I understand Deputy Sheehan was sharing his time with Deputy Finucane. Deputy Sheehan has six minutes remaining.
Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1995: Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I welcome the decision of the Government to create the two posts. Deputy Carey who will be a Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht will also be given special responsibility for co-ordinating the Government commitment to western development and rural renewal. The appointment of a Minister to cater for the needs of the west from Malin Head to Mizen Head is long overdue. Geographically, Deputy Carey is ideally situated for such an appointment. I cannot understand the attitude of successive Fianna Fáil Deputies who, one after the other, have criticised the appointment of this Minister, an appointment that is vital if the west is to survive. This region has only received the crumbs that fell from the master's table of previous Governments.
It is evident that special attention is needed to arrest the economic malaise and the population haemorrhage must be stopped. Do the Fianna Fáil Party want to let the west turn into a wildlife park for the benefit of wealthy tourists to explore? The Crusade for Survival, launched by the western bishops, highlighted the necessity for immediate Government action to save the west. In view of that I congratulate the Taoiseach and the Cabinet on their wisdom to answer that SOS message so promptly.
It is evident that schools, Garda stations, churches, creameries and post offices have been allowed close by successive Administrations. Deputies on the Opposition benches should not have the audacity to oppose legislation to rectify the serious problems and ensure that the west gets its rightful share of the cake.
Deputy Carey's ministry will contribute to the improvement of living conditions for island inhabitants. Financial aid is needed to construct and improve piers and slipways. While ferry services to our islands must be brought up to proper standards. Grants must be made available for that work. It is vitally necessary that all islands benefit from a ferry subsidy such as applied to Gaelic speaking islands. Island people, regardless of the language they speak, should be given the necessary facilities. An English speaking island population endures the same hardship as does an Irish speaking island population. From the report publicised last Sunday about the Bere Island ferry tragedy, it is evident that immediate ministerial action is needed to rectify the anomalies among our island inhabitants who are treated as second class citizens.
I have knowledge of the needs of the islands. The island committee in Cork county council has indicated that a massive injection of funding is needed if island inhabitants are to survive. I urge the Opposition speakers — there are not many of them listening to me now——
We are listening.
——to let common sense prevail and not play petty politics with the appointment of a Minister who is so badly needed.
Deputy Doyle's ministerial appointment will encompass a vast range of responsibilities, consumer interests and badly needed public service reform. By comparison with EC member states, the history of reform of the public service here has been problematic and difficult, and Deputy Doyle has the ability, courage, imagination and determination to tackle those problems.
I assure Deputy Sheehan I have listened very carefully to everything he said on this matter and I agree entirely with most of what he said. It surprises me that there is no mention of the needs of the west or of the islands in the very elaborate and overworked programme for Government.
Or west Cork.
There is not a mention of west Cork or west Kerry. There is no mention of the needs of the west or of any group of islands off our coast and that is unacceptable. This is a major conversion in a short number of weeks since the programme was first put in place and the initial group of Ministers was appointed. If there is such a degree of concern for the welfare of the west, it is difficult to accept that the Government did not establish such a Ministry in the first group of Ministers appointed.
Better late than never.
Arising from what Deputy Sheehan said — maybe it is a pity he does not speak at the Cabinet table — I would have thought a Minister for the west should have been appointed.
The programme for the new Government is full of fine phrases and lofty sentiments about responsible public behaviour, honouring the character and spirit of the Irish people and making Ireland a more self-reliant, enterprising and innovative society, and I agree entirely with those sentiments. That is the message we have preached in recent times to Irish Steel, TEAM Aer Lingus and all the bodies in the public and semi-public sector. We have told them they must become more self-reliant and more enterprising, but in addition we have told them how to become so. We have told them they must become more competitive and cost effective, that they must cut the number of staff and become leaner and fitter in order to become more efficient. That is the argument we have put before workers and management.
However, we are now being told that the Government must add to its staff, with the additional expense involved, to enable it to become more efficient. I suggest that will stick in the gullets of many people who have recently been requested to do the opposite in their industries and their fields of operation. Nobody believes that adding to staff will of necessity make it more efficient. Nobody believes that these two additional appointments were made in order to render the new Government more efficient. Everybody realises the real reason the appointments are being made. There would be less public cynicism if the Government did not try to convince people that these appointments are being made in the interests of efficiency, because that is not the case.
Adding to an already over-bloated and top heavy administration in the manner proposed and by the appointment of special advisers to Ministers is no guarantee that the Government will be more efficient. It is probable that it will have the opposite effect. People are now stumbling over one another in the corridors, scrambling to get a seat in the restaurant and trying to gain advantage over one another in terms of how they can get their individual messages across to the media. If that is supposed to make the Government more efficient then I am afraid I understand nothing about the system of government. I do not accept that argument.
I am saddened that the first legislation introduced by the Government in 1995 proposes to add to the cost of the public service in one way or another and to make additional ministerial appointments. If the Government had any sense of priority in terms of public appointments it would look at those areas in urgent need of essential public appointments such as the health, educational and judicial services. Taxpayers' scarce money could be put to better use than making these additional appointments which are useless in terms of service to the general public.
I want to refer to areas which I know well. Cork University Hospital — I prefer to call it the regional hospital as it is a major flagship hospital which serves the needs of a much wider region than Cork city and county — has only one consultant cardiologist. As a result people with serious cardiac complaints have to wait for 12 months for a consultation. The hospital has been seeking the appointment of an additional cardiologist for a long time. Taxpayers' money would be better spent in appointing an additional cardiologist to this hospital. I am speaking of only one appointment which I believe ought to be made.
There is a similar situation in relation to the treatment of children with cancer in the same hospital. Because there is no oncologist in the hospital the children in the health board area, in Cork and Kerry, who have cancer other than leukaemia have to travel to hospitals in Dublin and other areas for treatment. I do not need to underline the hardship this causes for these young patients and their families. The parents of these children have to bring their children to Dublin and other areas for treatment because we have not been able to find enough money in the public purse to appoint an oncologist to Cork University Hospital. The public would be better served if scarce taxpayers' money was allocated to such an appointment.
How many additional Circuit Court or other court judges could be appointed with the money which will be spent on appointing two additional Ministers of State and all the apparatus which go with these appointments — offices, drivers, secretaries etc? If the Government made the appointment of more judges a priority there would be a major improvement in law and order issues. At present there is not only a backlog of people waiting to see consultants in hospitals but there is also a backlog of court cases because we do not have enough judges. This is having a very regressive effect on law and order.
I could talk at length about the inadequate number of remedial teachers in schools. There was a reference in the House last night to the crisis in Cork University Hospital which does not have enough beds. As a result a number of very important operations which were due to be carried out in the hospital this week had to be cancelled. Instead of voting money to remedy that critical situation in the health services and some of the other problems to which I referred we are being asked to vote money to underpin the appointments of two additional Ministers of State.
The work which will be assigned to these two new Ministers of State could just as easily have been done by some of the Ministers of State already appointed. The gross overstaffing of this House in terms of Ministerial appointments is an insult to the many people in the public service — in the health and education areas, the Garda and the courts — who are struggling to keep within their budgets and who have to cope with a lack of staff. I could also talk at length about the pittance given to carers and people who carry out home help duties, thus enabling patients to remain in the community. The key point I want to make is that the money being voted for these two additional appointments could be better spent with more benefit to the community.
These appointments will add greatly to the level of cynicism about politics and politicians among the public. It will also devalue the English language — we say one thing in our programme for Government and during election time when we are looking for votes but then do the exact opposite. I was active in the by-elections in Cork North Central and Cork South Central last November. The key point in the election propaganda of Democratic Left and Fine Gael during those by-elections was that the then Government was squandering money on what it called Mercs and perks. The perks were the special advisers and other people employed to assist the Government. People voted for the candidates of those parties on the clear understanding that if they got into Government they would reverse that process. Look what happened — not only have they not reversed that process, they have retained and expanded it. One can imagine the cynicism among the people of Cork and other areas at that turnabout. We say one thing but we do the opposite which must be bad for politics. I appeal to the Government at this late stage to reconsider its position in relation to these two appointments.
We are all concerned about the west.
Now you are talking.
I would not wish any utterance of mine to be misconstrued here. People seem to have a new science of distorting words and their meaning. To say that because we oppose these appointments we also oppose special initiatives to help the west is not the case. I repeat the question I posed at the outset. If this Government is so concerned about the west, why were these appointments not part of the initial appointments of Ministers of State? Why is there not any mention, under any heading, of the west or any particular programme or policy towards the west in the new elaborate programme for Government? If this Government was concerned about the west and responding to the legitimate plea made by the western bishops and the good work done by them in terms of identifying needs and pinpointing remedies to address the problems of the west, surely it would have appointed a Minister for the West in the first tranche of appointments? Nobody is convinced by the story being put out.
There was a desperate scramble earlier this month to save the Government's blushes when it realised it had got it wrong in seeking to appoint Deputy Carey to the office of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Having failed to appoint Deputy Carey to that office, it came up with another notion. The Government was fortunate, however, that it had not already made an appointment to the west but I suppose it would have found some other cause with which to identify. Nobody should be deluded as to the priority this Government puts on the welfare of the west.
These new appointments — and the appointments of the additional plethora of advisers and special advisers — will not make for a more efficient Government. It did not do so in the last Government because the first function of Government is to keep itself in office and the last Government, with all its advisers, failed to do so. Those advisers failed in the primary duty of Government because, to achieve anything in a programme, one must stay in office. These appointments will not lead to efficiency.
I fiercely reject this wasteful use of taxpayers' money, particularly at a time when many critical appointments need to be made in our health, judicial, education and local government services. This is a gross misuse of public money. This turnabout, particularly on the part of Fine Gael and Democratic Left, will not earn any respect for elected politicians. It will do the opposite. It will breed a higher level of cynicism and contempt than that which exists already.
