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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Jul 1994

Vol. 444 No. 8

Estimates, 1994: (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Estimates which were moved by the Taoiseach on Thursday, 30 June 1994: Votes 1 to 25 inclusive, 30 to 45 inclusive, and Supplementary Estimate to Vote 30.

I welcome the opportunity to address the House on this debate. The Chair will be relieved to know that, unlike previous speakers on both sides, I do not intend to launch a personal attack on any Member of the House. I intend to proceed with matters important to my constituency and the nation. Unfortunately the Minister for the Environment has left but is represented by the Minister of State who I am sure will take a board some of my comments. I would draw the attention of the Minister of State to a number of environmental issues affecting my area. I welcome the extension of the urban renewal programme to many provincial towns including Mullingar. Urban renewal has a role in the development of derelict areas in many towns.

The Minister indicated that urban renewal projects must include some type of residential content. I would like further clarification on that. That provision can have a major bearing on the areas designated for urban renewal. For example an urban renewal submission for Mullingar on ten to 12 acres included an allocation of three acres by the county council. That site was not in need of urban renewal and should not have been designated as disadvantaged. Some buildings near the roadside could be called derelict but behind them is a six or seven acre site with full planning permission for a shopping complex with 19 shopping units. I cannot understand how a site with full planning permission for a shopping complex can be designated as disadvantaged. I have grave reservations about it being granted urban renewal status. In other area we have seen the damage done to retailers by the establishment of supermarket outlets that benefit from urban renewal. Kilkenny is a case in point. Many newspaper articles were written about a new development there that caused havoc for existing shopowners. Taxpayers money was used to enrich some of our richest families. The terms of the old urban renewal scheme enabled such people to write off millions of pounds in the first year of operation against profits from other developments. They received tax and rates relief on a sliding scale for ten years. If urban renewal status is granted to the site in Mullingar it could distort the shopping area and the new area could become the centre of the town. Will the site in Mulligar have to include a residential area? The submission to the Department conformed exactly with the outline of the buildings for the planning permission, which speaks volumes. If a residential content is required in this development it might help level the playing pitch. The requirement for residential content in urban renewal projects may pose a challenge to developers who wish to avail of urban renewal status for development sites. I look forward to the Minister announcing the residential content of the new urban renewal areas and how the scheme will be implemented.

The Minister outlined details of moneys allocated for water schemes in different parts of the country. In this context I draw the attention of the House to the fact that there is no water supply serving the small village of Ballymore, County Westmeath and the adjoining villages of Moyvore and Ballinacarrigy. A scheme was approved for that area and has been with the Department of the Environment for many years. One of the members of the county council said he joined it over ten years ago on foot of the need for a water supply for Ballymore. Governments have come and gone but, unfortunately, although the tender documents for this scheme have been with the Department for at least four or five years nothing has been done. This is very disappointing because Ballymore is probably unique in Europe.

Coursing meetings are held there.

Yes, I am sure the Minister attends. The village has a sewerage system but does not have a water supply which means that not even a small industry will come into the catchment area. I ask the two Environment Ministers here to try to expedite this scheme. It is probably too late for 1994 but perhaps they will use their influence for 1995. My colleague from Westmeath, Deputy Penrose, lives in a village that could also avail of the supply so perhaps Minister Stagg will ensure that this project is included for 1995.

(Wexford): I will have a word with Donie Cassidy.

He got everything he needed, including a fire station, and the honour of driving the Minister of State in his car.

Deputy Stagg has an interest in housing and, in fairness, has made good progress since he came to office. However, some things need to be changed, for example, the provision in the shared ownership scheme whereby somebody at work pays rent to the local authority for the local authority's share of their house. That is a decided disincentive to going back to work. If a person who avails of a shared ownership scheme is unemployed he makes repayments to the county council on £9,000 of a £20,000 house which, at present is approximately £18 a week. However, if that person gets a job, or if his wife goes back to work his repayments to the local authority will increase from £18 a week to about £32 a week. That is a built-in disincentive to going back to work and should be reviewed and eliminated from the scheme if possible, even though it is income related and operated on a sliding scale. Perhaps later in the year the Minister will bring forward proposals to amend the position.

