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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Apr 1995

Vol. 451 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Third Level Education Grants.

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann calls on the Minister for Education to bring forward a comprehensive package of measures to ensure equity for all students attending third level education courses in this country and specifically calls on the Minister to

— provide maintenance grants for post-leaving certificate students,

— increase the rates of student maintenance grants under the higher education grants scheme,

— provide equal treatment for evening students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities,

— provide equal treatment for post-graduate students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities,

— provide equal treatment for mature students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities,

— provide equal treatment for part-time students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities,

— provide equal treatment for students attending the Mater Dei Institute of Education, the Milltown Institute of Theology and Philosophy, the Royal College of Surgeons, the National College of Industrial Relations, the Pontifical University of Maynooth, All Hallows College and other designated colleges in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities and

— introduce specific measures to assist women returning to Higher Education;

and furthermore calls on the Minister to prepare a strategic plan for the development of third level education which would ensure that extra places and adequate facilities are provided to accommodate the projected expansion in third level enrolments."

I wish to share my time with Deputy Coughlan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The fundamental philosophy behind this motion is the pursuit of equality for all students attending third level education courses in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities. It is a philosophy which is all-inclusive, not exclusive. It aims to increase participation rates in third level education among those groups in our society who up to now have not been participants, people who have effectively been excluded from our system of education. The Fianna Fáil philosophy in the educational context has always been a truly egalitarian one. We want to help and assist those currently attending third level courses against great odds whether they be evening, PLC or post graduate students, women returning to education or part-time and mature students. These students have made great financial sacrifices in the pursuit of educational advancement and should not be ignored.

The recent budget package on third level education ignored and excluded these students, discriminated against them and effectively declared them to be second class citizens in our third level educational system. It also exacerbated the degree of inequality in the system. The Minister, through the decision to abolish tax covenants, realised extra resources for educational expenditure over coming years. However, she decided to allocate these resources in one direction only. No attempt was made to distribute them in an equitable way or to include the category of students referred to in the motion. In my speech I will deal primarily with the plight of the PLC, evening, mature, part-time and post-graduate students, while my parliamentary colleagues will deal with the need to increase the basic rates of maintenance grant, the students attending designated colleges such as the Mater Dei Institute and the need to prepare a strategic plan to accommodate expanded enrolments in third level education.

Without question, the forgotten people in our educational system in so far as the Minister for Education is concerned are the post-leaving certificate students. This sector has witnessed the most exciting and radical developments in education for decades. A wide range of courses is provided including horticulture, fashion, art, sailing, computing, business, health, equitation, estate management, music management etc. A particular feature of this phenomenon has been the degree to which these courses have been developed locally and are firmly rooted in the community. For years people referred to the need for curriculum development at a local level and the PLC phenomenon put flesh on that concept. It allowed many teachers to become creative again, to explore, experiment and inject a new energy and sense of purpose into their lives. Dynamism, energy and innovation have been the hallmark of the PLC development. Most importantly, these courses are closely related to market needs and linked to employment needs and opportunities. Most of the teachers involved in these courses have developed strong links with business, which interaction provides opportunities not only for work experience but for eventual employment in the marketplace. To her shame, the Minister has ignored this phenomenon.

There are approximately 17,500 students attending post-leaving certificate courses this year. The Minister has estimated that 20,000 places will be available in this sector next year. Yet students attending these courses receive no maintenance grants and, despite the resources realised by the abolition of tax covenants, the Minister is refusing to use some to provide financial support for these students. This injustice is further highlighted by the fact that even though the courses are ESF-funded no maintenance grant is available to PLC students, yet maintenance grants are available to students on ESF funded courses in regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology. In addition, many students have to travel to PLC courses which are located in centres such as the College of Commerce in Cork, Ballyfermot Senior College, Dún Laoghaire Community College, Inchicore College, etc. Students on FAS and CAO-CAS courses can avail of financial support. The PLC sector is now the only public education sector whose students have to fund themselves entirely. These students have to pay rent, buy food and books and meet travel expenses. Some PLC courses last three years and students are finding it increasingly difficult to survive.

I have spoken to the representatives of students in this area who have recounted sad and distressing stories of students who have dropped out before the completion of their courses and of students working late at night in pubs and supermarkets in an effort to eke out an existence for themselves, often to the detriment of their studies. Why is the Minister so callous and uncaring in her attitude to these students? She may argue that she will abolish fees for these courses but that is a cynical con job which has fooled nobody. It can even be argued that the abolition of these charges will have a detrimental impact on the PLC colleges which urgently require capital funding to update equipment and provide extra places to accommodate increasing student numbers. The abolition of these charges will rob them of a useful revenue base which facilitates such necessary advancement.

Considerable confusion surrounds this proposal. Various charges have developed in PLC courses and some students are charged £25 to £35 to cover materials and services, some are charged up to £70 while others are charged nothing at all. However, some fees are payable to professional bodies such as auctioneering, accountancy and marketing institutes and it is still unclear whether these will continue. The crucial issue for these students is the provision of maintenance grants, not the abolition off fees. Essentially the Minister's decision to abolish university fees will save some families up to £2,500 per year, irrespective of how wealthy they are, while the families of PLC students may save up to £70 per year. This is the Labour Party's concept of equality and fair play.

The absurdity of this situation was best summed up by Christina Murphy in an article in the Education and Living supplement to The Irish Times, in February:

Then we will continue to have a situation whereby a student from a family with an income of say £16,000 will qualify for a maintenance grant to go to Trinity, but a student with a family income of £8,000 would get no maintenance to go to Ballyfermot Senior College; it will actually be cheaper to go to university than to a PLC course, which is absurd considering the whole idea of PLC courses was to cater for those who did not make the points to get into university.

I call on the Minister to respond positively to our motion and to provide maintenance grants to PLC students.

One way of reducing inequality in higher education and increasing participation rates by those in disadvantaged and lower socio-economic groupings in our society is by adequately funding and resourcing mature students attending third level education. The Higher Education Authority's steering committee technical working group undertook research in this area and made a number of important recommendations. In 1993-94 there were 6,665 mature entrants to higher education, of whom 1,697 were full-time and 4,968 were part-time. It is estimated that mature entrants represent about 16 per cent of all higher education entrants, including part-time and full-time entrants.