My party will be voting against this Bill and I repeat the commitment made by our party Leader, Deputy Harney. Should the opportunity arise — and I hope for the sake of the country it does — that we will be part of the next Government, we will certainly play our part in not only reducing the number of Ministers of State to 15 but in reducing it even further. We all acknowledge that the 15 Cabinet Ministers do very good work but we know also that most of the Ministers of State have flimsy duties assigned to them and some of them have been promoted far beyond their capacity. It is because of that that they need so many advisers, press officers and so on. The whole question of the number and duties of Ministers of State is one we will be examining carefully in terms of real Dáil reform when we, I hope, become part of the next Government.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Ring.
That is satisfactory and agreed.
It is with pleasure that I support the appointment of the two new Ministers of State, Deputies Doyle and Carey. I compliment Deputy Quill on her very eloquent speech but she has a short memory. It is not that long ago that the Progressive Democrats were intent on abolishing the Seanad. Since some of their Members were elected to the Seanad we have heard nothing from them about that.
I do not see how that relates to this argument.
It relates to people in the public service, which is what we are.
He is talking about the Seanad——
I am talking about Seanad Éireann which was one of the major planks of the Progressive Democrats' policy for a long time. We do not hear a word about that now. When the Leader of Deputy Quill's party was a Minister of State, she put in an excellent performance as indeed did all the other Ministers of State.
Ministers of State have an important function provided they are defined properly for them and that they do not go around like the headless chickens about which we heard a lot in the past three or four months. Their performance depends on the specific task they are given and I know that because I was a Minister of State some years ago. That is why I am shocked by the Opposition opposing the appointments of the two new Ministers of State. If the Opposition said in two years' time that it did not work, that the public service or the west are not better off, I would accept that criticism because it would be made with the benefit of hindsight. Deputy Quill and many other speakers, particularly those from Fianna Fáil, are vehemently opposed to the appointment of Deputy Carey. The western bishops, who have received much praise from speakers today, said recently that they had been seeking such an appointment for many years.
We are opposed to the appointment of 17 Ministers of State.
Deputy Quill is only playing politics.
Deputy Quill is playing politics because the people who need a Minister for the west have said they want such an appointment. Members of the Opposition should go back down to the chambers of commerce in the west and say that they are opposed to the appointment of a Minister for the west. I would like to see Deputy Quill say that in the west. The Progressive Democrats will get the same answer in the west as they got in the Cork by-election.
We will tell them what Deputy Quill said.
I have been around long enough to know that the tasks given to the two junior Ministers involves an extremely large volume of work. I have no way of knowing, nor has anybody else, how successful they will be. However, the need is there. I sincerely believe that the two people most suited to achieve success in their respective areas are Deputies Doyle and Carey and I wish them luck in carrying out the daunting task they have before them. We have talked about the reorganisation of the public service and western development for many a day. The Government has now said it will try to do something about it and, in two and a half years time we can evaluate the performance of the two Ministers. I believe the west of Ireland project will meet with success.
I cannot understand why Fianna Fáil is voting tonight, particularly against the appointment of Deputy Carey. Fianna Fáil has always tried to give the impression that there can be no development of any description in the west that is not initiated by it. One only has to look at the decline in the population of areas from Galway to Donegal to know that successive Governments have not given enough thought to the underlying problems that beset the west. Now, when we have a chance to install a Minister of State, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats are opposed to it.
In recent times there has been an effort to co-ordinate various activities. There are countless thousands of local communities trying to help themselves, investing their time, energy and expertise to make their area a better place in which to live. There is potential for job creation in this. I appreciate the initiative of the western bishops who managed to bring thousands of people to area meetings and get their views. There is a large framework of very good chambers of commerce across the western province. Organisations such as the IFA, ICMSA, Macra na Feirme, the town commissioners, the county councils and the urban councils comprise a sound local government structure. However, none of the county councils or corporations is quite big enough to have a major impact on the social and economic life of the region. It makes sense, therefore, to co-ordinate all the activities in so far as this is possible.
Having lived and worked all my life in the west I can say that Deputy Carey will have a difficult job. However, his appointment is a strong statement by the Government that it is sincere and interested in doing what it can to revive the west. One might ask why the west should be helped to survive. Some politicians and economists say the west has got enough, that it is no different from any other region and should be treated in the same way. This is not how one treats a very sick patient, and many parts of the west are denuded of population. Some areas are unable to regenerate population. The new Minister of State, Deputy Carey, must ensure that the money available is used properly to introduce a new dimension to community effort.
I hope the efforts of Deputies Doyle and Carey will be fruitful because if the west cannot be regenerated the loss to the entire community and to Ireland generally will be great. I wish both Ministers of State well and I am amazed that the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil intend to vote against the appointment of a Minister of State for western development.
For too long the catch cry has been "to hell or to Connacht". One would be forgiven for thinking that the slogan of previous Governments was "to hell with Connacht" such has been the wilful neglect of the region. It is heartening that the new Government has moved decisively. The appointment of Deputy Carey as Minister of State for western development is a step in the right direction. I welcome the decision, but I do not view the appointment as an end in itself. The Government will have to back up words with action. Deputy Carey will have to earn his keep and I will keep a critical eye on his performance.
For years bishops and politicians have been highlighting the decline of the west. Archbishop Cassidy of Tuam, who is to retire shortly and whom I wish well, has been extremely eloquent in underlining the seriousness of the situation. He says the west will be bled dry of its people and will be unable to sustain itself within a few decades unless we take action. The Archbishop elect of Tuam, Dr. Michael Neary, who will be installed in March, will maintain the good fight for western development started by Bishops Cassidy and Kirby among others. I wish him well in this most difficult work. The Church, although backed up by vibrant community core groups, cannot succeed without the support and commitment of the Government. Having talked with Deputy Carey, the proposed new Minister, and other senior and junior Government members I am confident there is the will and determination to cut away the curtain of blind indifference which has been wrapped around the problem until now.
This is a new year and I am full of optimism. We have a new Government, a new Minister for the west a new beginning. I am not big-headed when I claim credit for the new mood of concern about the depopulation of the west. Last year, against all the odds the people of west Mayo elected me to Dáil Éireann. They did not elect me because they liked the look of my face or the ring of my voice. They voted for change and in protest at the disgraceful neglect of whole communities which were either dying away or were having the young people sucked from them by the dark forces of emigration. I was elected to the Dáil because for too long Fianna Fáil neglected the people of west Mayo and the other scattered communities along the western seaboard.
Surveys have been undertaken and forecasts made to underline the extent of depopulation in the west and north-west. Other speakers have given the stark figures and I do not intend to repeat them. Some of the latest statistics refer to Achill Island. A survey by the Irish National Teachers' Organisation indicated that the school-going population on the island is in rapid decline. The study showed that the numbers attending primary schools on the island will have dropped by 363 by 1997. This represents a fall of 50 per cent over four years. This trend, if not reversed, will result in the loss of five teaching jobs and the creation of four one teacher schools on the island. I have said enough to illustrate my point. The problems of Achill are mirrored in dozens if not hundreds of communities from Donegal to Kerry.
Before I conclude I want to quote Archbishop Cassidy whom I mentioned previously. In welcoming the appointment of Deputy Carey he said that reviving the west was not a question of breathing life into the dead, that there was enough talent and enterprise in the region on which to build. I heartily agree with that statement. We have the means to work our way out of the depopulation nightmare. The action plan being prepared by the Western Development Partnership Board is a step in the right direction.
I congratulate Deputy Doyle on her appointment as Minister of State and wish her well in her role as chairperson of the special committee set up to commemorate the Famine. We should remember that that terrible event was only a century and a half ago. We forget the past at our peril. Let the present Government act now to stop the province where our forefathers starved becoming an empty wasteland.
I call on my Fianna Fáil colleagues and the one Progressive Democrats Member from the west to support the new Minister of State for the West. I compliment the Taoiseach on showing his commitment to the west by reappointing Pádraig Flynn as the EU Commissioner. The Fianna Fáil Members told us in the past of their great concern for the west, but it took the by-election of last year to remind them how much they had forgotten the west.
I congratulate Deputy Carey on his appointment as Minister of State for the West. He knows the problems there because he was my director of elections. Deputy Higgins, the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy Kenny and I will have the opportunity to fill him in. I do not wish at the next election to have to tell the people in my constituency that the Fianna Fáil Members, the people who love the west, voted against the Minister for the West. I hope they will vote with the Government so that we can get people back to the west. We have suffered long enough under Fianna Fáil.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Browne.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
The last piece of rhetoric from the Deputy opposite paints a totally different story from the reality. We are not against Deputy Carey, neither are we against the west nor the appointment of a Minister of State for western development. We are all for those things.
We are reassured.
I do not think the Deputy needs reassurance from me but if it gives him a feeling of well-being and happiness, so be it.
I congratulate Deputy Carey on his appointment as Minister of State. I think he deserves that recognition. I recognise him as a decent colleague and I wish him well. I also wish Deputy Avril Doyle well. She is a very worthy individual who deserves recognition. Perhaps in time both these Deputies will be elevated from the positions of Minister of State to greater things.
The west is very dear to the heart of the Fianna Fáil Party and will continue to be. We have no problem with a Ministry for western development but the idea of creating 17 Ministers of State is a problem. I do not think that the State can carry that number of Ministers of State. If one looks at the duties and functions they have been given — I will not go down the road of Deputy Rabbitte, who is now the Government's official doorman, the official greeter, as that is the amount of work he has to do as a Minister of State with special responsibility for Government.
It seems extraordinary that when the announcement of Ministers of State was made on 20 December last to mention an additional Minister of State in the person of Deputy Doyle there was no mention of the appointment of Deputy Carey. It was not contemplated that there would be a Minister of State with special responsibility for the west.