On the educational front, a number of things should be mentioned at an end of year review. In fairness to the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, she has put much more resources into education than in recent years. The appointment of additional remedial teachers and extra help for children in special schools are worthwhile and a step in the right direction. However, remedial teachers who are serving a number of schools can be of only limited value. We must look at the type and quality of service we deliver to those schools. In my opinion — borne out by many educationalists — children who need remedial help will not benefit unless they get about two hours' help a week. However, many of the children in primary schools which have the service of a remedial teacher, get only one hour or less a week; it helps, but is not enough. We need a quality of service that is worthwhile and cost efficient so that children who need remedial help will get about two hours each a week. I hope that will be borne in mind.

I should like to refer to the terrible situation that pertains this year in regard to the numbers of students who can enrol for H.Dip. courses from next September. We have all been approached by quite a number of university graduates this year who wanted to study for a H. Dip., starting in September, but found that their applications were rejected. There was a substantial reduction in the number of places available this year, approximately 25 per cent on last year, which had a dramatic effect on the number of places available. About 800 students from UCD applied for 180 places, which meant that 620 had to be turned away, causing a major problem. It is something about which the Minister agreed to talk to the Higher Education Authority to see if any improvement could be made. I wonder if she is in a position yet to report back and tell us what progress was made on that front and if there are additional places for H.Dip. students. Many of those students had already approached secondary schools and made agreements with them to be taken on to do their teaching practice and their work for the coming year. Now they find they cannot get a place in the university.

Another aspect of the H.Dip. débacle is that many of the students who tried to enrol for those courses do not know why they were rejected and felt they did not get a satisfactory answer to that question. I met a girl recently who has a Master's Degree. She had applied to do the H.Dip. course and was rejected on the basis that others had better academic qualifications. I find that difficult to understand. There needs to be more transparency in the allocation of those places if there is to be such a dramatic cutback.

This morning the Minister mentioned areas for which she was responsible and improvements she had made during the year. She taunted the Opposition for asking for extra remedial teachers and improvements in various schools and at the same time blaming the Government and the Labour Party for spending too much.

How can we operate as an Opposition if we are not allowed query expenditure or encourage the Minister to spend more money? Major savings could have been made had the Minister adopted a different attitude in the Dunboyne school debacle, a matter that was raised many times in this House. The Minister found an ideological solution to the problem, ignored the wishes of many parents in the area and imposed a community college on them.

Negotiations have taken place in the meantime and changes have been agreed for a new school in Dunboyne. There will be a community college there but the rules in regard to the board of management, the way the school will be run, the appointment of teachers and budgeting, are those that govern a community school. Even though it will have the name community college, it will be a community school. The loser in this case will be the taxpayer because there will be an additional cost of £1 million due to lack of consultation with parents and the insensitive way the matter was handled. It is sad the Minister's ideological fix, which has been watered down to a great extent, will cost the taxpayer such an enormous amount of money. When the Minister asks where money can be saved, I instantly point to that area, among others.

On school amalgamations, we will not see the building of many more secondary schools as many existing ones, particularly in provincial towns, will be amalgamated. In some small towns there are two or three schools, but lack of pupil numbers in future will dictate that these schools be amalgamated. They will also need to be amalgamated to provide a full curriculum base for pupils. It is imperative that the Minister, and her colleagues in Government, adopt a comprehensive approach to school amalgamations and devise a format to ensure that consultation takes place with parents, teachers and the boards of management involved so that people will not be unhappy with the final outcome.

I wish first to place on the record the present position regarding TEAM at this critical time for the company. This House has debated the TEAM issue on several occasions over the past few weeks. We should note that there has been a consensus on the core issues of the crisis in TEAM. In particular, there is an appreciation by all sides of the House of the critical financial position of the company. There is also an acceptance that immediate action needs to be taken. There has been criticism of the Government's approach. We are, for party political reasons, being portrayed as being intransigent for the sake of being intransigent. We have been accused of being bloody minded and as adopting a take it or leave it approach in regard to the Labour Relations Commission's settlement terms.

I would remind the House that the LRC was only called in by my colleague, the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, because of the enormity of the crisis facing the company. These facts have been accepted by this House. The Minister had asked for an urgent inquiry into the company. The LRC, having found that the parties could not even agree on a common agenda, was left with no option but to propose settlement terms. My colleague, the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, sought and obtained Government approval for the compromise terms proposed by the LRC as the arbitrator in the dispute. The Government may not have liked all the terms but it accepted them in the spirit of compromise.