The Minister made no provision in the budget for mature students but essentially ignored their plight. The Higher Education Authority's report stressed the need to make proper provision for mature, second-chance students and saw such provision as a second and final attempt to address serious inequality in third level education. The report's research indicated that the socio-economic profile of mature students is different from that of non-mature students. There is a stronger concentration of lower middle class groups in the mature student population and a weaker concentration of higher professionals, farmers and skilled manual workers in particular. Studies by the group also revealed that, while mature students may pursue higher education for personal fulfilment, the majority do so to enhance their employment and career prospects. In a study on full-time mature students it was found, for example, that only 31 per cent were employed, 19 per cent were registered unemployed while 26 per cent were unemployed but not registered and 15 per cent were working full time in the home without pay.

The group report underlines the importance of this sector in helping to eliminate disadvantage. It states:

What is clear from the data available therefore is that full-time provision for mature students in higher education is catering principally for relatively disadvantaged lower middle class people who may have the Leaving Certificate or some other form of professional or occupational qualifications but who are unemployed or not in secure employment.

Notwithstanding this, however, those from the lowest socio-economic group are still only minimally represented among mature students. The report cites the absence of pro-active policies within the higher education sector, including adequate financial support for part-time study, flexible modes of delivery and assessment procedures and adequate support and guidance services as factors in making it extremely difficult for economically and socially disadvantaged mature students to enter into and succeed within the system. Furthermore, the committee's research indicates that lack of adequate financial resources is the principal difficulty experienced by full-time mature students while attending higher education.

The working group believes strongly that an enhanced level of grant should be introduced for mature students from low income backgrounds and, in addition, that low income part-time students need to have fees paid and be given adequate maintenance support on a pro rata basis. It was also noted that mature students have financial problems arising from their adult-related commitments. The report recommended that the special costs involved for mature students with dependent children should be taken into account in any revised grant support scheme and that individual family circumstances would need to be taken into account in determining eligibility for, and level of, grant support. It is felt that women were likely to have caring commitments and it was recommended that the unique problems women have in returning to higher education should be systematically addressed when developing grant arrangements. The unique requirements of minority groups, such as travellers and people with disabilities, will also have to be addressed.

Primarily, the research of the working group indicated that one of the biggest problems facing the socially and economically disadvantaged mature student entering higher education was reaching a stage educationally, psychologically and economically at which they were in a position to apply. To deal with this, the working group recommended the development and increased resourcing of the adult, community and further education sectors, so that alternative entry routes to higher education are fully available to those in need of a second chance.

In the context of that research, it is extraordinary that the Minister essentially ignored these recommendations in putting together her budgetary package, excluded a sector of education which offers opportunities for social inclusion and progression and which has the capacity to break down class barriers in higher education. She also ignored the recommendations of another report on mature students, the de Buitléir report on the higher education grants system, commissioned by her.

Mature students on part-time or evening courses are not entitled to any maintenance grant; those studying in full-time day courses are eligible for the higher education grant. The problem, however, is that regardless of age, mature students are means-tested on their parents' income if they live at home. As many mature people giving up a job to go to college would move back to their parents' homes, this is a real catch 22 situation.

The de Buitléir report recommends that mature applicants over the age of 25 years should be means-tested on their own income regardless of residence. It is disappointing that this has not yet happened. In Northern Ireland students can get additional grants for spouse and child support. In short, as pointed out by Olive Keogh in an excellent article on mature students in the Education and Living supplement of The Irish Times of 14 March “... for people already working or recently unemployed, the financial support to upgrade their qualifications is woefully inadequate.” She concluded by stating that for many mature people considering going to college to upgrade their qualifications “the prospects are very bleak indeed.”.

There was considerable anger and disbelief by mature students at the decisions to exclude them from the Minister's budgetary package. A mature evening law student at UCC who, because she is classified as part-time, is excluded from the Minister's fees abolition programme stated:

I think the decision is very unfair and I am both angry and disappointed that a Labour Minister who should be the first to redress social inequality should have introduced such an arbitrary measure.

Another student who is studying for a BA by distance learning at a cost of just over £4,000 was equally annoyed and indignant, pointing out that distance education is indispensable in that it allows people access to education who could not achieve a degree by any other method. An evening Arts student at UCD made the valid point that the term part-time student is essentially a misnomer. She attends college four nights a week and has practically as many lecture hours as a day student doing exactly the same degree courses. She articulated her anger in a most forthright fashion by stating:

... We are absolutely outraged at the way we have been treated by the Minister. This is blatant discrimination and we are amazed that a Government with Labour and Democratic Left who consider themselves egalitarian could support such a two tier system.

I quoted from the comments of students who are angry at the Minister's policy of exclusion and elitism. Their anger is honestly and profoundly felt, and justified. I have also quoted from reports undertaken by the Higher Education Authority on the Minister's behalf. Yet she has chosen to ignore the de Buitléir and the HEA's working group reports. In the budget and in her fees abolition proposals, she pre-empted their work and in the process created the basis for new and greater inequities in the system.

The Minister's approach is similar in relation to part-time students in higher education. The interim report of the HEA's steering committee's technical working group included useful research and work in this area based on a study on participation of part-time students in higher education. It took as its starting point the OECD definition of part-time students in higher education as those who are enrolled in a programme of study organised in such a way that they are able to undertake another activity either full-time or part-time. The data available proved to be completely inadequate for the task and the Department should deal with this immediately. Its findings show that in the academic year 1992-93 almost 24,000 students were registered for part-time third level courses, of which almost 60 per cent were in the regional technical college-DIT subsector. By far the greatest concentration occured in the main urban areas, with about 75 per cent of students living within 15 miles of the college attended. The majority of students attended in the evenings and at weekends. The research indicates that almost 90 per cent of participants were in employment and almost all cited career-related reasons for their participation. Professional upgrading is the predominant objective of participants.

The report echoes the sentiments expressed by students that the definition of part-time education and the sharp distinction drawn between it and full-time education is difficult to sustain. There are significant variations in required hours of attendance between faculties for full-time courses and there are also wide variations in the required hours of attendance for different part-time courses. Indeed, weekly or yearly hours of attendance for part-time courses may be equivalent in some instances to those for full-time students, qualifications may be obtained within the same time scale for both. The distinctions will become even more blurred as time progresses and technologies develop.