If there is to be a Minister of State with special responsibility for the west why could it not have been added to the Department of Tourism and Trade? Deputy Enda Kenny for example, is Minister for Tourism and Trade and he now has a Minister of State Deputy Toddy O'Sullivan. I am not certain that within his remit there is sufficient work for him as the Department is small. If we are talking about the west that is the portfolio to which to attach western development to give it additional strength and vigour.
The bishops, of course, are right in saying that the west has been neglected by successive Governments during the years. I love the west and live there as often as I can. I know Cois Fharraige and Galway to Rossaveal intimately and the neglect of that part of the world by successive Governments, ourselves or coalition Governments. I am glad that the poverty I remember of the 1940s has now become a thing of the past but the area continues to need to be developed.
This is called for in the document produced by the bishops and now being discussed in concert with the various communities throughout the west. That is a very important development.
We do not begrudge Deputy Carey his appointment as Minister of State for the west nor do we begrudge Deputy Doyle her position as Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Finance and the Department of Transport, Energy and Communication — they might have given her further responsibilities to keep her occupied. What we object to, however, and will continue to do so is the cynical creation of two new Ministers of State. When we were in Government a short time ago Deputy Rabbitte would stand up and lecture us about the number of programme managers, advisers and so on. Deputy Rabbitte, who has a non-job in Government has a State car and all the trappings of a full Minister and has done a complete somersault from three months ago. Plain Deputy Rabbitte has had metamorphosis and is now Deputy Rabbitte, Minister of State for the Government.
Let me make it clear that we are in favour of the west and its people, we are for the Deputies, the Ministers of State but we are not in favour of non-jobs in the sense of creating a special job to placate an individual for some ulterior motive. To suggest that by not going into the division lobby Fianna Fáil is in some way against the west could not be further from the truth. We stand strong and firm in our conviction that the west needs to be developed but we do not need 17 Ministers of State and that is why we will go into the division lobbies and make our protest.
(Wexford): Like Deputy Andrews I do not oppose the appointment of Deputies Carey and Doyle as Ministers of State. I wish Deputy Carey well. He is regarded as one of the honourable gentlemen in the House. If there is to be a Minister of State for the west no one deserves the position more. Prior to the formation of the last Government we had the Labour Party occupying the high moral ground and Fine Gael lecturing us on transparency, accountability and openness. Democratic Left, the party of self-righteousness, daily lectured the outgoing Government on how to do its job.
Everyone was against you.
(Wexford): That party was critical of the Government's programme managers, advisers, use of the Government jet, State cars and so on. I believed that when that party went into Government its Ministers would operate from huts in the Dáil yard.
On bicycles.
(Wexford): Democratic Left Ministers are the most extravagant. Deputy Rabbitte appointed a programme manager, something he was so opposed to when in Opposition. The Fianna Fáil/Labour Government did not allow Ministers of State to appoint programme managers. We have the farcical position in the Department of Enterprise and Employment of the Minister, Deputy Bruton, having a programme manager and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, having another. I wonder who will win out when it comes to making decisions.
They do a good job. Look at Packard.
(Wexford): The Minister of State has a State car so, obviously, he likes his comforts. That is not in accord with what he said over the past three years and represents a major somersault.
He will have something to say again.
(Wexford): Deputy Carey is an honourable gentleman and I wish him well in his position as Minister for the west. However, if it was intended to appoint a Minister for the west Deputy Carey should have been in the first 15 and not appointed as an afterthought. I heard Ministers and Deputies talk about the need to protect and develop rural Ireland and revitalise the west. We are all in favour of that. For many years too many people have drifted towards the major urban centres. I hope the Government will continue the decentralisation programme and that county enterprise boards will be given funds to rebuild rural areas. The Leader programmes played an important part in developing small enterprises. I hope these will be reintroduced.
In originally appointing Ministers and Ministers of State why did the Taoiseach not think it worth while to appoint a Minister for the west? There were 29 vacancies excluding his own. If it had been possible to remove Deputy Jacob as Leas-Cheann Comhairle the position of Minister for the west would not have seen the light of day. I do not dispute that it is good to have a Minister for the west but he has been appointed for all the wrong reasons.
What about the tall man?
(Wexford): Two excellent Minister have already been appointed, Deputies Kenny and Higgins.
The truth is always bitter. The Deputy is slow on that one.
(Wexford): I am sure they will be well able to make an input at the Cabinet table on behalf of the west.
Deputy Higgins is not under the water.
(Wexford): I spent three weeks in Cork during the recent by-election campaign. Fine Gael and Democratic Left had advertisements in the newspapers highlighting the extravagance of the outgoing Government, showing photographs of Rolls Royces, limousines, jets and the Taoiseach rushing to the airport. They stated this was a waste of taxpayers' money. During my canvass I was told that Fine Gael and Democratic Left stated, if elected, they would put the money to more productive uses. They would reduce taxation, increase social welfare benefits and house improvements grants. The people in Cork were misled and are due an apology by Fine Gael and Democratic Left.
We will not fill any State boards.
(Wexford): The buzz words were cronyism and the golden circle.
Does Mr. Flynn know about this loose talk?
(Wexford): We were castigated from a height and were told that the Rainbow Coalition would change all that. Cronyism and the golden circle is rampant in this Government and it has a major apology to make to the people. It is amazing how things change in two months. Those who made allegations against the outgoing Government have somersaulted to such an extent that the public are outraged. Kathleen Lynch, the newly elected Deputy, stated on every programme during the Cork by-election that there were too many Government Deputies in Cork. I wonder what she is saying now because there are more Government Deputies than when Fianna Fáil/Labour were in Government.
And more Ministers.
There is a better spread now.
(Wexford): Some years ago, Fianna Fáil increased the number of Ministers of State from ten to 15 and the Opposition at the time was outraged. There were ferocious outbursts by Deputy Barry and others but now Fine Gael find it acceptable to increase the number from 15 to 17.
I was a Minister of State and know that many junior Ministers do a good job. I am disappointed that there are no Ministers of State for food and environmental protection. That is a pity. The areas of food and environmental protection are interlinked. Regardless of the capabilities of the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin — I know he was a good Minister for Health — it will be difficult for him to look after environmental protection as well as other areas of the environment. The Taoiseach and the three parties should look seriously at giving responsibility for environmental protection to a Minister.
Is the Deputy suggesting that we appoint an extra Minister?
(Wexford): These are very important areas and it is wrong not to appoint a Minister to look after them. It will reflect badly on the Government.
A number of Ministers have been given responsibility in two or three Departments. I wish Deputy Durkan well in his Department. Will such a Minister or Minister of State have three private secretaries and a back-up service in each Department? How much will that cost? Enormous extra costs will be involved.
Prior to the formation of the last Government, Labour was negotiating from the cliff top of the high moral ground. They said they would not go back into Government unless the proposed pay increases for Ministers and Ministers of State were not implemented. While that has happened, there is the proposal to appoint two additional Ministers of State, in addition to new programme managers, new advisers and so on. The costs of such appointments far exceed the salary increases that were to have been paid to Ministers and Ministers of State and the objection to which was no more than a publicity exercise on the part of the Labour Party.
I wish Deputy Carey well in his new appointment. He is a decent, honourable man and will do a good job as Minister for the West. Who knows, perhaps Wexford and Clare might meet in the All-Ireland Hurling Final this year when we can sit side by side in Croke Park. My sparring partner from Wexford, Deputy Avril Doyle, is an able dealer, tough, hard working, having survived the tough constituency that is Wexford over many years. I have no doubt that she will carry out the tasks allocated to her by the Taoiseach in a responsible manner; indeed she is well capable of being on the Front Bench.
In Wexford we have now Ministers Howlin, Yates and Minister of State, Deputy Avril Doyle, which will render it very difficult for humble backbenchers like myself to survive within that political scenario——
The Deputy is putting in his stake early.
(Wexford):——and in the dog fights that will take place in ensuing years.
I wish both Members well in their new ministerial positions. Nonetheless it is a very cynical exercise on the part of Fine Gael, Labour and, particularly, on the part of Democratic Left who lectured us when in Government so frequently over the preceding three years on how to run Government and how not to waste taxpayers' money, of which this is a cynical example.
Cuireann sé an-lúcháir orm an deis seo a fháil chun labhairt ag an díospóireacht faoi leasú an Achta seo. Mar Theachta Dála ó lár an chósta thiar, is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé d'údarás agam a rá go bhfuil tuiscint mhaith agam ar na fadhbanna atá idir chaibidil sna ceantair seo. Beidh focal ar leith le rá agam faoin nGaeltacht ar ball.
The west is caught in a vicious circle; as its population has declined, services reduced and economic activity decreased. Each of those negative factors reinforces the others; as services have been reduced and economic activity curved downwards, fewer people have been able to live in the west. While other parts of the country experience social and economic problems, no other region is caught in this type of trap.
My job will be straightforward, to find practical ways of helping the people of the west to break out of this vicious circle. The appointment of a new Minister of State with responsibility for the west has been widely welcomed throughout the region, among others the Council of the West and Archbishop Cassidy of Tuam. This huge response convinces me of the heartfelt desire of the people of the west to have a voice at national level, someone to argue their case in the highest arena. I hope to serve those people to the best of my ability, to leave a legacy comprising structures and support in which the people of the region can believe. The people want this, the desire is there and found lucid expression when the western bishops launched their document "A Crusade for Survival", which initiative energised local communities in addition to focusing attention on the needs of the region. I might now quote from what the bishops said in "A Crusade for Survival":
... the scale of the problems in the West of Ireland is so great, and the need for action so urgent that a resolution of the crisis situation of which we speak in the report demands a major partnership between the people and the Government, and between private and public enterprise. Our target is, together, to stabilise the population by the end of the decade.
The analyses and policy recommendations contained in the report "A Crusade for Survival" are important in that they represent the various perspectives and key developmental priorities of the people living in the west. The report represents the consensus views of a number of core groups who have identified the potential of the area and recommended strategic approaches to exploit that potential. The report merits a positive response. It called for the appointment of a Minister for the West. I am pleased and honoured to have been nominated for this position.
