have demonstrated, it is not possible for the security forces to guarantee that each and every attack can be prevented. Nevertheless, I am satisfied that the Garda Síochána have constantly monitored the terrorist threat to the State and taken all reasonable measures commensurate with the varying levels of threat which have pertained at different times.
As to the attack itself I am informed by the Garda Síochána that at approximately 10.50 p.m. on Saturday, three men pulled up in the car outside the Widow Scallans public house in Pearse Street. Two of the men got out of the car and went into the foyer of the pub. On being challenged there, they fled the premises and, in so doing, fired a number of shots. Mr. Martin Doherty was killed in the gunfire and Mr. Paddy Burke received injuries to his neck and chest.
The Garda and emergency services were on the scene within minutes and while the victims were being attended to, a small explosion went off in a hold-all bag at the doorway of the public house. Subsequent examination of this bag revealed that it contained a quantity of commercial explosive which had been primed to go off. My understanding is that had the contents of the bag exploded as intended, many, if not all, of those in and outside the public house at the time would have been killed or injured.
The priorities of the Government and the Garda Síochána in the follow-up to this savage attack are to bring those who perpetrated it to justice and to ensure that all possible steps are taken to prevent a further attack of this kind. Yesterday, the Tánaiste and I took the opportunity to discuss the attack with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the occasion of the opening of the Shannon-Erne waterway. I received his assurance that the full co-operation of the RUC is being afforded to the gardaí in their investigation and that the current excellent level of security co-operation between both forces will be maintained and, where possible, enhanced in the ongoing effort to prevent terrorist outrages on both sides of the border.
Earlier today, I met the Garda Commissioner to review the progress of the Garda investigation into Saturday night's attack and the extent and appropriateness of the security measures in place to prevent a recurrence. It would not be appropriate for me to detail the Garda efforts in these respects. I am satisfied that all necessary action is being taken by the Garda authorities on both fronts as a matter of urgency. I assure the House that the measures being taken by the Garda Síochána to prevent further loyalist attacks on the community are both extensive and comprehensive. They involve a combination of Garda operational measures, co-operation with the business community and close and constant contact with the RUC authorities. These measures will continue to be kept under review at a senior level in Garda headquarters.
Saturday night's incident was a most serious one. The perpetrators had clearly intended to cause death and injury on a much larger scale. Their actions have caused many people in Dublin and elsewhere to be fearful for their personal safety. By way of reassurance to all concerned. I would point out that the security forces remain vigilant and alert to the terrorist threat and they will take — and they have the resources to take — whatever measures they deem necessary to meet it. The right course for the public at large is not to succumb to excessive fear or panic but rather to exercise a reasonable degree of care and vigilance in going about their normal business.
Does the Minister accept there is general public disquiet that the Garda Síochána is completely under strength and not in a position to deal effectively with an emergency in Dublin? It cannot cope with the serious crime problem in the capital city, never mind a loyalist bombing campaign. Does she accept that the Garda urgently needs to be brought up to strength? Is it a fact that, despite repeated warnings by the RUC chief constable and others and the previous planting of a bomb in Dublin, there was no overall contingency plan put into operation in the immediate aftermath of Saturday's attempted bombing?
I reject the allegations that the Garda cannot cope with the situation they faced last Saturday night or with general crime in Dublin and that they are under strength. Last December, following the recommendation by the Garda Commissioner that the strength of the force be maintained at 11,000 men and women, I got the approval of the Government for a package of £66 million which included the recruitment of 407 gardaí this year and 350 new recruits each year from 1995 until 1997 to maintain strength at what the Garda Commissioner thinks is the appropriate level. The second part of the Deputy's supplementary is not appropriate at this stage.
On the question of warnings from the RUC, it is no secret that for some time the Chief Constable of the RUC, Sir Hugh Annesley, has been saying at all the Anglo-Irish Conference meetings and restricted security sessions that it was not a question of if but when such an attack might take place in some part of the Republic. As a result, security measures were stepped up considerably by the Garda in co-operation with the RUC. It has been acknowledged publicly on a number of occasions by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and by the Minister for Security, Sir John Wheeler, that the level of security co-operation between the Garda and the RUC has never been better and the level of intelligence gathering the Garda get through the RUC and vice versa has never been at a higher level. This will continue to be the case.