Participation in part-time higher education is good for the economy and very cost-effective. The funding mechanism for part-time education is inadequate particularly for the regional technical college's and the Dublin Institute of Technology. Subsequently in many cases part-time courses will be provided only where they are self-financing. This places a particular burden on part-time students who cannot qualify for means-tested grants.

The working group made two important recommendations calling for a comprehensive review of funding arrangements with a view to (a) achieving a more equitable basis of funding institutions in respect of part-time and full-time on a course to course basis and (b) bringing part-time students within the student grant system to permit them to qualify on a proportionate basis for means-tested grants. Better facilities are also required for this sector, in particular more induction and study skills courses are necessary for part-time students, particularly for those coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, and more extensive guidance should be provided relating to college services. In addition, as part-time students may have more family and community ties, consideration should be given to franchising Outreach centres and to enhancing the provision of distance education.

In her budgetary package the Minister again ignored the research, work and recommendations of the technical working group in relation to part-time students. They were excluded and no specific measures were introduced to improve their neglected situation.

The Minister also discriminated against postgraduate students in the most appalling manner. It also seems extraordinary that the Minister would not have been aware of the work being undertaken by the Science, Technology and Innovation Advisory Council whose recently published report highlighted very serious under-provision in the post-graduate area. The report put forward a host of recommendations affecting business, higher education, State agencies and the Government. It proposed the establishment of a Cabinet sub-committee to deal with matters of science and technology, particularly to settle budgetary and Estimates issues, and to establish national priorities. One wonders whether, if this committee had been established prior to this year's budget, the fees abolition proposal would have gone ahead in the manner and form it did or whether postgraduates would have been so excluded and discriminated against. Would the Minister have been allowed to allocate the entire resources to be realised from the abolition of convenants to one sector only, to the exclusion of so many others? If Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte were honest with us he would no doubt say no.

The report painted a damning picture of under-provision in the postgraduate area. The report recommends that basic research funding for higher education should be increased from £1.5 million to £6 million per year and a further £5 million should be made available to redress the deficiencies in research equipment. Furthermore, it argued that each PhD scholarship should be funded at a level not less than £3,000 per year. If one listens to any postgraduate student in this area one will hear tales of obsolete equipment, poor library facilities, overcrowded laboratories and inadequate research grants. The recent budget served only to worsen the situation for postgraduate students. They will still have to pay their fees and will not benefit from the budget proposals. Parents who were convenanting to postgraduate children will lose the convenant savings and will gain nothing as their fees have not been abolished.

The Minister has even ignored the deliberations of the National Education Convention. In the report on the deliberations of the convention the following conclusion was made:

It is a matter of great concern that support for post-graduate research students has declined in recent years. Convention participants felt strongly that there was a need for significantly greater support for post-graduate research. It was argued that the amount of money required was not large and that the universities and society as a whole got a very good return for the money invested in this area.

Why bother to have such conventions? Why bother to consult? Why bother to claim an interest in consensus while continually ignoring the recommendations of a convention, the establishment of which resulted in such kudos for the Minister?

I agree with the report's conclusion that the research capacity of the higher education system is an important national resource and that for the future it is imperative that priority be given to developing its research potential. If only the Minister could have allocated such priority to the sector in the recent budgetary package on education. At The National Education Convention a very significant presentation was made by the Department of Education outlining the cost of educational reforms and change. The Secretary of the Department presented a schedule of illustrative costings stating that most of these "reflect the proposals at the convention". They are also implied by proposals in the Green Paper on Education and Government policy. On aggregate they amounted to an extra £478 million. The Secretary of the Department drew the following conclusion, "Significant improvements in the education system are expensive, education is competing for resources with other policy areas and expenditure and taxation". He concluded that there would be a need for prioritisation among desirable inputs. The secretariat also concluded that there was "striking concordance of view that serious and sustained action needed to be taken to remedy various features of inequality of education". It was also agreed that a policy of prioritising and targeting areas of most urgency or fundamental need is necessary if real progress is to be made.

It is a pity the Minister did not take on board the views and opinions expressed at the National Education Convention in relation to prioritisation, targeting and the eradication of inequality. Her budgetary package did not reflect the most equitable use of resources. It was not fair and excluded too many students in different sectors of our third level educational system, particularly sectors which offer opportunities for advancement for lower socio-economic groups and people who have not traditionally been participants in higher education.

Many hailed the 1992 general election as a significant one for the Irish Labour Party. It certainly was significant in a numerical sense, with extra votes and seats. In retrospect it was also significant in terms of the evolution of that party. No longer does it cling to its alleged historic mission of creating genuine equality, of being a voice for the marginalised, disadvantaged and less well off. It has jettisoned the egalitarian principles of Connolly and Larkin. It is now a party controlled by its new electoral configuration. Its acquired electoral base now determines its policies. Its guiding principle is the retention of votes and seats, not the social and economic advancement of our people. Nowhere is this more manifest than in its educational policies.

Fianna Fáil since its foundation has always given pride of place to education. We have always believed in the principle of equality of opportunity in education, and it is in that spirit we put this motion before the House tonight.

There are two strands to the motion before us. The first is equity and the second is strategy. The Minister does not seem keen on either. Equity is one of those respectable buzz words — there should be equity, equality and parity. Parity of esteem is etched out on the tablets of stone which we have been given from the Mount Sinai of the Framework Document. However, around Mount Errigal, and also Sleive League, people know what lack of parity means.

There has always been a great hunger for education in Ireland, and the more peripheral the area the greater the hunger. Parents were prepared to make great sacrifices to ensure that their children had the opportunity of availing of further education. For many years that involved paying fees to allow them to attend post-primary schools, paying the cost of books, foregoing the wages that young people might otherwise have brought to the home, and paying boarding costs. As Minister for Education, the late Donogh O'Malley changed that nearly 30 years ago. He removed fees from second level schools, but he did more, he extended provision for school books for those who could not otherwise afford to buy them and, most significantly, he introduced the school transport scheme, the yellow buses that brought the children in rural areas to school. Times have changed and needs have changed. Thirty years on we have one of the highest particiption rates to leaving certificate level of any developed country. Young people now need the education and training provided at further and higher education institutes and universities.