The bishops' initiative mobilised many diverse interest groups and sectoral organisations in the region, managing to capture the imagination of the people and, through those core groups, allow for genuine bottom-up participation in the process. The newly-established Council for the West will continue to provide an outlet for those concerns and energies. I have already written to the council members expressing my admiration of the achievements of the bishops' initiative to date. I know that the council will prove to be a valuable source of ideas and support for the continued development of the west.
The Western Development Partnership Board forms a further important element of the response to the needs of the west, representing, as it does, all the main State agencies in the region, including FÁS, Bord Fáilte, Forbairt, IDA Ireland, Údarás na Gaeltachta and Teagasc. These experienced, high-level members of key developmental agencies in the region will be complemented by the energy and enthusiasm of board members nominated by local developmental interests in the region.
The Western Development Partnership Board has been set the specific target of achieving population stability at 1991 census levels by the end of the decade. This population stability is to be achieved on a county-by-county basis and will take account of the need to ensure that a balance is struck between the development of urban areas, as centres of growth, and the maintenance of rural communities. That task appears impossible but need not be so. I believe it is achieveable.
The striking success of Rural Resettlement Ireland, led by Mr. Jim Connolly, is an important example of the target to which I have just referred. They are developing a new partnership between the public and private sectors and the Irish overseas. It is this type of initiative which requires a clear focus for support at Government level. On Sunday last I attended the launch of a five year plan by Rural Resettlement Ireland in Athlone when I met Mr. Jim Connolly. I was glad to receive congratulations and the support of all western Deputies there, including those of the Fianna Fáil Party, who were most anxious that this appointment should go ahead.
The Western Development Partnership Board will complement the work already being done by the county enterprise boards and Leader groups in the region. The regional and cross-sectoral perspectives of the board will help to ensure that the activities of county and sub-county level groups are reinforced by appropriate regional policies. There will be scope also for co-ordination and co-operation between the board and those groups. Indeed the terms of reference of the board specifically provide for it acting as a catalyst in this manner. There are many possibilities for such initiatives. I hope to see the board pursue this route.
While continuing pressure on numbers in agriculture and competitive forces of Europe and the Far East pose a serious challenge to the region, many opportunities also exist for the west. Its unspoiled environment and social and cultural attractions can act as a magnet for tourists. Information technology will allow businesses to establish in the west, given that telecommunications have diminished the importance of geographic distances. I am aware that a person in County Clare is working on a scheme involving the European Union which I hope will be up and running fairly soon. Those are just two of the sectors where new opportunities await development.
Another area of great potential is that of small business, particularly those in the food area. Irish food products are renowned for their quality. We must build on this reputation and the positive image of Ireland as a green, unspoiled country. The west needs to ensure that it maximises the potential of this sector.
Cross-Border trade and tourism also offer huge possibilities for the region, in particular for the counties of Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim, often viewed as peripheral but which have a natural hinterland across the Border and following the end of violence in the North have had increased contact with the North which will benefit them enormously.
I have already met the members of the board and spoken to them about the role it can play in tackling the problems of the region, capitalising on its possibilities. I was impressed by the seriousness with which it approaches its task and have assured it of my support. I hope to develop this and other contacts throughout the west of Ireland over the next few weeks. I was impressed by the venue in Foxford chosen by the board for that meeting. Foxford presents a clear demonstration of what can be done in partnership between private and public interests and with goodwill and community initiative. I was impressed by the activities in Foxford, including the programme outlined by the manager of Meitheal Mayo.
The board was asked to produce an action plan by the autumn and that plan will receive an immediate positive response from me and the Government. The plan and the board's role in overseeing its implementation will also provide a focus for the activities of the public agencies active in the region.
The appointment of a Minister with responsibility for the west means that the people of the region now have a voice at the centre of national administration. The former Taoiseach, Charles J. Haughey, addressed the question of western development and sited responsibility for it in his Department and that role was continued by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds. That followed a rural resettlement programme pursued by Mr. Jim Connolly. I would point out, not in a niggardly way, that a point made to me in Athlone was that there was a good deal of scepticism about whether that resettlement programme would get off the ground.
Was Inisvickillane not resettled?
It was resettled. Mr. Jim Connolly told me that in order to meet the then Taoiseach, Deputy Reynolds, he had to travel to New York as it was not possible for Mr. Connolly to meet the Taoiseach in Dublin because of his agenda at the time. That illustrates the lack of access to Government encountered by people in rural development programmes hitherto.
The Western Development Partnership Board was established through the Department of the Taoiseach because of the central and strategic nature of the Department. Likewise my appointment as Minister of State at the Department will give me a central position from which to address the key issues affecting the region. Local people must be given a stake in their own future — a chance to take steps to improve their lives and environment. There is only so much that even the most energetic community can do for itself. Up to now, communities have felt frustrated. This new Ministry will provide a clear path from good ideas to effective action.
The challenge facing the west is much more than an economic one. It relates to the self-confidence and a sense identity for the people of the region. The constant loss of population, particularly the emigration of young people, can damage the morale of small communities. Part of my task in this new Ministry will be to stimulate new confidence in these communities — to let them know they are valued. The ultimate objective should be that every young person leaving school or college in the west will have a chance to live or work in their local community.
In some cases young people are attracted by the bright lights of the big city or even to the different experiences offered by a foreign country. They may also wish to broaden their education or gain valuable work experience. I hope more will at least have the option of staying in their local areas and that those who leave will be tempted back by the many attractions of the west.
Much of the work of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht relates directly to the development and, indeed, conservation of a large part of the western region. I intend to work very closely with the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, another Clare man, who also represents a neighbouring constituency of west Galway.
Beidh mé i dteagmháil leis an Aire Ealaíon, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta go luath faoi chúrsaí sa Ghaeltacht. Faoi mar is eol don Teach, tá cuid mhaith scéimeanna á reachtáil ag an Roinn ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht — go háirithe i gcás na muiroibreacha ar na h-oileáin sa Ghaeltacht.
Le blianta fada anois táthar ag oibriú go dian ag forbairt na Gaeltachta agus ag leathnú agus ag caomhnú na Gaeilge. Faoi láthair tá an Roinn Ealaíon, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta, faoi threoir an Aire, ag déanamh forbairt ar mhuiroibreacha, tithe, agus áiseanna pobail ó Dhún na nGall go dtí Corcaigh agus ar na h-oileáin Ghaeltachta. Idir í féin agus Údarás na Gaeltachta, táthar ag cabhrú le comharchumainn agus ag cur áiseanna farantóireachta ar fáil ar an mór thír agus ar na h-oileáin. I gcás Údarás na Gaeltachta tá beagnach 6,000 post lánaimseartha cruthaithe i gcomhlachtaí a fuair cúnamh ón Údarás agus atá mar dhea-shampla agus mar mhisneach don iarthar uile. Tabharfaidh mo phost nua deis dom an obair seo a láidriú.
Tá coiste eadar-ranna ag scrúdú na bhfadhbanna a bhíonn ag oileánaigh. Beidh torthaí ar obair an choiste seo ina chabhair mhór domsa. Beidh sé rí-shoiléir don Teach cé chomh crua is atá an saol ag na comhluadair oileáin, go mór mór le linn an gheimhridh. Chonaiceamar go léir le déanaí an togha oibre a rinne an tAer Cór chun freastal ar na comhluadair chéanna. Léiríonn sé crógacht agus misneach mhuintir na n-oileán agus slí bheatha faoi leith á caomhnú acu. Is léir go bhfuil dualgas faoi leith orainn go léir tuiscint agus tacaíocht chuí a thaispeáint dóibh. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall chun cothrom na féinne a sholáthar dóibh.
The task is to break out of the vicious circle of declining population, declining services and declining economic activity. Even in advance of completion of the action plan by the Western Partnership Board we can take practical steps. For example, I want to implement a pilot scheme to examine how public services can be delivered more effectively in sparsely populated areas.
Throughout my time in public life, and I am sure Deputy McDowell will agree with me on this, I have recognised and strongly supported the view that State services must be run efficiently and with the same economic criteria that apply to all well-run businesses. At the same time, I am only too acutely aware of the injustice of withdrawing services from people solely on the grounds that they do not have enough neighbours. The answer to this dilemma is for the providers of the services to act together. For example, where the community has difficulty in supporting, say, an ESB office and a post office, the two could use the same premises and employ part time staff. Also, redundant public buildings could be used as a single location for one-stop-shops for several public services. There are endless possibilities.
In this area, some interesting work has been carried out by the Forum group in Connemara. Mr. Leo Hallissey, who at one time was my next door neighbour in Clarecastle, is very active in that group. It has had success in responding to the needs of the elderly in the area. I heard Mr. Hallissey on Raidió na Gaeltachta this morning describing a pooling system of cars to bring people to the pubs, the church and the doctor.
The Deputy should appoint him as his programme manager.
It might be noted by teachers in particular that that group has also had success with improvements in remedial education and public transport together with new initiatives in developing shellfish farming and local tourism. There are clear lessons to be learned from the experience of the Forum in co-ordinating the actions of different public sector bodies.
Up until now there was no one to help turn the type of eminently suitable proposals into reality. There was no Government Department or State agency which could pull together the providers of services. It is precisely because effective action involves such co-ordination across Departments and agencies that the Government has moved the process forward with the establishment of this new Ministry. It should have happened much earlier.
I wish to share my time with Deputies Dempsey and Power and, if time permits, with Deputy O'Keeffe.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I dtosach ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabháil leis an Teachta Carey as ucht an Ghaeilge álainn sin a labhair sé. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé in ann an Ghaeilge sin a úsáid ar fud na Gaeltachta agus i mo chathair dhúchais féin, cathair na Gaillimhe.