I emphasise once again that the LRC terms are the first and only the first step towards resolving the problems at TEAM. They are a necessary step, but they alone are not sufficient to ensure the survival of TEAM. The next steps must be ones in which everyone plays their proper part. I have already said that the process of managerial change has begun and must and will continue.

The LRC made recommendations under clauses 24 and 20 which recognised the potential of the trade union groups to make significant contributions to the survival and development of TEAM. I have given a commitment, on behalf of the Government that, once the LRC settlement terms are accepted, the proposals of the trade unions will receive the fullest and most professional assessment and will be implemented if they would contribute to profitability in the company. That is still the Government's position.

The LRC is meeting the TEAM trade unions and management today. I hope that, following these meetings, the trade unions will reappraise their assessment of the potential of the LRC report to solve this problem.

Traditionally Adjournment Debates afford this House an opportunity to review the state of the nation. The fact is that as an economy we are performing very well. I listened with astonishment yesterday as Deputy Bruton acknowledged that while our economy has "great potential to grow" this was, he said, "because between 1981 and 1989, under a Fine Gael led Government, and later under the Tallaght strategy, our public finances were painstakingly put back on a sound footing". It is often said that memories are short, but if Deputy Bruton expects anyone to believe that assertion he must think that the Irish people are suffering from collective amnesia. It is quite clear that Deputy Bruton never did have a great aptitude for facts or figures, but we will see if we can furnish him with enough to assist him avoid such silly assertions in the future.

During the period when the country last enjoyed the benefit of Deputy Bruton's talent for government there was no economic growth. Since 1987 we have been averaging in excess of 4 per cent growth per annum. As for the public finances being painstakingly put on a sound footing between 1982 and 1986, during that period the national debt, as then defined, doubled from £12.5 billion to £25 billion.

It quadrupled when Fianna Fáil was in power between 1977 and 1981.

The Fianna Fáil Government which inherited the mess in 1987 was assisted by the so-called Tallaght strategy in its struggle to put our public finances back on a sound footing. That strategy was implemented by Deputy Dukes before he was stabbed in the back by the man now claiming credit for that strategy.

The Minister was also involved in back-stabbing.

When Deputy Bruton last held office the current budget deficit was 8 per cent of GNP. The economic shambles over which Deputy Bruton so pathetically presided and of which, quite extraordinarily, he now seems very proud, occurred notwithstanding punitive tax rates. Do we remember when the standard rate of VAT was 35 per cent? Deputy Bruton should remember, as that was the rate applied under the last Fine Gael led Government. It is now 21 per cent. Do we remember when the standard rate of tax was 35 per cent? Deputy Bruton should, since that was the rate that applied when he last held office. It is now 27 per cent. Under Deputy Bruton, the great man for free enterprise, the top rate was 65 per cent; it is now 48 per cent.

What was the rate of inflation?

I will come to that.

Who brought it down?

Since 1987 and since Deputy Bruton was consigned by the electorate to the Opposition benches, we have established a consistent balance of payments surplus for the first time in our history. For the information of Deputy McGrath, inflation in 1993 was less than half the rate it was in 1986. Furthermore, net employment fell by 50,000 during the lifetime of the last Administration in which Deputy Bruton held office. Surprisingly, according to him it has risen by 56,000 since he left office in 1987.

For the first time in over two decades, there has been a consistent fall in the number of unemployed over the past number of months. This Government can point to the fact that in the short time since it took office there are 25,000 fewer unemployed.

The only thing Deputy Bruton got right was that our economy was performing well. If, at the start of 1994, we had set out to predict how the Irish economy would be performing by the middle of the year, I doubt that we could have guessed the level of progress which is now apparent. It now appears that for 1994, GDP will grow at over 1½ times the rate for 1993; export growth will similarly be well ahead of last year; investment will record its strongest performance of the 1990s so far; consumption will grow at over twice the rate of 1993; inflation will continue to lie well below the EU average; the rate of growth of total employment will be 2½ times that of 1993.

In summary, the economy is growing strongly. Private consumption and investment performance are well up on recent years. Fiscal discipline is being maintained and we are adhering to monetary constraints — in particular those required by exchange rate considerations.