The Minister has decided, with the limited resources at her disposal, to take the blunderbuss approach to third level provision and divide what she thinks is the cost of covenants among all full-time day students in the universities and colleges that come to her mind at the time of decision — she can write herself into the history books. She will succeed in that. She will be remembered as having resources never previously available to a Minister for Education, as a Deputy who had the good fortune to be Minister for Education in a period when sound and prudent financial management over a number of years resulted in sufficient funding to make major advances in the provision of third level education. The Minister has also come to the Department of Education at a time when much of the groundwork had been done by her predecessors. Instead of equity and fairness she has operated on the principle that to those who have enough more shall be given. She has ignored the long-term needs of the people in pursuit of what she hopes will be short-term electoral gain. She has also put immediate tactical advantage before development and implementation of a long-term strategic plan for the development of third-level education. The net result will be unequal treatment for the socially and geographically disadvantaged, the older student, post graduates, women returning to education and particularly post-leaving certificate students. When she discriminates against the Royal College of Surgeons which has a long and worthwhile tradition of providing medical education for students from developing countries she completes the picture.

Young people who wish to be a teacher should be wary with regard to the subjects they want to teach. They should not pick religion, as the Mater Dei Institute of Education will not be included in the free fees scheme. Why should the Pontifical University in Maynooth be excluded? When did any previous Minister for Education manage to discriminate on the grounds of income, age, sex, race and religion in one single measure? Part of the Minister's problem is that she does not understand the country outside her constituency in the backwoods of Blackrock and Dún Laoghaire. I am aware that she has toured the country making grand speeches but she moves on before she has time to hear of the issues facing students and parents. Someone said to me recently that she should stay and listen.

That is incorrect and I will answer with great enthusiasm, when the Deputy should listen.

Parents in Country Donegal will tell the Minister that it is expensive to send children to college. This is borne out by the report of the Higher Education Authority technical advisory group which points out that the rate of acceptance of places on degree courses in Border areas is very low whereas the rate of acceptance of places on diploma courses is highest in the midlands, Border areas and the west. The reason for this is very simple: it is easier to gain access to places in regional technical colleges than to places in university. The universities are too far away and accommodation is too expensive.

If the take-up of places on certificate and diploma courses at regional technical colleges is high the less well off family should find it easier to keep a student on for a year or two on a post-leaving certificate course in a school which is only a few miles down the road. It would be easier if the Minister provided maintenance grants for PLC students. Two students could take the same course, say, in business studies or accounting technician, one in a regional technical college, the other in a vocational school as part of a post leaving certificate course, with one in receipt of a maintenance grant. This is not fair. When the Minister decided to revise the financial arrangements she should have eliminated this anomaly. In the past if parents were paying significant amounts of tax they could have provided for their PLC students through a tax covenant and obtain a measure of support but this is no longer an option.

PLC courses are of particular importance to students from families who do not have a strong tradition of pursuing higher education. These courses are market driven and relate to real jobs in the areas where the courses are provided. They are proof of those who are sceptical about staying on in education that qualifications lead to jobs.

If a student secures part-time work, to help meet the cost he should be careful about which shift he works. If the student studies by day and works the evening shift in a pub, for example, he will have free education. On the other hand, if he works the day shift behind the bar and attends classes at night he will pay full fees. It is easy to talk about young people having a right to higher education; they have that right but they need the means. Donogh O'Malley recognised that when he provided for school transport he was providing the means by which parents and children could exercise their right to education. Many students in County Donegal today would not be able to exercise their right to third-level education without McGeehan's bus.

Did the Minister ever see the stream of young people walking past the Department of Education on a Friday evening, laden down by text books and the week's washing, heading home for the weekend? Did she ever see them return on a Sunday night, with provisions for the week, usually stolen from the cupboard and clean laundry, ready to start another week at college? The cost of travel, accommodation, food, clothes and books is heavy for families with one or more students at third-level. The cost is particularly heavy for families just above the income limits for grants. They have a right to expect that they will be treated fairly by the State but they have not been treated fairly by the Minister.

That brings me to the second thread running through the motion this evening — strategy. The Minister has been unfair to PLC, evening, mature and part-time students, women returning to education and to students who attend the institutions listed in the motion. She does not have a coherent strategy to improve third-level facilities. We all realise there are complex questions in education to which there are few easy answers but the Minister is required to make her best effort. This was not her best effort; rather it was rushed, too clever by half and wrong. Ba chóir don Aire suí síos anois chun na ceartúcháin a dhéanamh. The Minister should make her corrections and make up to all of those she has treated unfairly since she announced the abolition of third-level fees. It is very easy to score political points in this House——

The Deputy would not do that; she is the human face of Fianna Fáil.

That is exactly what I was going to say.

Those who have been excluded do not find it very funny.

We have a human face and that is the reason Fianna Fáil believes this motion is more than important. I sincerely hope that, during her tour of duty over Easter, parents and students will tell the Minister what Deputy Martin and I have been saying to her, that she has lost a wonderful opportunity to make a difference. There has been much talk about reform and there are great opportunities to be grasped in the field of education but the amendment to the motion is not relevant and says nothing. It skips over some of the difficult questions and makes no reference to many of the categories we feel have been treated unfairly. We look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say but, if she fails to address in a positive and coherent manner the many questions we have put to her, students, parents and those who wish to pursue a career in education will not be happy. I support the motion.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Seán Ryan and Gallagher.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

Dáil Éireann commends the Government decision to abolish tuition fees for undergraduate students and for post-leaving certificate students as the first response to the commitment given in A Government of Renewal policy document that there will be new support mechanisms to increase participation by third-level students from low-income backgrounds, including the abolition of third-level fees, a comprehensive reform of the higher education grants scheme, the introduction of support for students on post-leaving certificate courses and an increase in the number of third-level places.

I am happy to speak on this motion. I regard equality of educational opportunity as a key principle underpinning our education system. This motion affords me the opportunity to review the actions I have taken to improve access to third-level education generally.

The action which I have taken in abolishing third-level fees fulfils a policy commitment given in A Government of Renewal policy agreement, a programme agreed by the Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left parties. This decision confirms the Government's commitment to promoting the ambitious agenda of achieving greater equality in the distribution of the benefits of third-level education.