This is a serious debate about a matter of principle, not about the personalities of individuals opposite. It is about the principle of the use of State funds — taxpayers' funds — to solve party political problems. We oppose the use of taxpayers' funds to solve the leadership problems of the Fine Gael Party. If the case was being made that these two appointments were in the national interest or an effort to further Government policies one could consider them positively, but as everybody knows they are proposed to reward two Fine Gael Deputies for missing out on the first row, the one and a half rows comprising Deputy Rabbitte, the second row and the two and a half rows. Would it not be the essence of transparency to admit that when there are three parties in Government new jobs must be created to keep everybody on board?
I applaud the Government's commitment to job creation. It has appointed 75 non civil servants since coming into office a few short weeks ago. There has also been a de facto increase in the size of the Cabinet and two new Ministers of State will be appointed. That is not a bad job creation record in a short time.
Did the Deputy's party not appoint Bernie McGlinchey?
We are to have four new Dáil committees presumably with paid chairmanships — as Deputy Ahern said earlier, "an orgy of appointments indeed".
Why is Democratic Left silent on this issue? The Fianna Fáil front bench discussed the matter and undertook publicly to repeal this legislation. A compromise between the rainbow parties is being achieved at the taxpayers' expense. The alternative for the Taoiseach was to make difficult choices, which is what being Taoiseach appears to be about, but it is regrettable he decided to put his party before the taxpayer on this occasion.
In fairness, I compliment the Taoiseach for his admission on Question Time today when pressed by Deputy Ahern on the need for programme managers. Despite his Cork by-election campaign call to "stop the gravy train of programme manager appointments and others", the Taoiseach told the Dáil this afternoon that he had changed his mind and he now supported that concept. That is a start and I thank him for it.
The Programme for Government is a serious document, yet there is no mention in it of the need for a new ministerial post to save the west. If that was an important matter in the minds of the negotiators surely it would have been included in that document. Likewise, if it was deemed necessary to appoint a new Minister of State with responsibility for co-ordinating consumer access to services and a thousand other matters, why was it not included in the Programme for Government? With my colleagues in Fianna Fáil, I was involved in negotiating the proposed aborted Programme for Government between the Labour and Fianna Fáil parties until Deputy Spring changed his mind and withdrew from the negotiations. At no time during those talks did the question of the appointment of new Ministers of State arise. I conclude, therefore, that the Labour Party in this Government is merely going along with this decision as a matter of expediency to solve Fine Gael's dilemma of having more ambitions than there are posts to satisfy.
Why is the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, going along with this proposal? He would not have contemplated it at another time. I understand he will actually vote for it. A few short months ago he would have roasted Fianna Fáil if it attempted this charade. We should have spotted this when the Labour Party put forward the idea of a rotating Taoiseach. The half Cabinet ministry held by Deputy Rabbitte and the two extra posts now proposed come from the same type of thinking that threw up the idea of rotating Taoisigh and equating jobs with ambitions.
To solve the Government's lack of a majority in the Seanad, will we now have a Minister of State from the Seanad? Deputies may smile at that suggestion but when they hear what I have to say they may not. I understand discussions are taking place. Are alternative Seanad arrangements being considered this afternoon? For example, Senator O'Toole, the Secretary-General of the INTO made no bones yesterday about the fact that in his talks with the Fine Gael Party about his vote in the Seanad he said would decide how to vote based on the Government's response to issues he would raise on his education spending proposals. The Taoiseach should resist this shopping list approach before it grows like Topsy.
I do not agree with the suggestion of my colleague, Deputy McCreevy, that many of the Ministers of State are virtually titular appointments. I had the honour to hold such a post on two occasions and I put new policies and programmes in place in important areas of State. However, the proposal to increase the number by two runs the risk of debasing what is a valuable coinage.
Deputies Doyle and Carey are respected Members of the House and if these appointments proceed I wish them well.
I congratulate Deputies Carey and Doyle. I know they are not appointed yet, but it is obvious, because of the Government's majority, that they will be. I wish them well.
Eloquent attempts were made yesterday to defend the appointment of two additional junior Ministers and Deputy Quinn, Minister for Finance, with his descriptive job specifications, made them sound very interesting. This will probably give ammunition to backbenchers entertaining hopes of chairmanships to defend the appointment of two additional Minister of State. It may even solve the consciences of some members of Democratic Left who have been loud and shrill over the past number of years. However, no amount of fancy job descriptions can hide the truth, namely, that this is the first act of hypocrisy of this Administration. It is the first in 1995 and the first for this rainbow coalition, a Government of transparency, openness and accountability. What a start. Over the past seven years I listened to a great deal of hypocrisy from the high moral ground, in particular from members of Fine Gael and the Democratic Left. Fine Gael, in particular, expressed concerns for the taxpayer which reached a crescendo in the run-up to the Cork by-election.
Less than two months ago Fine Gael was against the appointment of programme managers from outside the Civil Service, advisers and mobile telephones. Today the Taoiseach agreed he was wrong. That is the clearest example I know of the differing perspectives one can have when one moves from one side of the House to the other. Fine Gael now support the appointment of programme managers from outside the Civil Service with salaries higher than those paid to Ministers. Democratic Left, who has always been against the idea of having anybody other than Ministers coming into the House, has extended the concept of programme managers to Ministers of State. We heard much during the past few months about Labour's change of heart about the ministerial pay increases. Having enthusiastically supported them initially they then decided they were not popular and said the taxpayers deserved better. The net savings resulting from setting aside this independent arbitration award will be wiped out by the cost of these two extra Ministers of State whom the Government is attempting to appoint today. When you take into account the allowance, the drivers and the mileage that will be paid to the Ministers of State it wipes out what would have been saved by setting aside the Ministerial pay increase. I do not believe the taxpayers are well served by that type of hypocrisy.
Much play has been made of Deputy's Carey's appointment. We are told that it shows the commitment of the Government to the west. Two Ministers at the Cabinet table would show that much better. That type of excuse for the appointment adds insult to injury. There would have been no Minister of State for the west if Fine Gael had succeeded in taking the Leas-Cheann Comhairle position. That is the basis for its commitment to the west. The Taoiseach gave a commitment in writing to Deputy Carey that he would make him Leas-Chean Comhairle. When he discovered he was not able to deliver on that for constitutional and other reasons——
Not true, Deputy.
——he had to change the position and create a very expensive alternative for the Deputy.
The Deputy's claim is untrue.
As we are discussing the position of Ministers I wish to refer to Deputy Rabbitte's elevation to the high chair of the Cabinet. This is another part of the effort to cobble the Coalition together. In this House some months ago, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte, made serious and totally unfounded allegations. To date he has not withdrawn them although I asked the Taoiseach to ask him to do so. He has not apologised to the House or to any person to whom he caused serious stress on the basis of one 'phone call.
The allegations caused the adjournment of the House, consternation in the Attorney General's Office, serious concern in various places throughout the country and forced the Cardinal to issue a statement contradicting the allegation. Deputy Rabbitte refused to go before the committee set up to investigate such matters and refuses to put a statement to the committee. I ask him to come into this House and to be man enough to withdraw the allegation and apologise to those he offended. It is ominous that in the Programme for Government, in the section on Oireachtas reform, most of which was compiled by Fianna Fáil, that the reference to the abuse of privilege in this House, which has become a feature of the House during the past number of years is withdrawn from the draft programme for Oireachtas reform.
On a point of order——
I am about to finish.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I seek your guidance. A statement has been made here and the implication is that Deputy Rabbitte made a declaration about an individual. He made no such allegation. The Deputy said that the Cardinal had to make a statement contradicting what Deputy Rabbitte had said.
He had to respond.
Deputy Rabbitte did not make any allegation in relation to any individual.
That is not a point of order.
If the Deputy has a faulty memory, perhaps I should remind her that Deputy Rabbitte made an allegation that there was a document in the Attorney General's Office that would rock the foundation of the State.
That is right.
Deputy Dempsey, without interruption.
He was not right. This Bill is a bad start for this Government. It shows how cynical it is. It is jobbery of the worst kind and it displays the hypocrisy of Fine Gael and Democratic Left during the past seven years.
I will have to keep my contribution short and sweet as Deputy Batt O'Keeffe wishes to contribute. I wish Deputy Carey and Deputy Doyle well in their promotions. When the original announcement was made the first insult was to Deputy Doyle who was nominated as the first sub. When the legislation is passed she will be given the jersey either this evening or tomorrow. A few weeks later it was announced that there would be a Minister of State with responsibility for the west. It was a few weeks before the Fine Gael Party and their colleagues realised how important it was to have a Minister for the west. We on this side of the House have often been accused of being conservative and slow to learn. Perhaps we can be given a few more weeks to realise the importance and the necessity for this new post.
During the past few weeks we have witnessed a major change in the policies and the stance adopted by Fine Gael and Democratic Left. It is unfortunate that when we are in Government we tend to hold certain views in relation to advisers, or Members of the Dáil seeking election to the European Parliament but in Opposition we take on a different stance.
The Deputy is converting very quickly.
The Fianna Fáil Party is as culpable in that regard as the Deputy's party. The hypocrisy here over the past couple of years is unreal.
In the last few days.
Please allow the Deputy to continue uninterrupted.
One of the first functions the Taoiseach attended was the presentation of the All Stars. Shortly after there was big commotion concerning an Offaly player who had been left out. There was much criticism at the manner in which the team was selected. If the Bruton approach is used, 16 or 17 can be chosen and nobody will be offended.
Kildare have to go to Navan. Maybe Ger Canning will do something about it.
We will put the Deputy in the full forward position and I wish him well.
Deputy Carey is one of the most respected Members of the House and no Member would bear ill-will to any promotion that comes his way. On that score I say congratulations.