I know perfectly well that unemployment remains the most difficult and most tragic problem confronting us. This Government does not pretend that the problem does not exist, nor will it try to sweep the problem under any public relations carpet by massaging the figures. If unemployment could be solved by Government expenditure applied without regard for the state of the public finances then the problem would have been solved during Deputy Bruton's stewardship when money was thrown at every problem and no decisions taken. The creation of new jobs and the maintenance of existing jobs are directly linked to viable and competitive production and services.

Deputy Bruton cast himself as the great map reader, leading Fine Gael like Mao Tse-Tung drove the Chinese on the long march to power, but this self-styled cartographer is more noted for turning political cartwheels, mixing metaphors and splitting infinitives, blustering and bellowing on the road to political oblivion. I see from his speech yesterday that the great rancher from Meath has discovered soccer and Southfork. And, while he may be more of a cattle man than an oil baron, JB has more than a few things in common with JR. The Ewings and the Irish electorate have learned the hard way to keep them away from the purse strings. And, whatever about JR's cowboy boots, Deputy Bruton is certainly unlikely to be trusted again with the children's shoes.

According to Deputy Harney, the Government is running scared. I suppose if your own house is on fire you might derive some satisfaction if the next door neighbour's lawn is not looking as manicured as usual. Some time ago I said of the Progressive Democrats, "if in doubt, leave them out". The Irish people did just that. This inquisition, posing as a political party, has become a tarnished brass ring of politically promiscuous opportunists. Targeting anyone they disagree with and subjecting them to vilification and lies, they are the Irish fifth column hangover of redundant Thatcherism. Deputy McDowell and his familiar, Deputy Harney, still cast their spells and repeat their vitriolic incantations but the Progressive Democrats dream is now nothing but a terrifying hallucination. They are in danger of disappearing up their own agenda. Nor is this surprising. Conceived in hatred of one man, impregnated from the outset with bitterness, born in an agony of treachery and deceit, nurtured on an insatiable diet of political blood-letting and ultimately destroyed in a flurry of political fratricide — that is the history of the Progressive Democrats. How long more do we have to listen to Deputy McDowell and his acolytes whine endlessly on about their views of ethics in Government? How long more do we have to endure the sermonising of political fundamentalists who have breached every commandment that they have laid down for others?

Remember when Deputies O'Malley and Molloy renounced their pensions? It was a popular move and it was loudly trumpeted. I do not recall, however, a press release from the Progressive Democrats announcing that Deputies O'Malley and Molloy had signed themselves back on the payroll. Remember when the Progressive Democrats were going to abolish the Seanad and thereby save the taxpayer the costs of the Upper House? That, too, was loudly trumpeted. Of course, the Progressive Democrats had no Senators in those days. As soon as Progressive Democrats Senators became a viable possibility, the policy was dropped and the pay cheques were taken.

Remember when the Progressive Democrats were formed on the basis that the then leader of Fianna Fáil could never be trusted to hold high office? The drubbing they took at the hands of the electorate and the possibility of getting into office soon sorted out their principled objections on that score.

Remember when the Progressive Democrats preached financial rectitude, that is in everyone's constituency except their own? Remember when Deputy O'Malley had no difficulties with any hospital closures until the pruners arrived in his own constituency and Barrington's Hospital was closed? That closure was, of course, different — after all, Barrington's Hospital was in Deputy O'Malley's backyard, as it were. That, of course, was when we renamed them the "Parochial Desocrats".

Remember when the Progressive Democrats were against dual mandates and double jobbing? At my last count Deputy McDowell was a full-time barrister, a part-time Deputy in this House and a semi full-time journalist. That is not double jobbing — it is treble jobbing.

Remember when Deputy O'Malley retired from the Progressive Democrats leadership? He told us he was not going to be an MEP. He was right. I understand there was a query about whether he applied for his costs to the tribunal. I have here transcript No. 22 of 15 July 1993. His counsel, Mr. McGuinness, stated:

On behalf of Mr. O'Malley, Chairman, I would submit there are sufficient reasons for rendering it equitable that the Tribunal make an order pursuant to the Section awarding Mr. O'Malley the whole of his costs for representation at the Tribunal, and I should say at the outset that the order sought is against the State and not against any other party.

