Jim O'Keeffe
Question:8 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice whether collection of fines and committal order debts is an effective use of Garda time; and the proposals, if any, she has for change.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Use of Garda Time.
At present, under the law, the Garda Síochána is the only agency which can act in cases involving the payment of fines and execution of committal orders whether for non-payment of fines or ordinary civil debts.
I would be concerned if an excessive amount of Garda time is being expended on this activity given the need for the maximum number of gardaí to be engaged on operational duties.
At the moment, I understand that about 1 per cent of gardaí countrywide are employed full-time in this area. That represents about 100 gardaí out of the total numbers in the force.
In line with a commitment in the Programme for Government, my Department is carrying out a general review of fines, which takes into account the various options that may be open to us to improve the situation. I shall announce any proposals which I have on the matter in the usual way.
Will the Minister accept that the level of crime here is horrendous, constituting approximately 100,000 serious crimes per annum? Will she also accept that we have had some horrible examples of crime recently, not least in her part of the country? In that context, will she accept that it is an unfair burden on the Garda to be involved in a matter which is peripheral to its main job, which is to prevent crime and detect persons involved in crime?
Prior to my reply to this question, people were probably of the view that thousands of gardaí — hundreds in each division — were involved in the collection of fines. It may come as a surprise to most people that only 1 per cent, approximately 100, of the total number of Gardaí are involved in the collection of fines. We are examining the system of fine collection and I have an open mind as to what should be done in this regard. A number of very important things should be done in relation to the payment of fines. The only provision at present is that a fine must be paid in full which, as the Deputy knows, can create major difficulties for many people in both urban or rural areas. Changes in the system of imposing fines would ensure greater collection. For example, we could adopt an attachment to earnings provision or collect fines in weekly or monthly instalments. I am examining the matter in the Department and I hope to have proposals by the autumn to deal with it. Such changes would reduce considerably the number of gardaí involved in fine collection at present.
Will the Minister accept that while there may be only 100 gardaí involved directly in this area many more are engaged at an administrative level in reporting, dealing with cheques and so on? Will she agree that this is an aspect of duty that gardaí should have no part in? Will the Minister accept that those 100 gardaí would be better employed in either preventing crime or catching criminals?
On other methods of collection, has the Minister examined procedures in other countries? Is she aware that in Northern Ireland the instalment procedure is in operation? Is she aware of the possibility of putting an attachment order on earnings or social welfare payments? Can we get action from the Minister to end what is a scandalous waste of Garda time?
As a result of examining figures for non-collection of fines, I initiated in the Department a review of the system of fine payments. We examined procedures across the water, in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. Deputies Gilmore, O'Donnell and Mitchell made representations and recommendations in the course of debates on the Justice Estimate and so on as to what might be done to improve the position. I am anxious that those improvements be introduced and I hope to be in a position in the autumn to make recommendations to the House in respect of changes that would bring about a major improvement in the collection of fines.
Is it not the case that approximately 14 per cent of all committals to prison are for non-payment of fines, although at any given time only 2 per cent of the prison population is made up of persons who have failed to pay fines? Does Deputy O'Keeffe not have a point in that the time of gardaí and prison officers is taken up with a system which should have a proper collection procedure from the initial stages and, in the case of default, assets seized? In other words, for non-payment of a TV licence, a television should be confiscated. Would it not be more beneficial to have this work carried out by sheriffs or an independent agency? I have always found the Garda to be humane in cases of poverty or changes in people's circumstances. We must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water when making changes. I am glad the Minister is reviewing this matter.
Deputy Mitchell put his finger on the issue involved. We cannot change the system overnight if it will impose further penalties on people. People are not sent to prison for non-payment of fines, they are sent for breaching a court order. While the Deputy is correct in saying that less than 2 per cent of the prison population at any time are there for breach of court orders, I am sure all Members would prefer if such people were not in prison for breach of a court order relating to non-payment of a debt or fine.
I accept that the Garda operate a humanitarian system and we do not wish to replace that system with one which will do the opposite. We have examined procedures in other countries and we want to introduce a system which will ensure that fines are paid into the State's coffers and at the same time releases precious prison spaces for criminals we want in prison.
I agree that the gardaí adopt a very human approach in this area and, indeed, counsel people to avoid committal to prison for non-payment of fines. Will the Minister confirm that the number of gardaí engaged in the collection of fines and committal order debts is higher than the number engaged in the juvenile liaison service?
As I do not have the figures before me I cannot answer the Deputy's question, but I will communicate with him on that matter.