The Taoiseach when he was leader of the Opposition said the trappings of Government are much loved and yet abused. At that time he was speaking particularly about the Labour Party. He spoke about the appointment of family members, blood relations, personal buddies as advisers and drivers. Suddenly, when he assumes office Fine Gael becomes involved in continuing the process to which they were opposed in Opposition. The problem is that it leads to further public cynicism. How can the Taoiseach say he is committed to the west when he omitted to mention it when making the original appointments? The position would not have been created if the Taoiseach had not botched Mr. Carey's appointment to the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Unfortunately Mr. Carey was the unwanted child.
A sizeable unwanted child.
Now we have a Minister of State with responsibility for the west and I wish him the best of luck. I hope he realises the ambitions he has set himself. It is important to refer to the reforms that have been signalled by the Government and the four extra Oireachtas committees. In the interests of the public purse those committees could have been taken in under the umbrella of existing committees. This will send out the signal that we have an opportunity to look after all those who have been faithful to us. It is getting so crazy at this stage that the gang of four are likely to get prominent positions. What deeply concerns me is the reckless manner in which the Government face problems when they arise. I recall Deputy Brian Cowen saying, when in doubt leave out. This Government when in doubt, buy out. That is exactly what is happening. If this trend continues it will have grave connotations for the public purse.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Frances Fitzgerald and Deputy Nealon.
I am sure that is agreed. Agreed.
First I wish to comment on the fact that many of your colleagues, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, have remarked on your having retained your position but not one of them expressed joy at that outcome.
Can the Deputy not see from our faces that we are overjoyed?
I hope I would be concluding incorrectly if I say they must regret it because otherwise they would not have this opportunity to use their energy in criticising the Government, something they seem so anxious to do. I wish you well, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for the next two years and, I hope, beyond.
From listening to the debate I can only conclude that some people have very short memories. Deputy Brennan opened his contribution by saying that the appointment of these two Ministers of State is a misappropriation of public funds. In the previous Government this man was Minister of State with prime responsibility to reorganise Fianna Fáil.
It was not his prime responsibility; that is incorrect.
I do not know how he can stand up with any degree of sincerity and make that statement. I will not comment on whether he was successful——
The Deputy should ask the small firms' association about Deputy Brennan's role as Minister of State and she will realise that he was successful in that portfolio.
Deputy Ahern should be allowed continue without interruption.
I will not comment on whether he was successful in such a reorganisation programme — the by-election results provide the answer to that. It is unacceptable for a former Minister of State who had such a function as his prime responsibility to imply that money could be spent better than on appointing two Ministers to look after, respectively, the west and the public service.
One would think that the matter we are debating is unique business. Employers, industrialists and business people on a continuous basis decide whether to curtail or increase their staff and to allocate additional responsibility.
Not at the expense of the taxpayer.
I agree that such decisions merit deep consideration and discussion. However, the questions that should be raised on these appointments are not addressed. What are those questions? They include: are these Ministers of State necessary, can the work be done by other means, are there other areas that merit more attention, are the designated appointees suitable, will the results justify the additional costs, would it be prudent on our behalf not to proceed with such appointments, would it be wise to defer or delay the appointments? These are the logical questions that should be argued and debated in any responsible and reasonable place where such delegation of responsibility is proposed.
Sadly the Opposition has not addressed any of these pertinent matters. Rather, they grasped this opportunity to accuse the Government of cronyism and of creating jobs for their friends. Being of a generous nature, I can understand their position. After all, having unceremoniously put themselves out of office, it is understandable they are now going through a rehabilitation period. Cricitism that a Bill such as this undermines the status, integrity and standing of politicians and that it will cause further cynicism among the public sounds very hollow, especially from a party, as a result of whose actions the very recent past stands out as the most disturbing and scandalous period in our political history.
Fianna Fáil speakers in particular who accuse the Taoiseach of opportunism in the appointment of these two new Minister of State have very short memories because in the dying days of the last Government they appointed everyone and anyone to every vacancy within their brief. There are stories abounding that such was the volume of appointments made that it was necessary for Ministers to burn the midight oil in drawing up the list of Fianna Fáil boys and girls for these jobs.
I raise a very important question: are the appointments necessary? The Opposition has contradicted itself on several occasions on this question. Some say the appointments are not necessary while others say that each position carries so much responsibility one person will not be able to undertake all the duties involved.
That is a joke.
A Minister for the west is necessary and essential. Evidence of this is clear from the outstanding welcome the new ministry has received from all sections of the community. Everybody realises that no place has suffered more from rural decline than the west. This ministry is essential to arrest the decline in population. It is essential for the preservation and enhancment of our cultural and environmental heritage. The Government is committed to western development and rural renewal. Surely, we need one person with special responsibility to co-ordinate the Government's initiatives.
All of us, as Members of this House, have voiced our concern with the supply and quality of public services in remote rural areas, and we have justified our concerns. Surely, it is welcome for the Taoiseach to appoint a Minister who will give priority treatment to such needs. The Minister will play a crucial role not only in saving the west but in ensuring better services and facilities for all rural areas. I welcome the fact that the ministry includes responsibility for island communities who, as has been said in this House, have rarely been represented. Let us, for God's sake give them a chance. Small as they are in number they are a precious part of our community, our heritage and our culture.
The most common criticism by the Opposition of the appointment of a Minister for the west is that it has come too late, that it should have been announced two weeks earlier. I challenge one of these people to answer the question: would they prefer that the Taoiseach did not make the appointment? If they believe there should be a Minister for the west, they should be honest and accept and welcome the appointment.
The second Minister of State will have responsibility for public service reform. This Minister will oversee initiatives that were started by the previous Government. Can anyone here say with conviction that there would be a continuous improvement in the performance of the Civil Service and the wider public service without giving someone responsibility for it? We all know that what is everybody's responsibility is nobody's responsibility. The provision of services to the public and the efficient and effective use of resources is a priority for this Government. The answer to my question as to whether those appointments are necessary is that they are necessary. Deputy McDowell answered that question when, in referring to the responsibilities that will be given to the Minister of State designate, Deputy Doyle, having questioned whether the ministry is necessary, concluded that Deputy Doyle would have too much to do. That is a total contradiction of this previous position. As to whether the appointees are suitable, the answer is an overwhelming "yes".
Nobody disputes that. That is not the issue.
Rarely have two people been greeted with such positive response, with such enthusiasm. All over the west Deputy Carey has been welcomed. Everybody welcomes the appointment of Deputy Doyle because they know that the job will be done. As to whether the appointment will justify the additional cost. I believe it will because, as Deputy Carey has said, we cannot afford to delay the appointment of Ministers to those two very important areas. The appointments should not be deferred. We cannot afford to defer them. I congratulate the Minister for giving such priority to two very important areas. If there are some who believe that those areas should not be the responsibility of a Minister, they should stand up and say so, but they will find very little support for their view among the public.
There is no doubt that the demands of Government always exceed the possibilities. There is not one Deputy or one party in this House who does not wish it was possible to achieve more, who does not at the end of the year look back and point to issues still to be addressed or completed. The agenda for this Government is vast. Tackling unemployment is a key priority. At present hundreds of thousands of people, individuals and families, are affected by unemployment. There are increasing levels of poverty. Child poverty is becoming increasingly a feature of society. This has long-term implications for individuals. There are huge demands for developments in education, health and housing and it is necessary to break the cycle of disadvantage from which many people suffer at present. The Government faces an immense task and I believe all Deputies share the hope that we can make progress. There is an onus on all of us to look at issues with the objective of making as much progress as possible.
There has been a great deal of criticism of the Government since it decided to appoint two additional Ministers of State. Almost all of this criticism has centred on whether certain posts were invented for people rather than on jobs which need to be done. While we all share a common commitment to change it is often easier to engage in knee-jerk reactions and to emphasise the differences between parties through mud slinging rather than by engaging in more complex debates. I regret any public perception that successive Governments have acted other than in a most honourable and meaningful way in allocating responsibilities or in developing the role of advisers. Such decisions are not taken lightly and I am convinced the level of responsibility for Governments is such that new ways of working are necessary. We have to look at the systems in place, analyse them to see if they are the best way of getting jobs done and, if not, change them.
Following the formation of this and the previous Government accusations were made that posts were created, whether at ministerial or advisory level, for all the wrong reasons. It is, of course, easier to debate by cliché, to shout in the Chamber and the media about jobs for the boys and girls and to raise questions about the motivation of those charged with the responsibility for government. It would be foolish to continue the debate in this tone or fashion. If attempts to change a system to meet present and future demands are decried as personal ploys to benefit those close to us or as political opportunism then we risk switching people off from politics completely.
I am appalled by some of the criticism which essentially boils down to an insistence that since there are only so many places then that is how things should remain, regardless of whether the structure is adequate or appropriate to the task. Governments all over the world have had to look at their systems of government because they were not responding quickly enough to meet the changing demands of society. This generation has witnessed an unprecedented rate of change and it is essential that the Government responds in an appropriate way to new issues and tasks and puts appropriate structures in place. We have to look at the tasks facing us and see whether the present structures are adequate. If not, they must be adapted to increase the potential for success.
Clearly Ministers have overall responsibility for their areas but it has long been accepted that junior Ministers have a crucial role to play in ensuring that certain discreet areas of activity are progressed effectively. We have some very good examples of this. This debate is about the creation of two new ministries, one of which will address, among other things, the very important issue of public sector reform. Last night Deputy Doyle gave us very interesting statistics on the number of people in the public sector, the range of services provided and the cost. She also referred to the need to ensure that the public sector is continually reformed and responsive. The other new Ministry will address the equally important question of the rejuvenation of the west. It is not helpful to focus solely on these two new roles; rather we need to examine the entire structure of government and, in particular, the way in which tasks such as those I mentioned are to be tackled. If the structural template has ceased to provide an appropriate framework within which work can be done then clearly there is a need for change.
During the debate I heard some criticism of the role of a Minister of State. This morning's newspapers had some interesting articles on this issue. Some very interesting suggestions have been put forward on how this role can be developed. However, some of the people who have made those suggestions could have changed those roles, reformed the Ministries and reduced or increased the number during the past two years, yet they did not do much in this regard when they had the opportunity. I hope that the more thoughtful comments made about the way in which these posts can be developed and changed will be taken up at a later stage.
