I now come to deal with Private Notice Questions to the Minister for Justice in relation to the armed robbery at the Brinks-Allied premises in Clonshaugh on the night of 24 January 1995. I will call Deputies in the order in which they submitted their questions. I first call Deputy John O'Donoghue.
Private Notice Questions. - Armed Robbery at Dublin Premises.
With your indulgence, Sir, as this is my first opportunity in the House, I extend my best wishes to the Minister for Justice for a very successful and happy term in office. Will the Minister for Justice give details of the circumstances surrounding the robbery at the Brinks-Allied premises in Clonshaugh, Dublin on the night of 24 January 1995, the progress of the Garda investigation into this matter and if she will make a statement on the matter?
I, too, concur with Deputy O'Donoghue in congratulating the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, and I am glad the gender of the Minister holding that post has not changed. What progress has been made by the Garda in their investigation into the armed robbery at the Brinks-Allied premises in Swords on the night of 24 January 1995 and will she make a statement on the matter?
I thank Deputies O'Donoghue and O'Donnell for their kind remarks and for their questions on this matter.
All Members in this House and the public are deeply concerned about the armed robbery in Clonshaugh last night and I want to give Members as much information as I possibly can, but with the understanding that I do not wish to prejudice the case. I am sure the Deputies when asking questions will not wish to prejudice the Garda investigation.
At approximately 6.30 p.m. yesterday, an armed robbery took place at the Brinks-Allied premises at Clonshaugh, Dublin. Preliminary investigations indicate that at least five raiders were involved and that at least one of them discharged a firearm. Thankfully, no one was injured as a result of the discharge of the firearm. However, one employee was apparently injured as a result of the vehicle used by the raiders being rammed against the door.
The amount of money taken was quite large. It will not be possible to say for definite how much was stolen until the amounts of cash in transit can be verified with the financial institutions involved. However, preliminary indications are that it was considerably less than the figure of £4 million quoted by some media sources.
The raiders succeeded in taking a large number of cash bags and transferred them to a vehicle parked in a field to the rear of the premises. They apparently made their getaway in this vehicle, which was subsequently located by gardaí in a field at Barbarstown Lane, west of Dublin Airport. It appears that the two vehicles used by the raiders during the robbery had been stolen in Dublin on 12 January this year.
A full Garda investigation commenced within minutes of the raid taking place. A number of houses have been visited and searched by members of the Garda Síochána and I am informed that one person was detained last night.
Like all Members of the House, I deplore this appalling crime. Armed robbery cannot and should not be tolerated in a civilised society. I know that the Garda Síochána will leave no stone unturned in their efforts to find the perpetrators and bring them before the courts. In this regard I would like to echo what the Taoiseach said here this morning about the efforts necessary from all sections of the community to assist the gardaí to track down these dangerous armed robbers. Any information about movement of vehicles or suspicious movements by persons should be reported as soon as possible to the gardaí.
Deputies will be aware of the law and order package currently being implemented in the fight to tackle crime. This package, which is costing approximately £66 million, spread over a number of years, is designed to ensure that the force is at the required strength, that more gardaí currently engaged in administration can become operational by replacing them with civilians, and that the latest developments in information technology can improve and enhance the operational capacity of the Garda Síochána.
I have discussed last night's developments at length with the Garda Commissioner and with the Taoiseach. We are concerned to ensure that the Garda Síochána will have sufficient resources in terms of manpower, equipment and forensic assistance to fight armed robbery. If further resources are required they will be provided.
Because of the seriousness of the case and the danger of inhibiting future possible prosecutions, there is under-standably a limit to what I can tell the House in terms of detail. I know the two Deputies asking these questions and other Deputies in the House will recognise the sensitivity of this matter.
In the House this morning Deputy Harney indicated that the gardaí may have had advance notice that this raid was planned. I raised this specific point with the Commissioner, within the past two hours, in view of the concerns understandably raised by Deputy Harney. Not surprisingly the gardaí regularly receive intelligence about criminal plans. In fact a considerable number of such schemes are frustrated as a result of early Garda intervention.
Deputies will understand that in some cases the available information may be fairly specific thus enabling a preventative strategy to be put in place. In others, however, the information can be of a very vague generalised nature and not such as to enable effective and specific counter-measures to be taken. There are also situations of course where misleading information is put into circulation with the deliberate aim of frustrating the battle against crime.