No amount of wriggling or messing by Deputy Michael McDowell and others can get around that fact in the record of the tribunal's proceedings.

We do not mind if they apply for costs just as everybody else. That is a matter for the individual, but we do not like the Deputy denying that he did so. Such a catalogue of broken promises, self-serving explanations——

The Minister does not know anything about broken promises?

——ethical U-turns and downright disingenuousness has not been achieved by parties represented in this House for almost 70 years. The Progressive Democrats have achieved it in less than ten years.

Ask the people in Shannon about broken promises.

One would think they would have the decency at least at this stage to shut up about everyone else's ethics.

Where the Progressive Democrats are concerned it is not so much a question of beholding the mote in the next man's eye while failing to consider the beam in their own but rather one of failing to consider the entire timber yards they have assembled in both eyes.

We have recognised that a key determinant of the success of any economic policy is the capacity to deal with the reality of the modern competitive global economy. I have no doubt that the figures I quoted at the outset of my speech reflect the effectiveness of the economic policies pursued by this Government. At the end of the day, facts speak for themselves. I am also confident that with hard work and determination on the part of all of us on the Government side of the House, the success we have had to date will be a forerunner of much greater progress in the longer-term.

The office of the Tánaiste has had a key role in the development and implementation of policy over the past 12 months. Apart from the provision of advice and briefing to me on all policy matters, the office has specific responsibility for monitoring the implementation of the Programme for Government.

The office has its own legislative programme arising from the Programme for Government commitments to broadening our democracy. It is responsible for funding the National Economic and Social Forum and liaision between the forum and Government. The office also participates actively in the Central Review Committee for the Programme for Competitiveness and Work, the Interdepartmental Committee for the Coordination of EC affairs, the Interdepartmental Policy Committee on Local Development, the Co-ordinating Group on the Strategic Management Initiative and a number of other interdepartmental committees.

The Ethics in Public Office Bill, which has recently been given a Second Reading in the House, is a key element of the Programme for Government. As the matter has already been well debated in the past week, I do not intend to dwell on its detail. To me, however, the Bill represents, in a concrete, and public way, my personal commitment, and that of the Government, to openness, transparency, and greater public accountability in the way in which public business is conducted. I am satisfied that the Bill will put in place the ground rules for the identification and resolution of any conflicts between the personal interests of all those in public life or employment, and the broader public interest. Democracy will have been well served when this Bill is on the Statute Book in a short period.

As another key part of our efforts to bring greater transparency and openness into public life, the office is also considering the issue of freedom of information. Draft proposals on the matter are being developed in the office with a view to bringing them to Government for its consideration.

The office has responsibility for liaison with and funding the National Economic and Social Forum. The forum embodies a new concept of partnership in public affairs and its main aim is to forge a consensus on economic and social issues, with a major focus on measures to tackle unemployment. The forum brings together Members of the Oireachtas, the social partners, namely, unions, employers and business interests and farming organisations, and representatives of women's organisations, the unemployed, the disadvantaged and other groups who traditionally have been outside the consultative process.

In little over a year since its establishment, the forum produced four excellent reports and I understand that a further one will be published shortly. The forum has had a major input into the Programme for Competitiveness and Work and in the ongoing development of the local development programme. The Report on Ending Long-Term Unemployment, published by the forum yesterday, will make an important contribution to policy formulation on this crucial issue.

I acknowledge the commitment and the tenacity of all forum members and the work they have done in the forum to date. I also acknowledge the part played by Members of this House from all parties in the forum's work. I hope they found this unique exercise in participation and consensus a rewarding experience.

The office of the Tánaiste also played a strategic role in developing and advancing the local development programme which forms part of the National Development Plan. The local development prográmme will focus, in particular, on communities where chronic unemployment spans the generations and is associated with multiple disadvantage. The programme will build on the work being done in such communities to fight these problems and will bring together all the key partners, local and national.

Local needs will be identified and met through the provision of training and work experience opportunities for the unemployed, and enterprise, education and community development initiatives. A major concern will be to ensure that State agencies develop local strategies to meet local needs, so that training and other programmes are not simply designed at headquarters and imposed on the local community. We are determined to bring these communities back from the edge, to where they can play a full part in creating a better life for themselves and their children. The office's involvement was crucial to the development of this very important initiative and is a concrete illustration of the valuable strategic role which the office can and will play in the future.