Will the Minister agree that the warnings given by the RUC chief constable were repeatedly talked down by Government spokespersons, apparently in an attempt to reassure the public, and that those warnings were not taken seriously? If they were taken seriously why was it possible for this car to be driven through the city of Dublin, be identified by the Garda and be used in the planting of a bomb? Arising from her discussions during the past two days, does the Minister have reason to believe that the RUC will be successful in apprehending those who were responsible for the outrage on Saturday night and, if so, will this State seek their extradition so that they can stand trial here?
Every warning given by the RUC is taken extremely seriously both by the Government and the Garda. The high level of security co-operation and intelligence gathering co-operation between the Garda and the RUC has been acknowledged publicly.
I want to deal in particular with the second part of the Deputy's supplementary as this has raised a number of issues in the newspapers during the past 24 hours. The car in question was seen in Dublin by uniformed gardaí earlier on the evening of the attack. It was immediately checked with the RUC but the computer records did not show a very recent change of ownership of the car, which had been purchased in Lisburn, County Antrim, the day before the attack by a man who gave a false name and address. This meant, in effect, that there was no reason to suspect that the car was being used other than for a legitimate purpose.
On the question of Northern Ireland cars generally and the possibility of such cars entering the State quite freely, if one looks at Dublin city and my city one can see that in recent months, particularly during the past three or four months, there has been a huge increase in the number of Northern Ireland registered cars coming here. While this is a very welcome development, it poses difficulties. Gardaí are faced with making a decision to stop and search all Northern Ireland registered cars, regardless of the Border crossing they used to enter the State. I think Deputy Gilmore would agree that this would create chaos. They have to rely on their intelligence and the intelligence of the RUC in regard to suspect cars which might be travelling into the South. The level of co-operation has never been higher.
The Deputy asked if I hoped the RUC would be able to apprehend those who were responsible for this outrage. Of course, I hope it can apprehend these people. It has descriptions of the people seen in the car, which have been made available by the Garda, and evidence available on its own side about the movements of the car. A special investigation unit has been set up to deal specifically with this crime and if and when people are apprehended of course the State will seek their extradition.
The Minister referred to the level of co-operation between the Garda and the RUC and the assurance given by the Secretary of State that there will be full co-operation by the RUC. Will she confirm that the Garda will also have the full support of the Government in its attempts to obtain the resources it needs to deal with the crime problem generally and terrorist attacks in particular so as to defend life, limb and property? The Garda has laughable resources compared to those of the RUC and these should have been increased at a time when the chief constable of the RUC was giving public warnings of the possibility of this type of attack south of the Border. Has the Minister considered calling up retired gardaí to fill the existing 500 vacancies while additional gardaí are being recruited over the next 18 months or two years?
Given the public warnings by the chief constable of the RUC, what extra steps were taken in regard to security? The same night there was a Billy Joel concert in Dublin which was attended by many people from Northern Ireland. Were extra security measures put in place that night? Will the Minister give an assurance that she will give the Garda Commissioner and the Garda the same level of co-operation they get from the RUC and provide the resources necessary to defend this country and its institutions, restore law and order and prevent similar attacks?
I reject the implication in the Deputy's question that the Garda Commissioner and Garda Síochána are not getting full co-operation and support from the Government. I said in my initial response that the Garda has and will have the resources necessary to deal with the threat posed by terrorist attacks such as the one which occurred last Saturday night. At a time when stringent financial constraints are being implemented by the Government, I secured, with the support and help of the Government, a package of £66 million over and above the Department of Justice Estimate. This proves beyond any doubt that the Government is serious about providing the resources, equipment, etc. required by the Garda Síochána to tackle ordinary crime and the ever-present threat of terrorist violence such as we saw last Saturday night.
In view of her discussions during the past few days, has the Minister reassessed her view of the number of gardaí necessary in Dublin? The gardaí working in Dublin at present are under severe pressure. It is possible in situations such as this for a climate of fear to develop. Nevertheless it is important that people appreciate the dangers which exist and potential threats. What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that there is what I would term a knowledgeable state of alertness among the public, not unjustified fear? Does she have the resources to ensure that the appropriate message is given to the public in this regard?
On the question of alerting the public, the very successful neighbourhood watch scheme has brought gardaí into direct contact with communities throughout Dublin city. In addition, a business watch scheme was launched recently. This scheme was introduced mainly at the request of the Dublin Chamber of Commerce and the City Centre Business Association which felt that the Garda should give priority to supporting and encouraging businesses and recognising what they can do in terms of being vigilant about their property. The resources available to support that kind of effort have been increased this year.