I am satisfied on the basis of the assurances I have received from the Garda Commissioner this afternoon that this was not a situation in which the information available was such that it would have been reasonable to expect that an effective preventative strategy could have been mounted.
I am assured there is no truth in the suggestion that the gardaí knew that a raid on this premises was planned. Had they known this they would clearly have been able to prevent it.
That was never suggested.
I am assured by the Commissioner there is no truth either in the suggestion that the premises was under surveillance and consequently no truth in the suggestion that such surveillance was withdrawn.
I fully understand the concerns raised by Deputy Harney on the basis of the information supplied to her. However I would ask that we be wary of some of the information that may be provided by all of us at a time like this. The better course is to allow the investigation to proceed and to urge that the public support the gardaí in any way they can and to postpone judgment until the investigation is complete.
I note Deputy McDowell said that Deputy Harney did not say what I indicated she said but some of the evening newspapers have indicated that also.
It was suggested that the Garda knew this raid was about to take place.
There is no truth in the suggestion that the Garda knew a raid on the premises was planned. If they had known, they would have been able to prevent it.
On a point of clarification, I did not say that the Garda knew there would be a raid on this premises. However, I am satisfied that the Garda knew a raid of this magnitude was being planned. They visited vulnerable individuals in the past few weeks to alert them to this, to ask them to take certain security precautions and to speak to members of their families in that regard. I am satisfied that is the case.
Does the Minister agree that the point at which an escort, the Garda or the Army, leaves a vehicle carrying large sums of money needs to be reviewed and that guidelines need to be put in place in that regard? If the escort had remained with the vehicle carrying the money for a longer period the crime might have been avoided. Also, what level of resources is available to her Department as a result of the peace dividend? Will she ensure those funds are retained in the Department of Justice to fight the escalating crime problem? In this context, will she ensure that the number of gardaí is increased significantly?
Arrangements regarding escorting large amounts of cash are kept under constant review by the Garda and companies carrying out the escort duty and I have no doubt that following last night's robbery a further examination of the entire process will be carried out. It would not, therefore, be appropriate for me to say what information I have in regard to how this money was escorted. That will form part of the examination that will be carried out by the Garda.
In regard to the second part of the Deputy's question, any resources that become available through the peace dividend and that I need for my Department to ensure the Garda can fight crime to the best of its ability will be maintained in my Department. I will fight tooth and nail in the context of the forthcoming budget to ensure I have the resources I need. During my meeting with the Commissioner less than two hours ago he assured me he has all the resources he needs to carry out the investigation into this crime and he knows he can come back to me if he needs further resources.
Is the Minister satisfied with the level of security and surveillance provided for major cash handling facilities, such as the premises which was raided last night? In other words, is she happy that surveillance is adequate on perimeter fencing given the need for high security on such premises? Has the Garda Commissioner ruled out paramilitary involvement in the crime which occurred last night?
The question of protection surrounding the premises of this or any other company is a matter for the management running the company. A major investigation into this crime is taking place and an examination of the surveillance and security surrounding the premises will form part of it. It is clear there were breaches in the perimeter fences and the company will have to consider its responsibility in that regard. The Garda provide general surveillance on the premises of companies and businesses which hold large amounts of cash, but this matter will have to be reviewed. When major crimes and robberies such as this took place a number of years ago the question of escorts for large amounts of cash was reviewed. At present money over a certain amount cannot be transported around the country without an escort. I am satisfied this will be considered, but I cannot give the Deputy information on what will happen following the examination.
In regard to the second part of the Deputy's question, the Garda Commissioner assured me during our meeting today that there is no indication of any paramilitary involvement in this crime.
The Minister stated that when a certain sum of money is being transported by a carrier it is necessary to have an escort. Does she agree that if the sum involved is extremely large a number of vehicles should carry the money? This would have led to a lesser sum being taken on this occasion.
Investigation into this crime will involve reviewing the security aspects of transporting money. The money in this case was taken when it had arrived and was inside the premises. I am sure the Deputy's suggestion will be examined, but I cannot predict the outcome.
