Vol. 447 No. 11
1 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the British Prime Minister; and the arrangements and timing for the publication of the Joint Framework Document for talks on Northern Ireland. [1141/95]
2 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if he will report to Dáil Éireann on his meeting with the Sinn Féin President, Mr. Gerry Adams; and the plans, if any, he has for further meetings with that party. [1142/95]
3 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, he has to meet with representatives of the Ulster Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party; if he will seek to persuade them to participate in the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1143/95]
4 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach the contacts or meetings, if any, he has had with representatives of the Progressive Unionist Party and the Ulster Democratic Party; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1144/95]
5 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if a date has been arranged for a meeting between himself and the British Prime Minister to discuss the Joint Framework Document. [1154/95]
6 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach when he will hold a formal summit with the British Prime Minister to launch the Joint Framework Document. [1460/95]
7 Mr. B. Ahern asked the Taoiseach his views on whether the question of the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons should be conducted in parallel with political talks rather than being a precondition for participation in them. [1462/95]
8 Mr. R. Burke asked the Taoiseach if he will lift the state of emergency as promised by the last Government. [1466/95]
9 Miss Harney asked the Taoiseach if the Government maintains that arms must be verifiably decommissioned as a precondition for the involvement of Sinn Féin and loyalist political parties in substantive talks on the future of Northern Ireland. [1146/95]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, together.
I had a very good meeting with the British Prime Minister, Mr. John Major, on 20 December last. The holding of the meeting so soon after my appointment as Taoiseach underlined the determination of our two Governments to consolidate and advance the peace process.
In the course of our meeting, we reviewed developments in the formulation of the Joint Framework Document. Good progress has been made since then. Notwithstanding the complexities and sensitivities involved, I hope all remaining issues will be resolved in the near future. The timing of my next meeting with the British Prime Minister will be determined in that context.
I would like to take this opportunity to reassure both Nationalists and Unionists that the Irish and British Governments are not, in any way, planning to impose a political settlement in the absence of political agreement and popular consent. The Joint Framework Document, when completed, will represent the understanding of the two Governments on the parameters of a fair and equitable settlement. It will form the basis for a process of detailed negotiations involving the two Governments and the political parties in Northern Ireland. The final outcome of those negotiations will be put to referenda North and South. Our undertakings in that regard should provide both the Nationalist and Unionist people on this island with the necessary reassurance regarding their political future.
The British Prime Minister and I discussed at our meeting a number of other important issues relating to the consolidation of peace, including the decommissioning of arms and explosives held by paramilitaries on both sides. It is accepted by all that the weapons issue will have to be addressed if full normality is to be restored. The Government's position, and indeed that of the British Government as stated last week by the Minister of State Mr. Ancram, is that the decommissioning of weapons is not a precondition to participation by Sinn Féin in all-party talks. The positions of some other parties, however, would suggest that progress on that issue is required in advance of such all-party talks. I welcome the progress made to date in exploratory talks with the British Government. The question of arms is a real problem, and one that must be worked at steadily and with patience.
The nature of the peace process requires that progress be made in many other areas as well. As part of our efforts, the Government is committed to lifting the State of Emergency which has existed since 1 September 1976. I hope shortly to place a motion before both Houses of the Oireachtas to give effect to this.
On the question of meetings with political parties, I had a preliminary meeting with the Sinn Féin leader on 21 December last. We dealt in a general way with a number of issues and reaffirmed our commitment to do all that is necessary to maximise the potential of this new era. I look forward to holding full meetings soon with representatives of the SDLP, Sinn Féin and Alliance parties. I have had numerous informal contacts with all these parties at the Forum.
The Government is committed to the development of dialogue with representatives of the Unionist community. I have not made any formal requests for meetings with Unionist leaders, but I will do so when I judge the time to be most appropriate. My door is always open to them or to any other party in Northern Ireland, who might wish to discuss any matter with me. This was the case with the previous Government and I regard it as the wisest policy in present circumstances.
I have received a number of communications from prominent members of the Unionist community, and I am, therefore, well aware of their concerns, as well as those of the Nationalist community. After completion of the Joint Framework Document, I hope the opportunity will arise for a full process of negotiation, so that the Northern Ireland parties and the two Governments can work together towards a deep and lasting accommodation.