We have to see the abolition of third-level fees as part of the overall funding of higher education. At the moment the Government pays almost £300 million to third-level colleges through a block grant. More than half of all students already obtain fee grants. Thus, the Government provides three-quarters of all university funding and more than 90 per cent of funding of regional colleges. Most courses in the regional colleges are funded by the European Social Fund and no fees are charged for those courses. Income tax covenant relief amounts to £34 million foregone in revenue this year.

Most of the costs of ensuring access to third-level education are borne by the Exchequer. However, the present system is confusing, complex and arguably leads to serious distortions, inefficiencies and inequities. The Exchequer is already meeting most of the costs of participation at third-level but in an inefficient, inequitable and regressive way.

Although more than half of all students get fee grants, there is a real problem of lack of public confidence in the higher education grant schemes, which are perceived as unfair. This perception is reinforced by data emerging from the steering committee on the future development of the higher education sector which indicates that in the period 1986-92 participation rates for lower professional and salaried employees actually declined despite the fact that overall participation rates were increasing. Thus, abolition of fees is fairer — it is seen to ensure equal treatment for full-time undergraduate students from all backgrounds.

What about the other students?

There have been calls in response to my free initiative that fees for postgraduate students and part-time students should also be abolished and that the initiative should be extended beyond the institutions already announced.

It is worth remembering that, whereas free fees has been a feature of third level education in the UK for about 50 years, the authorities there have not yet extended the benefit of free fees to post-graduate students.

At undergraduate level, there is increasing difficulty, given the evolution in course structures — modular courses, distance education courses, etc. — in sustaining meaningful distinction between what are part-time and full-time courses. In the past, this distinction for the most part, was quite straightforward. It is increasingly the case that the distinction is becoming more blurred and less clearcut. I will keep the whole concept of part-time courses under active review in the context of the operation of support schemes for third-level students. Thus, abolition of fees for full-time undergraduate students is part of a wider strategy as outlined in the programme. A Government of Renewal. This strategy includes the continuing reform of the student support schemes which now relate mainly to maintenance at undergraduate level.

Since I became Minister for Education I have implemented the following: I increased the income limits in 1993 by 3.4 per cent in line with the average increase in industrial wages; I increased the maximum tuition fee grant limit for courses covered under the higher education grants scheme and vocational education committee scholarships scheme by 10 per cent to £2,200; I gave discretion to the awarding bodies, for the first time, to renew grants and scholarships for repeat years, in exceptional circumstances, in cases of certified serious illness; I arranged for a thorough review of all the relevant scheme documentation to be carried out, I ensured that the schemes were redrafted and simplified and that the application form was redesigned.

In 1994 I introduced a further increase in the maintenance grant in line with inflation and in the income eligibility limits in line with wage movements; I abolished the two grade Cs requirement to satisfy the academic requirements of the scheme; I introduced new rules for second chance cases — this to ensure that students who did not complete studies at a particular level will be eligible to apply for grants to study again at the same level after an interval of five years — and I provided a discretionary budget to set up a hardship fund with the third-level institutions.

All very minimalist.

I ensured the earlier issue of the student support schemes to the local authorities-VECs at the end of April 1994; in 1993, the schemes issued in mid-August. This earlier issue will happen again this year. In due course I also propose to implement in due course more fundamental improvements to the administration of student support associated with the processing of grant applications and payments by a single office. These measures will further improve the service to students.

The abolition of fees for PLC students is being effected at an estimated annual cost of £2 million per annum. My Department will provide more than £37 million this year towards the running costs of PLC courses in addition to this extra £2 million.

There has been reference to the issue of extending maintenance grants to PLC students. However, the provision of a means-tested maintenance grant scheme for PLC students along the lines of the higher education grants scheme would cost at least another £10 million annually.

So they get nothing.

I will keep the position of PLC students under review in the context of the resources available to me and decisions about the best use of the overall funding available for education. As Minister, I have been active in enhancing the profile of post-leaving certificate courses; in launching national certification and assessment at level 2 for the first time in 1994; in supporting the ongoing work of the National Council for Vocational Awards, which received almost a 70 per cent increase in 1995 over 1994 levels of funding; in the developments under way to establish a National Education and Training Certification Board and through making funds available for staff development, capital investment and the abolition of fees.

There has been a dramatic increase in participation in third-level education in Ireland since the mid-1960s. Total full-time enrolments increased from 23,000 in 1967 to almost 88,000 for the 1993-94 academic year. Moreover, they are projected to continue to increase and will reach in the order of 120,000 in the year 2005.

It was during the 1980s that the main increase in participation began. Enrolments have more than doubled since 1980 from 42,000 to almost 88,000 today. Our membership of the EU has contributed greatly to increased participation. Funding from the Structural Funds for national certificate and diploma courses in the non-university sector has been a major factor in the increased participation rates. This is reflected in the enrolments in the non-university sector which increased from 11,000 in 1980 to 35,000 for the 1993-94 academic year, an increase of more than 300 per cent.

Direct Exchequer support for students has also grown in importance. During the 1981-82 academic year 32 per cent of students received grant aid, by 1993-94, this had grown to 60 per cent.

This year I made provision for a further increase in third-level places by increasing by 9 per cent the grants in respect of the running costs of regional technical colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology; developing the commitment in A Government of Renewal programme to establish a regional college in Dún Laoghaire and the Tipperary Rural Business Development Institute; increasing the vocational education committee scholarship provision by 13 per cent; and increasing the provisions for ESF student grants by 14 per cent.

I am planning for the need for third-level places in the future. That is why I established a steering committee under the aegis of the Higher Education Authority in 1993 to advise me on the future development of the higher education sector in Ireland. The steering committee has the following terms of reference: (a) to prepare projections to the year 2015 of the total potential enrolments in higher education; (b) to formulate best estimates of appropriate balance in the sector, in terms of intake and total student numbers; (c) within the overall national context, examine the needs for higher education on a regional basis and the appropriateness of the current institutional provisions by region to meet the needs; and (d) having regard to the continuing high demand for places from school leavers and the growing demand from mature students, make recommendations as to the appropriate weighting to be given to mature students in admissions policies. The committee will also prepare draft integrated proposals for the provisions of third-level education facilities.

The technical working group established to support the steering committee has already reported to the steering committee and its report has been published. I am now awaiting the report and recommendations of the steering committee together with the views of the Higher Education Authority. I am confident its advice will chart the directions of a broad-ranging strategic plan for the development and expansion of the third-level educational system well into the next century.