The substantial achievements made by this Government so far are due in no small measure to the new structures that we have put in place and the office of the Tánaiste is playing a central role in this ongoing process.

The social and economic reform we introduced in the past year is unprecedented in the history of the State. Unemployment is falling, all the economic indicators are positive and sensitive social issues which for so long were left "hanging in the wind" have been successfully addressed. I assure the House, however, there is no sense of complacency in Government. I am all too well aware that in boom times "the haves" reap the greatest share of increased wealth and "the have-nots" are generally left further behind. I am determined to ensure that this Government avails of every opportunity to reverse this trend.

My wish is that by the end of this Government's time in office, everyone will have experienced in a very real and positive way, a difference in the type of society in which they live and in their economic well-being. I believe we are well on the way to achieving this goal with the work that has been done since the formation of this Government.

In closing this debate, it is appropriate to mention a number of broad themes that have dominated the past few months, and to look forward to the future.

I have been impressed by the energy displayed by the Opposition Members in the last few days, I was beginning to despair that we would ever again see an active and coherent Opposition, because its performance has been so bad.

That is not true.

I welcome Deputy Kenny back to the House.

Deputy Kenny is rarely absent from the House.

The Tánaiste, without interruption.

I was not as far away as the Tánaiste.

The Deputy will get his chance in about 15 years' time.

However, the personal abuse which has characterised much of the performance of the Opposition Deputies is a very poor substitute for critical examination of issues before this House. If I am to judge by the speech of Deputy Bruton yesterday, for example, he has now taken to having his policies formulated by malicious and untrue gossip columns.

I am glad, if his recent actions are anything to go by, that he has undergone a deep and, I hope, lasting conversion to the cause of the semi-State industry. As I watched his performance over the past few days, I have to admit that I found myself seriously wondering whether this was the same Deputy Bruton with whom I had many battles in the past over issues like Irish Steel, Dublin Gas, and the National Development Corporation. Could this new and caring Deputy Bruton be the same man as the one whose first response to any public sector crisis in the mid 1980s was "Close it down as fast as you can", and if that did not work, his second response normally was "Sell it off to the highest bidder"?

Deputy Harney's contribution was equally revealing. She recently spoke approvingly of compulsory work for everyone on social welfare but her attitude to the public sector seems to be new. At least Deputy Bruton changed his mind a dozen times on the issue — Deputy Harney has always been consistently, if not violently, hostile to the whole concept of the public sector. Her crocodile tears now will not fool anyone.

Let nobody be under any illusion — the Labour Party is and remains totally committed to an efficient, viable semi-State sector, which can and ought to be, as it was in the past, an important focus of sustainable development in our economy. The Labour Party's interest is to grow these companies. To achieve this, however, will means a lot of hard work by all concerned — the Government, management and the staff and workers in all these organisations.

The modern world of free trade and international competition means that State enterprises cannot be sealed off from the rest of the economy, or from widespread and often painful change that, in many cases, has to occur in response to market and technological developments. We cannot solve the problems of State enterprise, or create the basis for their future expansion and development merely by throwing money at them, although significant cash injections, as in the case of £175 million for Aer Lingus, are sometimes essential.

The difficulties facing TEAM Aer Lingus and Irish Steel are cases in point. We are determined to do everything in our power to save the maximum number of jobs in those companies and, if possible, to make them viable for the long term. No Government can do that alone. It means hours of difficult negotiation and often painful sacrifice. These are decisions that cannot be shirked, and no intimidatory tactics will force us to back away from decisions necessary for the future.

The future depends on the right decisions being taken now. We have to sort out the mandate for State companies in terms of the relationship between Government, boards, management, trade unions, and workforce in flexible and innovative ways that assist the commercial survival of the enterprise. We have no interest in formulae that are only concerned with ambitious, politically motivated directors and managements to increase their personal rewards, as in the privatisation agendas of the past.

The neglect of many of the semi-State enterprises in recent years is at the root of present troubles. The Labour Party bears no responsibility for that neglect. We are entitled to demand for the future that the managements of State companies will face the consequences of their own ineptitude.