Regarding participation by the UPP and DUP in the important work of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, Deputies will be aware of the various outreach efforts being made to accommodate Unionist viewpoints. The Government fully supports those efforts. While the matter is one essentially for the Forum, I will do anything I can to encourage participation by representatives of the Unionist community.
I will call Deputies in the order in which their questions appear before me on the Order Paper. Deputy Mary Harney.
The Taoiseach took nine questions together. I remind him that on 24 March last year he objected to the then Government taking six questions together. He had many strong things to say then so perhaps he should check the record.
Will there be two documents? Will there be a separate document from the British Government in addition to the Joint Framework Document and, if so, what is the function of each document?
Yes. The British Government has already indicated its intention of publishing at the same time a document in regard to internal structures.
To allay fears in Northern Ireland and to stop scaremongering, will the Taoiseach confirm that the Government is not seeking joint authority but North-South institutions with Executive powers? Will the Taoiseach spell out what he understands to be the difference between joint authority and North-South institutions?
The provisions in the framework document involve cross-Border institutions which, in some instances, will have Executive powers. The detail concerning them will be set out in the framework document when it is published. I would not wish to prejudge or pre-empt the agreement between the two Governments on that document by making any further elaborations at this stage. A number of interpretations are being placed on various words like "joint authority", "Executive authority" and so forth and I believe it would be best for me not to become involved in trying to provide dictionary definitions at this stage because it would not be particularly helpful. The Governments are putting together a framework document which will then be a framework within which all the parties in Northern Ireland — and the Governments — will enter into discussion with a view to reaching agreement.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that any such Executive bodies will only get part of their power in relation to the Northern side from a devolved Government in Northern Ireland, that there would not be any imposed powers with such bodies?
The bodies will be accountable to a Northern Ireland assembly and to Dáil Éireann. The arrangements for the establishment of the bodies will be set out in the framework document. These arrangements will then be discussed with all the parties and nothing will happen until we have gone through that process of discussion fully.
I thank the Taoiseach for his lengthy reply. I wish to ask him some questions on two or three aspects of it. When the Government effectively broke up on 16 December it was estimated it would take approximately one month to complete the framework document. From November through to December I know that very little was achieved in this regard. Will the Taoiseach accept that nerves are becoming frayed and while it is important now to hasten the completion of the document — provided a satisfactory agreement can be reached — will he be a little clearer on the progress that has taken place over the past five weeks? Also, does the Taoiseach accept that a satisfactory and balanced constitutional accommodation is critical to maintaining a national consensus, particularly bearing in mind the extreme sensitivity of this issue for nationalists? I believe nationalists have at all times made it clear that they value, above all else, their birthright and I would like the Taoiseach's views on that matter.
I agree we should publish this document as quickly as possible and that is the objective of the Government. It is true that a number of statements of concern have been made in recent days about the contents of the document. These statements have been largely inaccurate. I believe the fears engendered by them have been substantially allayed by statements by the Tánaiste and the British Prime Minister and I reiterate what the Tánaiste said in that regard. I agree it is important that the framework document is balanced and recognises the birthright of both communities in Northern Ireland. I assure the House it is the objective of this Government, as I have no doubt it was of the previous Government, to achieve just such a balanced framework document.
I welcome what the Taoiseach said today on the decommissioning of arms and the fact that this will not be considered a precondition. However, will he agree it was wrong for the British Minister for Agriculture to say that fisheries would be excluded from the bodies to be proposed by the joint framework document and that he was pre-empting its contents without any proper authority or consultation? Will the Taoiseach assure the House that this is not the negotiating position of the Government? We have noted in recent days that both Northern Ireland fishermen and John Taylor would not be against — and probably would be in favour of — closer co-operation on fisheries and that the Lough Foyle Fisheries Commission, set up in 1952, was a model of the kind of which Mr. Waldegrave was not aware. I ask the Taoiseach for his assurances that these tactics are not in line with the Government's negotiating position.