The continuing increase in numbers of third-level places is only one part of the overall picture. The problem of the under-representation of lower socio-economic groups in third-level education is not one which will readily be resolved by merely injecting additional resources into third-level student support. In the absence of measures to address retention of pupils from disadvantaged groups in second level education, significant increases in the level of existing student support grants will have only a marginal impact on the inequitable patterns of participation.

To achieve this retention a range of initiatives is being and has been put in place. These include targeting of resources on disadvantaged areas, including intervention at pre-school level; the provision of educational support services for students in psychological and guidance services, career guidance, remedial teachers; the continuing development of the home-school liaison service; a major restructuring of the senior cycle curricula to adapt them to the needs of the wider spread of ability levels and backgrounds proceeding to senior cycle and the introduction, through the establishment of the National Education and Training Certificate Board, of alternative pathways for students to progress to post-second level education and training.

The importance for students of completion of second-level education is emphasised in the findings of the recent ESRI report —Poverty and Time: Perspectives on the Dynamics of Poverty— in its finding that “the risk of poverty ... is about five times as high for someone with no qualifications as it is for someone with the Leaving Certificate”. The operational programmes for the use of Structural Funds contain resource provision for a range of initiatives, ranging from early childhood intervention programmes, up to restructuring of the senior cycle with the objective of having a 90 per cent completion rate of senior cycle education by the end of the decade. As this objective is attained the participation rates of students from lower socio-economic backgrounds in third-level will inevitably increase.

I would say to Deputy Martin that while his obituary of the Labour Party was amusing, his comments undermine the seriousness of this debate. The Labour Party will answer for itself and to the electorate. Mention was made of my journeys — my pilgrimages as I describe them — the annual pilgrimages of the Minister for Education. I have already attended a number of meetings and I will shortly set out on my third pilgrimage. I will listen to what people say, I will arrive exactly on time and I will leave at the time agreed with the national organisation that invites me. I would say to Deputy Coughlan that when I last visited her constituency in Donegal, I arrived on time, addressed the meeting and met the deputation, but I did not stay for a second cup of tea because I wanted to continue my journey across Ireland, to visit schools in Sligo and Leitrim.

There are one million students participating in the education system on a daily basis. That is a very large remit for any Minister for Education. When I travel around the country I meet Deputies — I met Deputy Martin in Cork——

Much to the chagrin of the Labour Party election candidate who did not want me there.

As I travel around the country I listen to the teachers and other people whom I meet and respond to them.

The Minister brings only Labour Party Deputies with her. She tells them in advance that she will meet them.

The Minister should be allowed continue without interruption.

As Minister for Education I am responsible for an investment in excess of £2 billion. Without the spirit of partnership established at the National Education Convention, with which I am honoured to be associated, I would not be able to assure Deputies on the other side of the House that we are moving forward together into the next century for the benefit of the students about whom we are rightly concerned. I intend to ensure, that when we reach the next millennium, students now participating in the STAR programme in highly disadvantaged areas will be participating in the third-level sector, a sector that is vital for our economic future.

Will the Montessori teachers be participating?

I am confident that the wide range of measures the Government has taken will encourage students to remain in education, will facilitate their paticipation at third-level and will enhance their chances for the future. Education is a long term investment; it is not a ministry with overnight solutions. I presided over the Department of Education also in 1993 and 1994. This year we are putting in place a programme in which all sides of the House and all partners in education have participated. I am confident we are planning for a successful future for the citizens for whom we have responsibility. The measures I have outlined represent a comprehensive and coherent response to the commitment in the programme for A Government of Renewal to increase participation by third-level students from low income backgrounds.

I look forward to the rest of this debate and thank the Opposition for paying attention to my remarks. No doubt we will be able to conclude the debate tomorrow evening having taken on board some of the suggestions that have been made in keeping with the priorities in the Department of Education. As increased moneys are made available to the Department we will respond first to those in most need.

I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this motion as education plays a significant role in bringing about equality in society. Recently, I read disturbing statistics in a document entitled Education and Poverty by the Conference of Religious of Ireland stating that up to 8,000 young people leave school each year with poor formal educational qualifications, or none. In some areas of extreme deprivation more than 25 per cent of those leaving primary school have serious literacy and numeracy problems. I understand this problem is countrywide and not confined to urban areas, which is the perception. Conversely, students from high socio economic backgrounds are more likely to attain a leaving certificate than those from unskilled or semi-skilled backgrounds. These stark statistics must be addressed as, unfortunately, they represent our children. We must ask whether our education system — which cost £2 billion in 1993 — has failed. I do not go that far but the resources should be redirected.

I compliment the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach, on her achievements since becoming the first Labour Minister for Education in 1992. In this short period she has put the emphasis on additional general resourcing and specific targeting of those resources at primary and second level. The Minister is providing more money per head targeted at disadvantaged schools at primary and second level. In 1992 the capitation grants for primary schools was £28 per student and this has been increased to £40 per student. In disadvanataged areas the capitation grant has been increased from £45 to £60 per student and at second level the capital grant was increased from £158 to £165 in 1995. These increases have been welcomed by parents and boards of management. Since 1992 the Minister has approved an additional 265 remedial teachers, 190 disadvantaged teaching posts and 90 home-school link persons have been appointed at first and second level. I have served on the vocational education committees and on a number of school boards of management in County Dublin and am conscious of the lack of relevance of the standard leaving certificate to many of our students. I am very pleaed the Minister has decided to introduce the applied leaving certificate programme.

The abolition of third level-fees is a policy the Labour Party has pursued for many years. Thanks to the commitment of the Minister for Education and the support she received from her Cabinet colleagues, this aspiration will soon become a reality for all. This is an important first step in making third-level education accessible to all students and will give heart to many young people who wish to proceed to third-level. The Minister's decision is comparable with that of the late Donogh O'Malley, who introduced free second-level education. Education is a right, not a privilege. Of course, other areas must be addressed and the motion before us mentions some of them.

I support the case made by PLC students for grant aid and I hope the Minister will be able to address these anomalies at an early stage. I think there is a commitment in the Programme for Government to deal with this.

Will the Deputy vote in favour of the motion?

I have received representations from post-graduate students attending the Mater Dei teacher training college. These students have got their places through the CAO system. I understand that discussions are taking place and I hope the matters can be resolved.