There are a number of new departures within the team of Ministers of State which I welcome. For example, the brief of the Minister of State, Deputy Currie, spans the Departments of Justice, Health and Education. For many years people in the child care area said that we needed a Minister who had responsibility in these areas so that a more effective system could be delivered to children and families. The fact that his brief spans three Departments indicates the many needs of children, the complexity of the response and the need to work meaningfully within various Departments.
Members of this House have been calling for many years for reform of the public service and for measures to support the development of rural areas, particularly those in the west. These are jobs which either need to be done or do not need to be done. If they need to be done then the structure needs to be changed, which is what the Government has done. There are many ways in which government can be carried out effectively. No system is cast in stone and no party or parties has the monopoly of good ideas. I congratulate Deputies Doyle and Carey and wish them every success in the years ahead.
It gives me great satisfaction to support this Bill which proposes to appoint Deputies Doyle and Carey as Ministers of State. Naturally I will concentrate on the ministry with responsibility for western development.
Life in the west has always been a struggle for survival and people's resilience, determination and love of the land has ensured that survival. The Government, through the appointment of a Minister of State with responsibility for the west, is providing a leader in this fight for survival. The extent of the present crisis can be seen from cold statistics. Over a 65 year period, between 1926-91, Connacht lost 24 per cent of its population. However, this figure does not tell the whole story. During the same period Leitrim lost a staggering 55 per cent of its population while some of the areas in Sligo lost even more people.
The west can survive only through a massive and planned programme for survival by the Government. The Government has now acknowledged the extent of the problem and it has made a commitment to do something about it. The appointment of Donal Carey is only a start but it brings some hope to the west.
Previously we relied on farmers to sustain the population in the west. Given the emphasis on large farms, I fear we may be witnessing the last generation of small farmers.
The Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, should watch out.
One of the most depressing sights in western counties are recently vacated houses going to ruin, with a cow staring out a window which has a remnant of a curtain hanging. Nothing deteriorates as fast as a locked house. Many houses which have all the necessary services and which are close to all the necessary infrastructure — local schools and churches — are in danger of being deserted due to a lack of people. There must be some scheme under which these houses can be purchased, preserved and made available to people who will maintain the local population.
The west will not be saved by accident but it can be done despite the forces reined against it. The resilience and determination of past generations from the west is still alive. This can be seen from the action plans which have been drawn up by virtually every community in that territory. These plans can do the job but the odds against them are so great that special help is required. An excellent start in this regard is being made by the appointment of Deputy Carey as Minister of State with responsibility for the west. I have known Deputy Carey for a long time and do not know any person with more drive, initiative, dedication and love of the west. I am delighted that the headquarters of the West of Ireland Partnership Board will be located in Sligo. I invite Deputy Carey to locate his Department there and if he moves there at a later stage he will be very welcome.
I wish to share my time with Deputy O'Rourke.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I wish Deputies Carey and Doyle every success. My remarks are not directed at them personally. These appointments are being made for one reason only. When Deputy Bruton realised some weeks before Christmas that he had an opportunity of becoming Taoiseach and of getting Fine Gael into Government he emasculated the role of his party and responsibility for the Department of Finance, Foreign Affairs, Environment and Education was given away without any argument. Since then, the Taoiseach has been trying to create new positions for all the people who have been quite upset by all of these Departments being ceded to the Labour Party and Democratic Left. That is why two new Minister of State positions are to be created by the Government. It is not for high moral reasons or because there is such a demand for them.
I thought Deputy Cullen left the Progressive Democrats.
A light suddenly lit up in the Taoiseach's office and all of these tasks could not be done unless there were two additional Ministers of State.
All of this started on the very day this Government was to be formed. We heard much high minded rhetoric on the plinth of Leinster House, that the only thing that matters is the Programme for Government and how everybody would work together. Issues such as Ministers and programme managers were irrelevant. However, Deputy Rabbitte was about to bring down the Government before it was even put together, so he had to be accommodated and a deal was worked out. He is now a Minister of State with a car and half a salary, but he is sitting at the Cabinet table.
We now must appoint two additional Ministers of State to ensure that the balance within the Fine Gael Party, not the Government — supported by Labour and Democratic Left — is correct and that Deputy Bruton as Taoiseach, can sell the job he has done to the Fine Gael supporters throughout the country.
Only some months ago the Taoiseach and the Fine Gael Party were totally opposed to the idea of programme managers. They regarded it as a waste of time and an abuse of taxpayers' money. All of those arguments were made in the run up to the by-elections in Cork but as soon as they moved across the floor of the House into Government, there was another conversion on the road to Damascus.
I dislike the Taoiseach's suggestion that civil servants and those in the public service do not have the capacity to turn in the political direction in which each Government would wish it to go. The Civil Service and public services have served each Government honourably, regardless of political persuasion, down through the years to the present day. That was proved by the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party when in Government in appointing, with one exception, all of the programme managers from the public service, and rightly so.
If there is to be a debate on the requirements of Government, my party Leader, Deputy Ahern, has suggested that the Ministers and Secretaries Act of 1923, which governs the responsibilities of all Ministers and how Government is run, is out of date. The parameters by which Governments operate, the needs and requirements of each Department and Minister to operate in a modern country, could have been examined in that context. I would have expected the Taoiseach to have brought forward more ideas — if he had them — on the need for additional appointments at Minister of State or programme manager level or on the question of additional committees, the remuneration of chairpersons and all of those involved in the committees; but the first thing he did on entering Government was to forget all he said and abuse the taxpayers by going ahead with the promotion of two backbenchers to the positions of Ministers of State.
In the coming weeks more people will be appointed and additional committees will be set up. Obviously, there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but it only concerned party activists, hacks or whatever title one wishes to put on them. There was no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for the taxpayers. The Taoiseach would be wise to remember what he said some months ago in this House, when he is considering these appointments. The only reason for making them was to accommodate those within his party whom he had disappointed and because he had ceded so many of the major portfolios of Government to members of Democratic Left and the Labour Party in his need to be Taoiseach.
I am happy to contribute to the debate and I regret we have such a short time to conclude but often brevity is the soul of wit and on this occasion I trust it will be so.
I formally congratulate the Minister of State Deputy Hogan on his appointment. He is a friend of many years standing with whom I enjoy an excellent rapport.
I wish to clarify a point made by Deputy Ahearn, who has fled the House, concerning the position of Leas-Cheann Comhairle. She deliberately implied that a deal had been done with regard to the retention of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the appointment of two additional Ministers of State. That is untrue. Our Leader, Deputy Ahern, undertook an extensive study of what was proposed by the then Deputy Bruton. Deputy Bruton proposed that a motion would be put down, on which the House would vote, to the effect that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle had failed in his duties. That was the only way he could have removed him from office. Manifestly that was not so and gradually more and more people came out and said that was not so. The appointment of two new Ministers of State, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with the much praised retention of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in his position.
Speakers on the other side of the House have implied that we do not want Ministers with special responsibility for western, island and rural development or Ministers with responsibility for three Departments, as will be the case with Deputy Avril Doyle. Both Deputy Doyle and Deputy Carey are fine parliamentarians, although Deputy Doyle will have an even more frantic life than she presently enjoys as she races from Department to Department creating great scenes of activity. Nevertheless, Deputies Doyle and Carey are two fine representatives and we should all show approval of individual performances. However, that is not the point. If western, island and rural development, and running between three separate Departments improving services to the public is so important, why were they not among the Taoiseach's first thoughts as he set out to appoint his Ministers of State? He is now saying they are the most important aspects of life and this is what he wanted these fine people for, but why did he not appoint them to their positions at the outset?
On the day Deputy Bruton was elected Taoiseach there was an understandably warm reception of him in this House. He stated at that time: "I want this to be a Government of public service to the people. I want it to be a simple Government which will serve the people well". He has set out on a convoluted path to do so and one of his first tasks was to create more jobs for the boys and girls. How extraordinary. Speakers on the Government side are very good at dishing it out, but they are not very good at taking it.
Deputy O'Rourke is also dishy.
They are very good at telling us what we should have done but what they have done represents a total and cynical abuse of the power of Government because the first tasks the Government has taken on are these supernumerary appointments. I do not criticise the individual personalities but the jobs they will do.
Fine Gael has been seduced down the primrose path of profligacy. They, who were the champions of fiscal rectitude on the right, are suddenly increasing the numbers of Ministers of State so that people will feel comforted. If Fine Gael backbenchers feel disgruntled they should join a committee. If they feel dispossessed, a quango is set up for them. If they feel they should have a job they can become a Minister of State; anything is possible when Deputy John Bruton is Taoiseach.
You did it too, Mary.
I will conclude by recalling a poem from my teaching days by Robert Herrick who was a pastoral poet hundreds of years ago. He said: "Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, old time is still a flying". I say to Fine Gael that the time will fly quickly and the people will mark that the first important step taken by the Taoiseach was to fully repay the party activists, the disgruntled, the dispossessed and the disappointed by giving them a role in Government. What a lovely silly world he will inhabit.
The Order of the House now demands that I call on the Minister to reply. I understand he wishes to give a few minutes of his time to Deputy McGahon.
I congratulate Deputies Carey and Doyle on their new found ministeres. As the only genuine cynic in the House I have to say that in carrying on with this farce——
It is your farce.
As an ex-punter——
Do you not punt any more?
Not any more. I have seen the light. Deputy McCreevy gave me too many losers. I would venture to suggest that when the clock turns full circle and Fianna Fáil are back in Government, we will have 19 Ministers of State, because that is the inevitability of the farce we all engage in. We had some harsh words to say about programme managers and advisers. I still have doubts about those people who could not be elected to cross the road on their own count. However, they are there, and no political party will cut the cord. The likelihood is that when Fianna Fáil go back, they will add more, possibly to accommodate Deputy Martin Cullen in Waterford.