I do not want to get involved in cross-channel argumentation on a matter of this kind when so much good work is being done. The two Governments are converging, rapidly I believe, on an agreement around a framework document. It would not be accurate to say, however, that any subject is excluded from the possible subject matter of a cross-Border institution but it is important to point out that, in so far as the framework document is concerned, it is simply setting out a framework within which agreement can subsequently be reached, not just on the precise modalities of such cross-Border bodies but also on the subjects to be covered by them. That is the situation and nothing, fisheries included, is excluded from the possible remit of a cross-Border body. I strongly agree with Deputy Ahern's remarks about the valuable and unsung work being done in the fisheries area by the Lough Foyle Fisheries Commission, which is a good model of practical co-operation and which I believe was suggested originally by a Stormont Administration.
I welcome the Taoiseach's confirmation that it is the intention to bring a motion before the Houses shortly to remove the state of emergency and I believe this has important symbolism. Will the Taoiseach also agree that it would be symbolic if the British Government withdrew its troops to barracks in the North which would help consolidate the peace process which has now been in place for almost five months? It is important that the Taoiseach encourages the British Government to do that.
I am happy to accept the Deputy's welcome for my intention to remove the state of emergency. I welcome the decisions taken recently by the British authorities to eliminate daytime patrolling by their military personnel in major urban areas in Northern Ireland. I hope that as peace is further consolidated, other subsequent steps to reduce the visible military presence can be taken but I respect the need to do this in a balanced and prudent way. Any representations that I believe need to be made on that subject will be made and any relevant views from community interests in Northern Ireland in regard to that matter will be most welcome and will be acted upon by me, in so far as possible, as promptly as I can.
In his meeting with Mr. Adams, did the Taoiseach ask him to take a strong stance against punishment beatings?
Yes.
The Taoiseach has given a clear answer as to his views about preconditions and the decommissioning of arms, but will he confirm that it is the Government's view that Sinn Féin must be admitted on the same basis as anybody else to whatever talks take place?
That is what we are working towards. However, it is fair to say a number of other parties in Northern Ireland are not happy to sit down on the same basis with Sinn Féin as they would with other parties until such time as the arms issue is dealt with. It is only realistic to take account of the stated position of other parties on this matter — I refer particularly to Unionist parties whose views have a legitimacy and are entirely comprehensible from their standpoint. If we are to have meaningful talks all the relevant parties must be happy about the basis on which they are taking place. It is not just a matter of the Irish and British Governments ordaining the basis on which such talks will take place.
Is the Irish Government being consulted about the second document which relates to the internal administration of Northern Ireland? Is it being consulted to an equal extent about the consultation process afforded in respect of the main framework document?
We are not being consulted on that matter — that is a matter for the British Government. However, we are involved in the framework document which sets out a framework within which any such institutions mentioned in the second paper would operate.
Accepting what the Taoiseach stated about parties other than the British Government, would he accept that much more constructive progress would be likely on the arms issue if it is not turned into an excuse for keeping Sinn Féin from the negotiating table? Will the Taoiseach outline to the British Government and others to whom he will speak that the role of Sinn Féin at the Forum has been constructive, that it has created no difficulties but has made it clear that its participation in talks is something to which it is fully committed?
I certainly accept that. My discussions with Sinn Féin both at the Forum and elsewhere confirm my view that its firm intention is to support the peace process in every way; but it is only fair that we in this House should understand the perspective of the Unionist community. They and their representatives have been at the receiving end of violence over the last 25 years. They are not the only ones, but they have been at the receiving end of much more violence than we have been used to in this part of Ireland. It is understandable that after a period of only five months Unionists and their representatives still have huge concerns about the existence of substantial stores of arms, many of which can only be used for offensive purposes and which are not capable of being used for defence. I recognise that Sinn Féin and the IRA do not intend to use them, but it will take some time to convince the Unionist community and their representatives of that and we must be realistic about it. We must endeavour to put pressure on all of the parties to bring their positions closer in this long-standing disagreement. We must not simply say that we intend to apply pressure to only one group or party.
I had hoped we might proceed to other questions to the Taoiseach. Shall we entertain Deputy Mary Harney.
With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, six of the nine questions were in my name. Usually when a small party looks for speaking rights here we are told about proportionality. When the numbers are in our favour, proportionality should also apply.
I should like very much to think that is is so, Deputy. That is the wish of the Chair.
Would the Taoiseach accept that there is now clear evidence that a voting pact has been agreed between the British Government and the Official Unionists? Does he see that as having any effect on the commitment of the British Government to finding a political solution?
The answer to the first part of the question is no. I have no reason to doubt the commitment of the British Government to bring the process forward.