Given the importance of education, there will always be a requirement for significant funding. In light of this it is galling to hear cries from some politicians and right wing economists to cut public expenditure further, particularly on education. I could dwell on the needs of first, second and third-level students in my constituency and I hope the Minister will address their needs in some shape or form. There is need for a third-level college on the North side and it is my hope and aspiration that it will be located in the general Swords area, which was in the County Dublin Development Plan.

It is going to Dún Laoghaire.

The Minister has achieved a great deal during her short period in office and I hope she will keep up the good work.

(Laoighis-Offaly): I am delighted to have the opportunity to debate this very important subject but I am disappointed by the partisan and unfocused opening address of the party opposite. In some respects it sounded like a county council meeting where you list all the problems and say that a deputation will be sent to the Minister in the hope that something can be done about it. It is the type of attitude which decides that the glass is half empty rather than half full and will not give credit where credit is due. I am happy to support the Minister in what she has done so far in third-level education.

In 1992 the then Minister for Education, Deputy Séamus Brennan, announced that this would take place under a Fianna Fáil Government. If Fianna Fáil had still been in office it would have been the first on the night it was announced to claim credit for it, as it did during the past year, particularly during the European and local elections. When ever you read a Fianna Fáil election leaflet, everything that Deputy Bhreathnach did which was good was to the credit of Fianna Fáil. I am happy to acknowledge that it was achieved by a partnership Government.

This debate deserves serious attention and not a scatter-gun or blunder-buss approach which achieves nothing.

We are very serious about the needs of the people excluded.

(Laoighis-Offaly): The Deputies opposite must be unaware of the fact that for the past two weeks their own Finance spokesman has been berating the Government because of its high expenditure. I am glad the Minister has done the best with the resources available to her. I am glad to hear Deputy Martin say tonight that the Minister's approach in abolishing third-level fees was too clever by half.

I did not use those words.

(Laoighis-Offaly): I am happy to support the Minister.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Kenneally and Noel Ahern. I congratulate Deputy Martin, spokesperson on education, and the junior spokespersons. Deputies Flood and Coughlan, on putting down this important motion calling on the Minister for Education to bring forward a comprehensive package of measures to ensure equity for all students attending third-level education courses and specifically calling on the Minister to provide equal treatment for students attending the Mater Dei Institute of Education, the Milltown Institute of Theology and Philosophy, the Royal College of Surgeons, the National College of Industrial Relations, the Pontifical University in Maynooth, All Hallows College and other designated colleges.

The motion further calls on the Minister to provide maintenance grants for post-leaving certificate students; to increase the rates of student maintenance grants under the higher education grants scheme; to provide equal treatment for evening students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities; to provide equal treatment for post-graduate students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities; to provide equal treatment for mature students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities; to provide equal treatment for part-time students in respect of fees, grants and access to facilities; and to introduce specific measures to assist women to return to higher education.

Over the past few weeks, I received correspondence from Kerry and Cork students attending the Mater Dei Institute, a teacher training college specialising in the teaching of religious education and arts subjects. Graduates are recognised teachers in secondary, vocational and community schools. Each post-primary school is required to provide religious education as part of the curriculum. This requirement is based on parents' rights under the Constitution, the deed of trust of community schools and the Vocational Education Act, 1930.

I am disappointed that the Minister did not mention students at the Mater Dei Institute of Education. It is the institute's proud record that its graduates secure teaching positions each year. For the record, access to the institute is by way of application processed through the chief executive officer. Eligible students qualify for grants under the existing higher education grants scheme. At present, 153 of the 221 students at the institute receive grants. The four-year course leading to the degree of bachelor of religious science includes an arts subject, religious studies and education. The degree is recognised by the registration council for secondary teachers as the equivalent of a primary degree and a higher diploma in education.

We heard several Government Members say students have a right to free third-level education. Why should that right not be available to students at the Mater Dei Institute of Education? The need to have professionally trained teachers of religious education in all schools is greater today than ever before, given the pressures experienced by young people. It is imperative that the course provided in the institute should be available to those who wish to avail of it on the same financial basis as other degree courses in teacher training and third-level colleges. Over half the student body have benefited from higher education grants since 1987. This is based on the principle that the benefit is to the student, not to the institute. Surely the abolition of fees is mainly a benefit to parents and students and should be available to all students as in other teacher training and third-level colleges. Otherwise it could be said that students wishing to study religion at the Mater Dei Institute and become teachers are penalised.

I call on the Minister to prepare a strategic plan for the future development of third-level education which will ensure that extra places and adequate facilities are provided to accommodate the projected expansion in third-level enrolments. I support the motion.

I am pleased that the Minister stayed for the debate tonight. We had a Private Members' motion on higher education a few weeks ago and the Minister did not remain to listen.

I listened to it.

I hope she will take note of what I have to say. The motion refers to equity for all students attending third-level education courses. As one of my party's spokespersons on equality and law reform, I see the word "equity" on a daily basis. I wish to speak about equity for the south-east region. I am returning to a subject I did not expect to raise so soon. I refer to the ongoing and seemingly endless campaign in Waterford for the upgrading of the third-level facilities available in the south-east. There was a universal welcome for the report of the technical working group of the steering committee on the future development of higher education issued last January, spelling out the need for enhanced facilities in the south-east. For the first time proof of what many people had been saying was provided.

Politicians of all persuasions welcomed the report as did business interests, those involved in education and the general public. One hindrance to furthering the aims of the south-east was lack of cohesion on exactly what was required and where it should be sited. As soon as the technical report was published this more or less stopped. Everyone thought this was the definitive position because of the research on which the decision was based. The report contains the view of the group that there is a case for the enhancement of degree level facilities in the south-east. It considered this should be accommodated by expanding the existing regional technical college in Waterford which would be upgraded to the status of a higher technological institute. While this would not confer university status, it would take Waterford regional technical college out of the mainstream of other regional technical colleges and allow the region to develop.

I am conscious of a SERTEC report on technological developments within the EU which was published a few years ago. According to their league table Ireland came last. Using the same criteria within Ireland, the south east region comes last. If this does not prove the necessity for higher technologically-motivated courses within the region, nothing else will.

What year was that?