I do not have the exact number of gardaí stationed in Dublin but it is well over 3,000, approximately 37 per cent of the total Garda force. The number of gardaí on the streets in Dublin was increased as a result of the Government's support for the civilianisation of the force which was put forward by the Garda Commissioner. That programme of civilianisation ensures that gardaí who to date were desk-bound have been released by degrees on the streets to engage in the type of operational duty for which they were expensively trained by the taxpayer.
Will the Minister's reassessment of State security include any measure to restrict or even prohibit the Provisional IRA organising functions in the city of Dublin, or anywhere else in the State because, as they are advertised in Provisional IRA booklets in the North, they pose a significant risk to life and limb of the citizens of Dublin and elsewhere? Will the Minister ask the Garda to oppose the renewal of licences for premises used by subversives to raise money for their evil activities?
I have no proposal in relation to banning functions such as that held last Saturday night. It is always important that a group organising functions, which may pose a threat to the lives of civilians, are very careful in relation to how they advertise them.
Will the Minister ask the Garda to oppose the renewal of licences for such establishments?
It is well known that the Garda have been extremely vigilant in relation to certain public premises used for particular purposes, when the functions held in them might pose a difficulty or security risk to members of the public. The Garda have taken the initiative and are vigilant when such licences come up for renewal in the courts. I assure Deputy O'Donnell that the Garda intend to continue that type of vigilance.
Was the pub involved ever the subject of an opposed renewal of licence?
I do not know but I will supply that information to the Deputy.
One gets the impression listening to the Minister that basically she is satisfied with the security arrangements. If so, does she agree with the Tánaiste who suggested on Sunday evening that there should be, in his words, a complete review of security? Will the Minister say whether that took place within the past 24 hours, or whether she has satisfied herself that there is no need for it? Is she concerned that Garda strength is 500 under the authorised number? With additional retirements from the Garda Síochána in the coming months as a result of new pension arrangements — which many had been waiting to avail of, and which are now in place — does she recognise that there is a lead-in time for further recruits to the force because of the very laudable provision for additional training and that the likelihood is, in the short term, that Garda numbers will fall? Will the Minister agree that if Garda resources are to be reallocated to the surveillance of potential subversives on this side of the Border, it means that the protection of citizens against conventional crime will be reduced, as no member of the force can be in two different places at the same time?
I said yesterday that the review of security arrangments had already begun. That review is being undertaken by the Garda Commissioner, most particularly the Assistant Commissioner with responsibility in the crime and security area. I met both those gentlemen this morning who gave me a full updated briefing on the events of last Saturday and on the various security measures being stepped up as part of that review. In relation to a special review, I should say that, as always, in every police force worldwide, there is continuous review of all the measures they take against crime, most particularly in this State against terrorist crime. That forms part of a continuous review procedure between the Garda and the RUC, which I am sure is how Members of this House would like to see such co-operation develop.
I am thankful for Deputy John Bruton's appreciation of the fact that, at a time of financial stringency, we succeeded in getting the extra money required for new recruits to the force and I accept his point that there is a lead-in time. When this matter was discussed with the Garda Commissioner he was strongly of the view that the retirement age of gardaí should be maintained at 57, the current retirement age, and was not supportive of an increase in that limit. An increase would be required if we did as Deputies Mitchell and Bruton suggested, which is that members of the Garda would not be required to retire at age 57 or indeed that members who had already retired at age 57 might well be called back in the lead-up period. I do not have any proposals in relation to that area.
Will the Minister say specifically whether a contingency plan was put into operation following the bomb attack last Saturday night? Will she confirm that the same organisation, less than a year ago, planted a bomb in a Telecom communications installation right beside Store Street Garda Station, not very far from where the car used in Saturday night's attack was found burned out; that this has given rise to concerns that members of that gang may already be based in Dublin? Does she agree that it is now all the more urgent, to allay public disquiet, that the Garda report and investigation into the 1974 car bombings in Dublin is published and action taken against those involved?
In relation to the last part of the Deputy's question, as he knows, I am very far advanced with the report into the bombings, it is with the Garda Commissioner at present. As soon as it is returned to me I intend to seek the co-operation of the Whips to allow us to debate it in this House.