No longer can we put up with excuses from bad management nor allow it to continue — it has no place in an open economy such as ours. We want and demand competence, prudence and responsibility from those who have been entrusted with the State's assets and the future of their staff. Second-rate management is no longer good enough.

Innovation and change are the way of the future. Competition in an increasingly open environment leaves no room for complacency. There is no semi-State company that can be guaranteed an easy ride. Our record has been one of consistent support for public enterprise. Our pledge is to maintain that support, to enable public enterprise to continue to play a dynamic role in the development of the economy as it has done since the 1930s.

I want now to say a few words about the conflict in Northern Ireland, the resolution of which remains the top priority for our Government. Earlier this week, I took the opportunity to brief the Government in detail about the intensive work that has been undertaken over recent months, by officials working under the direction of Sir Patrick Mayhew and myself, and about the detailed discussions that have taken place between the two Governments. At my suggestion, the Government has now put in place structures to carry this work forward in a detailed way with a view to, hopefully, being able to present the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister with a package of proposals for consideration when they next meet.

These proposals will not represent a solution to the Irish problem. They are not intended to. There can be no deep and lasting solution to our problems until men and women of goodwill, representing all shades of opinion on this island, are prepared to sit down together without pressure or coercion and reach compromises with each other. The compromises involved will mean both traditions being prepared to trust each other for the first time in generations. More than that, it will mean both traditions being prepared to make sacrifices in order to remove threats and perceived threats from each other.

The work that we are doing through the liaison group is designed to help set an agenda for that process. It will provide clear evidence of the commitment of both Governments to countenance deep changes, at both the institutional and constitutional level, if those changes will help, once and for all, to place the situation in Northern Ireland onto a new footing. We must arrive at a point where both traditions in Northern Ireland can live with each other and with an agreed definition of the future. The sooner we start that process the better.

No more than any other Deputy, I have no knowledge of when the beef tribunal report will be published or what it will contain. I was the first Member of this House to call for the establishment of the beef tribunal. Throughout its life, I co-operated with the tribunal to the best of my ability. Contrary to the snide innuendo of some, I have never withdrawn evidence from the tribunal and I have never withdrawn the allegations I made in this House which were investigated by the tribunal. There are no circumstances under which I, or any other member of the Labour Party which I lead, will seek to hide from, or walk away from, the implications of the report of the tribunal, whatever they might be. That report will be dealt with in a completely open and transparent way, and it will be dealt with in this House. It was this House which established the tribunal and this House has an absolute right to consider the report and to decide on the actions necessary as a result of its publication. Both I and the Labour Party will play a full and open part in those deliberations and we will not shirk whatever decisions are necessary.

Pull out of Government.

The Members of this House who sit on the Opposition benches have used this debate, as is their right, to concentrate on the difficulties facing Government, they have not wasted any time by praising, or even acknowledging, the dramatic improvements that have taken place in the economy, on the jobs front or in the areas of health, education, social welfare, housing, the arts, overseas development aid, the rights of people with a disability and issues of social reform — to name just a few areas where the Government had success. However, these achievements are real. They are being felt where it matters. The Opposition may choose to ignore the reality but people affected by change know the effect that Labour's participation in Government has brought about. The day the Labour Party decided to go into this Government, I told the delegates in the National Concert Hall that there would be difficult times and hard decisions. There is work to be done by the Government and that work will go on. None of the abuse of the Opposition, none of the sneering from the armchair critics, none of the malicious campaigns and none of the intimidatory tactics will bring that work to an end. We intend to go on making a difference and ensuring that the issues which are most important will be dealt with openly and honestly.

As the debate has concluded I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of 30 June: That the Estimates for the Public Service Votes 1-25, inclusive, Votes 30-45, inclusive, and the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 30, Marine, for the year ending 31 December, 1944 be agreed to.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 50; Níl, 34.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Bhreathnach, Niamh.
  • Bree, Declan.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Brian.
  • Fitzgerald, Eithne.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Hughes, Seamus.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kavanagh, Liam
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Seán.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, James.
  • Broughan, Tommy.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • McDowell, Derek.
  • Moffatt, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Penrose, William.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.

CLASS="CP">Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Dukes, Alan M.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Fitzgerald, Frances.
  • Flanaggan, Charles.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • O'Donnell, Liz.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
CLASS="CP">Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
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