When the interim report was published many other regional technical colleges felt they too should enjoy the same advancement as Waterford Regional Technical College. Their arguments were based on the academic levels which had been reached within those institutions and, on that basis, a case was put forward for upgrading. There is little doubt that some of these institutions could sustain such a move but they missed the real point in the report and in the case advanced by Waterford and the south east.

The case was advanced on geographic grounds. Obviously, there had to be an institute within the region capable of taking on such a challenge. Such an establishment existed in Waterford Regional Technical College. The other regional technical colleges trying to jump on the bandwagon were located in regions which already enjoyed university status. I am very annoyed at a report which appeared in The Irish Times last Saturday which I am sure was leaked in order to try to soften the university lobby in Waterford. If that was the purpose of the leak it will not work. I and others intend to be heard on this issue until we get what is rightfully due to us. I know there are vested interests at work in the steering committee on the future development of higher education who do not want the region to be upgraded. They are not interested in what is right or wrong for the south east or what is in the best interests of the students from that area. They are interested only in their own patch and making sure there is no more competition. They have a cosy little club and have decided there should be further access to it.

It seems strange that people with such vested interests are deciding on what is best for the future of higher education. I suggest they are not acting in the best interests of the boys and girls who wish to improve their educational opportunities and who, if the leaked report is correct, will be disadvantaged in the south east compared with their counterparts in other regions.

I call on the Minister for Education to reject what is now being suggested and accept the report of the technical working group. By doing so she will do what is right and I firmly believe she knows that. I note that Thurles and Dún Laoghaire are mentioned for enhanced third-level facilities. These are purely political decisions and there is no objective analysis to support the provision of such educational establishments in these centres. I note the Minister tonight referred again to a commitment to establish a regional college in Dún Laoghaire, which happens to be in her constituency, and one in Tipperary. If she wishes to be political about this, I will remind her of a decision taken at the Labour Party conference held in Waterford a few years ago, when she was in Opposition, which affirmed that it was Labour Party policy to support the provision of a university in Waterford.

The truth hurts.

The Deputy's party was in Government then.

That was confirmed by the Tánaiste and Leader of the Labour Party when he spoke on Waterford local radio prior to the November 1992 general election. I want the Minister to honour the promise given on two occasions by the Labour Party to locate a university in that part of the country.

Why did the Deputy's party not do that when it was in Government?

The present Minister was Minister for Education at that time.

Let us hear the Deputy in possession.

Students in some areas are disadvantaged. Unemployed students pursuing full-time degree courses must travel, for instance, from Waterford to Cork each night and are not entitled to payment of fees or grants. A person from Cork pursuing a similar degree in that university city can attend the course by day and is entitled to have fees paid and to avail of grants. The student from Waterford who cannot afford to stay in Cork and must depend on daily lifts is not entitled to a grant. That is another inequity in the system. I hope the Minister will address the inequities highlighted tonight by my Fianna Fáil colleagues.

I congratulate Deputy Martin for tabling this motion, but I am disappointed with the Minister's response. It was left to Deputy Ryan to mention problems such as those experienced by private colleges like Mater Dei. I am disappointed that the Minister did not have good news in respect of those issues. The admission rate to third-level education in Dublin is significantly lower than in other parts of the country, particularly in respect of diploma courses where admission is exceptionally low, in some cases 35 per cent lower than that which prevails elsewhere. Any examination based on postal districts indicates enormous disparities in terms of access to third-level education. The report indicated that 15 times more people from affluent areas than from disadvantaged areas attend degree courses. Young people from disadvantaged areas often do not complete second-level education, and even when they do, their propensity to apply for third-level education is low and their success rate in securing offers is very low, particularly in some parts of the city. The diploma course acceptance rate by students in disadvantaged areas is quite good. Dublin has the added problem of students from other parts of the country attending colleges there. That puts pressure on the points system and disadvantaged students lose out.

As stated in the interim report of the Higher Education Authority on the future of education, the area most in need of a new college is the northern fringe and the report recommends Finglas as an ideal location. I know Deputy Ryan referred to a development plan and that he has Swords in mind but that is not what the professionals recommend.

The professionals are not always right.

They did not recommend Dún Laoghaire either.

The report states that a college in Finglas would achieve reasonable proximity to the various disadvantaged areas on the north side which the college would serve. In that regard I am bitterly disappointed that the Minister seems to concentrate her resources in locating a new college in the Dún Laoghaire catchment area which is already well served and where I understand the colleges are not full. I am not sure what is an urban college.

We will keep the Deputy informed on that.

I ask the Minister to provide a college in Finglas, as recommended by the professionals, and leave petty constituency considerations aside.

I ask the Minister to provide equal treatment for students attending private colleges. I am particularly familiar with the Mater Dei Institute and All Hallows College close to my constituency and I am aware of a number of other colleges. Why did the Minister, who announced her free fees policy in such a blaze of glory, spoil matters by omitting some categories? Why did she discriminate against students attending the colleges I mentioned? A distinction must be drawn between private commercial colleges and colleges such as All Hallows, Mater Dei and so on. They are not in the business of making money from the courses they run. Their sole intention is to break even financially. The courses run by those colleges benefit society and should be fully supported as other third-level institutions. They may be private colleges, but they are designated by the NCEA. Grants were made available under the existing higher education grant scheme to benefit students, not the colleges or the institutions. Surely the abolition of fees similarly is for students' benefit. Why has the Minister discriminated against those students? Does she not care about the financial strain being placed on them and their parents? Why has the Minister classified those colleges differently? In other EU countries I understand no distinction is drawn between theological or philosophical education courses and other studies. Is this the usual Labour Party agnostic streak——

It is the Irish Constitution formulated by de Valera.

——that emerges when the Minister deals with any Church body, religious subject or institution? Can the Minister not deal with the matter professionally without giving vent to normal Labour Party ideology? Does theological-philosophical education run counter to her party's ideology or is she hell bent on one form of ideology, the gospel according to Dick or Fergus? Can she not broaden her horizon, consider other forms of education and support other courses? Those colleges are providing good courses and I hope the Minister will reconsider her stance on them. The degree courses in those colleges are of the highest quality and students, when qualified, generally have little difficulty in securing employment. Deputy Foley referred to Mater Dei from which it is a bonus to have a qualification. A qualification from Mater Dei is a prized possession and students with such a qualification encounter no difficulties in securing jobs in secondary or vocational colleges.

Debate adjourned.
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