No pact?
I believe, from my meeting with the British Prime Minister, that he is determined to bring the present phase of our discussions to a successful conclusion, and he is deeply committed to an overall settlement. Naturally enough, the British Government must make arrangements to have its programme passed in its parliament, and we can all understand that. There is no evidence of any pact.
Does the Taoiseach agree that a complete and permanent cessation of violence is the key issue in the discussions and that it would be dangerous if others try to treat either Sinn Féin or the Nationalists as second class citizens? The Taoiseach should at all times, indicate that a permanent cessation of violence is the key issue and should not allow people to try to find ways of keeping Sinn Féin or their representatives out of the talks.
Nobody is trying to do that. The concerns expressed by Unionist representatives about the decommissioning of arms are genuine. I do not think they are designed for any artificial stalling purpose and I accept them on that basis. However, I disagree with them because I believe we could make more progress towards our common objectives if that were not an issue being used by anybody as a "blocking mechanism" at this stage. The object of the Joint Framework Document, as in the case of the Anglo-Irish Agreement and the Sunningdale Agreement, was to establish the principle of equality of citizenship, that each community's aspirations in Northern Ireland are of equal value and deserve equal respect. That is the underlying principle in all we are trying to do and it was the underlying principle in what the previous Government tried to do. It is also a view shared by the British Government and, in different ways, by all the parties in Northern Ireland. It is simply a question of finding a common way of expressing that shared belief.
As little has been written about the internal document, does the Taoiseach not agree that the vote of the British House of Commons has now become somewhat clearer and that it is an appeasement to Unionists in Northern Ireland to the facilitate them in accepting the Joint Framework Document?
I would not take that view. The statement made by the British Prime Minister about his intentions to publish a document in parallel with the publication of the Joint Framework Document was made many months ago long in advance of any of the difficulties last week to which the Deputy has referred. There is no necessary connection between the two.
It is hoped that we will have the Joint Framework Document within the next month or so. Could the Taoiseach look ahead and give an indication of what he expects the arrangements for the peace talks to be thereafter and the timetable for such talks?
The phase we must go through now is agreeing the final text of the Joint Framework Document. I would expect to discuss the detailed modalities for taking the process further with the British Prime Minister at the summit I will have with him at the time of the publication of the Joint Framework Document. At this stage I am not in a position to make any detailed comment thereon.
Would the Taoiseach accept that the Nationalist community in the North of Ireland is as worried about loyalist paramilitaries having large stores of arms as are the Unionist population about republican paramilitaries having stores of arms? Has the Taoiseach expressed a view to the British Government on this?
I certainly agree with Deputy O'Donoghue that the Nationalist community are just as worried, perhaps more worried, about arms in the hands of loyalist paramilitaries as are the Unionist community about arms in the hands of the IRA. The Deputy is absolutely right in saying that and I urge on all concerned the rapid decommissioning of arms as it would give a great sense of security to everyone on both sides of the divide in Northern Ireland. Many of these arms are kept out of a misplaced sense that they provide some protection, but as long as similar arms are held by another community they do not. The sooner we can get all illegally held arms out of commission the better.
I refer the Taoiseach to the framework document. Given the situation that pertains in the House of Commons and that the Government does not have a say in the internal operation of the framework document does he share the fears of many that this could in fact be an appeasement document?
That is the phrase, I think, used by Deputy McDaid but I do not agree with it. It is normal that the British Government would want to consult all communities in Northern Ireland and — as far as possible — meet their concerns. The fact that it wants to meet the concerns of the Unionists should not be described as appeasement any more than efforts on their or our part to meet the concerns of Nationalists. That does not deserve to be described as appeasement in the pejorative sense the term was used in the period leading up to the Second World War.
We are concerned about building peace and that means taking into account the concerns of all the people in Northern Ireland, Nationalists as well as Unionists. That is not appeasement, it is peace-making.
Is it true that 17 February 1995 has been fixed as the day for launching the framework document?
No date has been fixed and I do not know where that suggested date came from.
We are coming close to finality on questions to the Taoiseach. Does Deputy Harney wish to intervene?
Sir, I wish the questions in my name that have not been reached to appear on the Order Paper for tomorrow.
I am sure we can facilitate the Deputy in that regard.
May I make the same request, Sir?
That will be acceded to.