Does the Minister accept that it does not make sense to have a Garda escort while money is in transit but no Garda presence when the money is being held in a premises known to contain large amounts of money at any given time. As there are indications in the media from Garda sources that a well known criminal is the prime suspect in this crime, what prevented the questioning and bringing to justice of that man in the past?
In this case the escort stayed with the money until it was taken into the company's responsibility. The money was inside the premises and the security door closed when it was taken. The normal procedure then would be for the escort to leave. At that point the robbers struck, rammed the door and got inside. Responsibility rests with the company for its security and I have been assured by the Commissioner that this company indicated it operated top of the range security measures, but obviously they will have to be reviewed as a result of the burglary.
A person was arrested and is undergoing questioning in regard to the crime, but it would not be correct for me to enter into speculation as to who might be guilty. There has been much speculation and names have been mentioned, but it would not be appropriate for me to comment at this stage.
Was the Garda aware that a major robbery such as this was planned by a Dublin criminal gang? In recent days did members of the Garda visit people who handled large amounts of cash to alert them to this and to ask them to take special security precautions? They even gave advice to the families of those involved in handling large amounts of cash?
I know the Deputy is anxious to get this information into the public arena, but I urge her to recognise that the Garda frequently get information which allows them to pre-empt and intervene before crimes are committed but I reiterate that they do not have specific information about this robbery. If they had, they would have been able to prevent it. It is normal police practice for the Garda to get such information, but I cannot say any more without jeopardising the way in which the Garda carries out its business, and I do not wish to do that.
I do not wish to be unhelpful but I would like to see those involved brought to justice. Did the Garda visit this company and give them any advice in recent weeks?
Again the Deputy will probably accuse me of trying not to give information to the House. I cannot give information about the actual workings of the Garda and what they did. I do not always have this information, apart from which it would not be appropriate to say how the Garda carry on their business in regard to surveillance or examination of premises. The Deputy will understand the reason because it would, perhaps, give information to people whom we do not want to have that information.
Is it the Minister's intention to set up a new task force to deal with organised crime or does she intend to provide increased resources to any existing task force?
There is an existing task force and I have, today, assured the Garda Commissioner that the full resources of the State will be made available to fighting serious crimes such as this one. I will be seeking resources when required.
Will the Minister agree that locations such as this are a magnet for those who can mount sophisticated armed raids of this kind? In those circumstances and bearing in mind that we do not license employees of security firms to carry firearms it would make sense to station members of the Garda Síochána permanently in locations where large sums of money are handled. It is not sufficient simply to say that once employees are behind gates of this company that is the end of the public's interest in security. Will the Minister take it from me that when one visits RTE — which some Members do frequently — one meets a detective who is permanently on duty to ensure that nothing untoward happens? Would it not make sense if somebody who has a firearm and who would act as a deterrent to armed raiders was on duty in these premises rather than to regard the Garda duty complete as soon as the money is inside the premises?
The Deputy will understand that the Garda are charged with the duty of protecting the whole State. The responsibility of protecting property in a premises is the responsibility of the company involved. There are many concerns such as banks, where there are constantly large sums of money, who provide their own security. I have no doubt that in the review of this crime suggestions such as those mentioned by the Deputy on the security arrangements during transportation, unloading and all the other elements of moving large sums of money, will be considered. Hopefully, this type of crime will not be repeated.
My supplementary question relates to what the Minister said. Will the Minister agree, in view of the fact that the banks and the financial institutions are making massive profits, that there should be a consequent obligation on them to make greater provision, financial and otherwise, for the protection of assets within their custody? Will she agree that whatever security arrangements are in place for the protection of such assets and money should be submitted to the Garda Síochána on a regular basis for examination to ensure that they comply with the best possible standard?
I thank the Deputy for his question. I agree that the banks and other financial institutions are responsible for and carry the cost of most of the security arrangements for the transportation of money. Responsibility for the security of their premises, mechanisms for transporting money and methods of transferring money from one location to another are matters for the companies involved. If they do not accept such responsibility it means that the lives of other people, who may be in a location where a robbery such as this takes place, would be threatened. Thankfully, apart from the man who was injured last night as a result of the door hitting him, there was no serious injury. That has not always been the case and may not always be the case.
That concludes questions for today.