Thank you for the vote of confidence.
I particularly congratulate Deputy Carey, the heckler of the House, a man who has endured much tragedy in recent times but who is totally committed not only to politics but to the west.
My main objective is to raise a flag for the forgotten part of this country, that is, the Border area which has been decimated for the past 25 years because of the war that was fought on our borders. County Louth was literally consigned to hell. Over a quarter of a century, we fell from the pinnacle of success to the abyss of disaster. We have 32 per cent unemployment, double the national rate, and it is regrettable that accommodation was not made for a Minister for the Border region. I exclude myself because the only ministry I would get would be in the Church of Ireland in west Cork. However, I feel a sense of regret that Deputy Boylan, another hard-working Deputy, who is in the Chamber almost on a daily basis, was not recognised.
I look askance and slightly enviously at the tears being shed for the west because the north-eastern part of Ireland has been allowed to fall into serious decay in the past 25 years. The west has what I would describe as the hidden industry of Ireland. It attracts thousands of tourists every year and thousands benefit from meeting the demand for bed and breakfast and the many related activities that attract tourists. I would not deny them that, but they have the beautiful scenery that the east coast does not have.
The Cooley peninsula is lovely.
The Cooley peninsula has beautiful scenery. I do not wish to take up any more of the Minister's time and I would like to congratulate him also on his elevation. The Government should look keenly at the plight of people in the north-east, particularly in my town, a town of over 300,000 people with an unemployment rate that is double the national average. If the Government does not give any part of the country that bit of attention I will be jogging memories from time to time. I would like to see specific initiatives to alleviate the difficulties that exist in the Border areas.
Some weeks ago, when it became clear that the proper government of this State required that Fianna Fáil should leave office and make their contribution to this House from the Opposition benches, I expected that, freed of the need to protect their Ministers, the pent up energy of their long silenced backbenchers would display itself in intelligent, constructive Opposition. From this point of view, this first outing of the party under its new Front Bench is a grave disappointment.
We brought into this House a Bill which made a significant change in the structure of Government by enabling two additional Ministers of State to be appointed. Instead of outlining in a general way the growth and complexity of governmental activity, as was done when the number of junior Ministers was increased by Fianna Fáil Governments, we set out in considerable detail the responsibilities and tasks which it is intended to assign to the new appointees and which they expect to pursue to conclusion during the remaining term of this House. Both the importance of the task and the truncated timescale in which they have to be progressed clearly justify a reinforcement of the political element in our administrative system.
What we have heard from the benches opposite is not an argument that the tasks are either unnecessary or unimportant, but repeated reiteration of newly drafted legends of rivalries within and between parties in Government. What we have seen is a return to the politics of allegation and unsupported assertion and a drawing in of every red herring which occurs to Deputies opposite rather than an attempt to evaluate our proposals or any advocacy of alternatives.
Who wrote this for the Minister? Was it an adviser or a programme manager?
This is the new advisers' first outing.
We will be holding up score cards.
Deputy Cullen should be the last to speak because he has done more U-turns than even Deputy O'Rourke.
I never did any U-turns. The Minister is barking up the wrong tree.
This is a typical Fianna Fáil U-turn. It is significant that almost every Opposition spokesperson acknowledges the need to undertake the work which it is proposed to assign to Deputy Carey. Their complaint about Deputy Doyle's remit seems to focus on its extent and range, not on her ability to discharge it and not on any objection to the detailed programme of work which she outlined. Various speakers concentrated on the undesirability of having 17 rather than 15 Ministers of State. Notwithstanding the attention which speakers devoted to the job descriptions of the existing Ministers of State, none of them, other than Deputy Andrews, suggested any posts that could be dropped or argued that the functions intended for Deputies Carey or Doyle should be assigned to existing portfolios. That Deputy's suggestion that western development should be tagged on to the Department of the Marine or the Department of Tourism and Trade illustrates the narrow view of the potential of the west taken by the previous regime.
I should like to put on record the background to the proposed extension to the number of Ministers of State. First, there is the question of workload. Although it may be something of a cliché to say that the business of Government has grown and continues to grow in size and complexity, this does not render the statement any less true. One has only to consider the responsibilities imposed by the ever expanding corpus of legislation, EC regulations, the requirements of the general public and, not least, by our very ambitious programme set out in the document, A Government of Renewal, to realise that no one Minister could do justice to the full range of his or her responsibilities.
There is a spirit among many political office holders which I might describe as a curious blend of stoicism and machismo. The underlying principle is that no work-load is too great for a Minister and that they should willingly take on board any accretions to their duties without demur. We must have cop on. An overworked Minister is not only running the risk of personal burn out— as some of the Members opposite certainly suffer——
No we do not.
——he or she is also selling the public short. There was political burn-out before Christmas in case Deputy Cullen missed it.
I did not miss it.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Members opposite did not even get to sleep.
It is because of the scope and complexity of ministerial functions that we have considered it necessary, in the case of some Departments, to have more than one Minister of State assigned to them.
The days are long gone — if they ever really existed — when a single Minister could master every aspect of his or her brief.
Not in the case of Fianna Fáil.
To pretend to do so would be to deceive the public. The functions of every Minister can generally be divided into two broad categories: first what might be described as "core functions" which the Minister has responsibility to handle directly; second, there are other, often no less important, functions which may not be quite so central to the role of the Minister. Broadly speaking and allowing for inevitable exceptions, the functions which the Minister would delegate to his Minister of State would generally fall into this secondary category.
The second reason relates to what I might term the "ecology of human resources".
Is that the economy or the ecology of human resources?
The parties in Government are fortunate to have among their elected members people of undoubted talent, intellectual ability, varying vocational backgrounds and experience and differing, yet complementary political insights. It is in the public interest that this resource should not lie fallow but be utilised to the optimum degree.
On a point of order, Sir, will the Minister circulate a copy of this fairy tale so that we can hand it on to our children's children.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Perhaps the Deputy's speech tomorrow might be circulated too.
A third factor is the issue of accountability. There is an enhanced public awareness of the need for the institutions of State to be more answerable to Parliament. This awareness has undoubtedly been heightened by the widespread concern about the issues which are under consideration by the Select Committee on Legislation and Security. The ongoing development of our democracy demands that we broaden the scope of accountability. In this regard, we are committed to the enhancement of the Oireachtas committee system.
Openness, transparency and accountability.
We have announced the outline of our plans to broaden the remit of the Ombudsman and to vest in that office new statutory powers which will enable the Ombudsman to monitor and where necessary, regulate various aspects of the administrative process to ensure that the decision-making process in the public service is opened up. The present measure, by ensuring that Members of the Oireachtas answerable to the Houses for the discharge of public business is brought to a realistic level, forms an integral part of this process of making public accountability more embracing.
The final consideration is essentially political. We are a multi-party Government. In the interests of participation and balance, there is a need to ensure that a reasonable proportion of positions of responsibility are assigned to each of the constituency parties in Government. There is nothing dishonourable about this. It happened before and Members opposite know that ——
The technicolour dreamcoat.
It is a normal and healthy part of the political process.
I am aware that some critics have asked why Ministers delegated so few functions to Ministers of State in the past. The assumption behind this question may be false. The formal legal mechanism whereby Ministers delegate statutory functions to their Ministers of State is a delegation of functions order made under the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1977, brought in by Fianna Fáil. An examination of the functions delegated in the past could indeed convey the impression that only a modest fraction of ministerial power seems to be delegated. The fact is that the greater part of ministerial functions is non-statutory. I was surprised to hear complaints from Deputy Kitt and others about Ministers of State being assigned to several Departments. This is not a new practice, it has been the case since the early days of Ministers of State. As to the difficulties of coping with wider and more disparate portfolios, they did not appear to be beyond the capacity of Deputy Dempsey in the last administration ——
He is a fine fellow.
—— who coped with work in the Departments of the Taoiseach, Defence and Finance. I doubt if anyone in the House would suggest that Deputy Doyle's capacity and competence for hard work is in any way inferior to Deputy Dempsey's.
Deputy Ó Cuív and others complained that the decision to appoint a Minister with responsibility for the west was an afterthought — some weeks after the initial announcement of ministerial responsibilities. There are two essential points in this connection. First, the Fine Gael Party on entering Government was fully aware of the range of organisations and schemes applicable to the west and when our new office-holders took responsibility in different Departments for individual schemes they noticed a co-ordination gap, which blunted the overall effectiveness of these schemes. Since this is a Government which intends to be responsive to identified needs, it was decided to provide co-ordination in the most politically accountable manner possible — by providing a Minister of State for that purpose.
The second point is that my party's chosen timescale for assuming the responsibility of Government would have been after the next general election. In this instance, Government was thrust upon us by the inability of those who formed the previous Government to continue their collaboration or to find even under the new Fianna Fáil leadership a basis for a new Government. While our party had defined objectives for Government, given the urgency with which a responsible and effective Government had to be provided, it was not possible for us to settle in advance of our entry into office every detail of essential changes in the machinery of Government. It was our duty to provide good Government without delay. We have started to provide it and the appointment of Deputies Carey and Doyle will enable us to continue to do so.
As it is now 6.45 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of this day: "That the Bill is hereby read a Second Time, that sections 1 and 2 and the Title are hereby agreed to in Committee, that the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, that Fourth Stage is hereby completed and that the Bill is hereby passed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 61.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Tommy.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan M.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Gallagher, Pat.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- De Rossa, Proinsias.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Eamon.
- Yates, Ivan.
Níl
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Fitzgerald, Liam.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Hilliard, Colm M.
- Hughes, Séamus.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Michael.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Moynihan, Donal.
- Noonan, Michael. (Limerick West)
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Donoghue, John.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Woods, Michael.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett and Ferris: Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and O'Donnell.
Question declared carried.