Of course the Garda has a contingency plan. I do not think any former Minister for Justice in this House, or publicly outside it, ever said what that contingency plan is, nor do I intend to depart from that practice because it is a security matter. Indeed it would be very much in the interests of the paramilitaries and the terrorist organisations if the contingency plan or security measures the Garda might take over a period of time to deal with terrorist organisations were published. I said yesterday that Northern Ireland is the most policed part of western Europe. However, even where there is a supposed ring of steel around Belfast determined men of violence can penetrate it, plant a bomb and get away. Therefore, it is not fair to imply that the Garda have not been capable of securing this State, or its towns and villages against the possibility of a terrorist attack. It is ever vigilant; there is the highest degree of security co-operation between it and the RUC. They depend on one another for the high level of intelligence now available and I want that to continue.
Will the Minister confirm that there was a team of Garda Special Branch officers observing the pub on Saturday night, that they had left the scene some time before the bomb was planted and the shooting took place? Does she believe that loyalist paramilitaries have a safe house, or safe houses, south of the Border?
I have no evidence, nor did the Garda Commissioner or Assistant Commissioner give me any evidence today in relation to the second part of the Deputy's question, that there is a safe house on this part of the island for loyalist terrorists or paramilitaries.
In relation to the first part of the Deputy's question, I hope he will accept that it is not the practice for the Minister for Justice to comment on specific security or surveillance measures that may be in operation at any given time. I do not intend to depart from that practice.
Does the Minister agree that the logical conclusion to be drawn from her comments that the numbers of troops and RUC in Northern Ireland involved in this ring of steel which she argues has not prevented bombs going off there, is that if we reduced Garda numbers by 5,000, it would not make any difference? Surely the Minister should be able to inform the House that the figure of 11,000 she agreed with the Garda Commissioner is the basic minimum that should be available in defending the State against the activities of subversives and others? Following the warnings given by the RUC Chief Constable which he gave publicly — I wonder if he did so for some reason — will the Minister specifically inform the House what extra steps the Government took to protect people south of the Border?
Lastly, since it is very clear that there were members of the IRA at that function last Saturday night, will the Minister say whether any of the organisers of the event have been questioned about being members of an illegal organisation whose objective is to bring down the State?
I do not have specific information in relation to the final part of the Deputy's question. On Garda strength the recommendation made to me by the Garda Commissioner was that the strength of the force should be 11,000. Deputy Mitchell and a number of Government Deputies raised the question of an extension of the retirement age of gardaí from 57 to 60 on the basis of the lead-in period required for recruits. I put that to the Garda Commissioner who opposed such an extension and I accepted that recommendation.
On what steps were taken as a result of the warnings given by the Chief Constable of the RUC, the security measures being taken by the Garda Síochána since the warnings include the manning of static and mobile checkpoints at the Border and elsewhere in the State. The Garda authorities see much greater benefit in mobile checkpoints which carry an element of surprise for those involved in terrorist type offences. There has been a significant increase in traffic from Northern Ireland to this part of the country in the past four or five months and while that brings an added economic advantage to this part of the island, it creates difficulties for the Garda in relation to operational matters. The essential point is that the level of security co-operation between the RUC and the Garda has never been better and that will continue. If there are areas where the Garda Síochána need more resources they will be made available to them by the Government.
I ask the Minister to reassess her view in relation to Garda strength. Every survey carried out in Dublin shows that the public view is that the Garda is under resourced to deal with the complaints being made. People are satisfied with the initial follow-up to crime but not with the ongoing contact they have with the Garda.
On Garda operational matters, Garda strength and Garda presence on the street, there are three ways of tackling those issues. First, to recruit extra gardaí — which we are doing — and, second, by extending the civilianisation programme so that we do not have gardaí sitting behind desks or answering telephone calls in Garda stations when they could be more usefully employed on the streets. The civilianisation programme has been extremely successful and is continuing apace because there is Government support for it. Third, I hope in the autumn to introduce legislation to deal with the excessive amount of time that large numbers of gardaí spend in our courts on a daily basis waiting for cases to be called. The only way that can be changed is by legislation.
Is the Minister saying that the preliminary Garda report into the outrage on Saturday did not include any investigation by the Garda into the organisers of the event and that there has been no interrogation of those who organised the event? Does this mean that the Garda are turning a blind eye to the fact that the Provisional IRA is organising events in Dublin city? Is the Government, as well as pandering to the Provisional IRA in the North, now pandering to it here?
I reject the allegation that this Government is in any way pandering to a terrorist organisation such as the Provisional IRA, either here or in Northern Ireland. Any investigation of the organisers is a matter for the Garda and if and when they have evidence to suggest that members of a certain organisation were involved in organising the event they will not be slow in coming forward and taking whatever action is necessary. That was not part of the discussion I had with either the Garda Commissioner or the Assistant Commissioner this morning. We confined our discussion to the measures taken prior to the event, the event itself, the measures adopted since and what Government support is necessary for the Garda.
I wish to ask the Minister a number of questions in regard to surveillance of movements of known loyalist terrorists on both sides of the Border. Is the Minister satisfied that the RUC is engaging in sufficient surveillance of known members of the mid-Ulster cell of the UVF which apparently is responsible for this event? Is information from the RUC passed on quickly enough to the Garda Síochána to ensure that if such members are absent from their usual haunts in Northern Ireland that there will be a special alert for them if they appear on this side of the Border? In that context is the Minister satisfied with a situation where apparently a significant portion of the surveillance along the Border by the Garda is undertaken by uniformed, unarmed gardaí on their own in a patrol car? Is she satisfied that one person unarmed patrols are sufficient for dealing with these utterly ruthless killers who are willing to cross the Border to kill indiscriminately on this side of the Border? Is the Minister satisfied that the resources are available to put a sufficient number of gardaí in place to ensure that the information and surveillance is sufficiently close so that none of these people can move out of their normal haunts without it being known to the security forces reasonably quickly on both sides of the Border?
It is not true that the only level of surveillance, activity or checkpoints on the Border are by one unarmed Garda in uniform, in a patrol car.
I did not say it was the only one.
There is a mix of security measures in place. I would not like anybody to think that was the only level of security of surveillance. I reassured the Garda Commissioner this morning on any extra resources which may be necessary in this area of operation and that the Government would not be found wanting in providing those resources. He has reassured me that he and the Garda have sufficient resources to deal with this problem. In reply to Deputy Bruton's question as to whether the RUC are engaging in sufficient surveillance of the UVF, I am assured by the Garda Commissioner that they are and that that information is passed to the Garda in relation to known members of terrorist organisations, most particularly loyalist terrorist organisations, who may be leaving their normal place of activity and proceeding south. That information is immediately passed by the divisional commander of the RUC to the Garda who, in turn, are able to follow those individuals. There is a special alert system when such people move from one part of the country to the other.
Deputy Noonan (Limerick East) rose.
The House will agree that these questions have been dealt with adequately, if not extensively, but I will call Deputy Noonan for a final and brief supplementary.
(Limerick East): Can the Minister explain why the Tánaiste was constrained to call publicly for a review of security? Does she think the call was made on herself or on the Garda Commissioner? Will the Minister inform the House if the Tánaiste is still a member of the security sub-committee of the Cabinet and, if so, why would the Tánaiste not operate within——
The Minister is only answerable for her own portfolio.
(Limerick East):——the procedures of Government? We would all agree that the fundamental task of Government is the security of the State and its citizens.
The Tánaiste was perfectly within his rights in calling for a security review. He is the co-chairman of the Anglo-Irish Conference and attends the restricted security sessions of that body which take place once a month. He is privy, as is every member of the Government, to security measures that have to be taken on this side of the Border to deal with the terrorist threat that remains with us. In calling for the review, the Tánaiste was unaware that a review of all security measures in relation to this type of activity and the incident had begun in Garda Headquarters——
He is out of touch.
——on the direction of the Garda Commissioner and the Assistant Commissioner. The Tánaiste was operating within the procedures of Government. Deputy Noonan need have no worry in relation to any perceived difficulty he may see between the Tánaiste and me.
I will not deny Deputy Currie the opportunity to put a brief question.
Does the Minister agree that for many people this was not a surprise, rather that people were surprised it had not happened some time ago? Will she bear in mind that this was not a once off, given that the UVF now has commercial explosives? Will she also remember that the UVF, UFF or any other group will not operate under the same rules as the IRA in relation to attacks on the security forces in this jurisdiction? Given the need for vigilence I suggest that some informal arrangements should be made to advise publicans and hoteliers on what they should do to safeguard their clientele.
That is an important point. I have no doubt that the Garda is proceeding to make recommendations to business people, not just publicans, in this city and other towns close to the Border on the security measures they should take within their premises. There is also a need for extra vigilance. The RUC and the Garda have received warnings over a period of time that an incident such as this could happen. All the measures that can be taken have been taken by the RUC and the Garda. The level of security co-operation has never been higher.
What about attacks on the security forces?
That disposes of questions for today.