Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 1995

Vol. 457 No. 3

Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - White Paper on Education.

Michael McDowell

Question:

3 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Finance if his Department was involved in the drafting, evaluation or costing of the policy options and proposals set out in the White Paper on Education; the agreement or understanding, if any, between his Department and the Department of Education in relation to the nonpublication of such costings; the reason no costings appear in the White Paper; if his Department will take into account widespread public concern regarding the failure of his Department to publish any financial evaluation of the White Paper's proposals; if he will make a statement on the implications for the Exchequer of the proposals in the White Paper; the procedures or guidelines, if any, there are in relation to policy announcements requiring prior financial evaluation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15282/95]

Michael McDowell

Question:

57 Mr. M. McDowell asked the Minister for Finance if his Department was involved in the drafting, evaluation or costing of the policy options and proposals set out in the White Paper on Education; the agreement or understanding, if any, between his Department and the Department of Education in relation to the nonpublication of such costings; the reason no costings appear in the White Paper; if his Department will take into account widespread public concern regarding the failure of his Department to publish any financial evaluation of the White Paper's proposals; if he will make a statement on the implications for the Exchequer of the proposals in the White Paper; the procedures or guidelines, if any, there are in relation to policy announcements requiring prior financial evaluation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15223/95]

Mr. Quinn

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 57 together.

The White Paper on Education entitled "Charting our Education Future" was published by the Minister for Education following consideration by the Government, which included consideration of its possible cost implications. My Department prepared observations on the White Paper in accordance with the normal procedure for submissions to Government.

As already indicated in reply to previous questions from Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Martin, the cost of implementing the White Paper is contingent on a number of factors including the time scale in which proposals contained in the White Paper are to be introduced, the outcome of discussions/negotiations with concerned interests and notably pay costs which in turn reflect numbers employed in the sector. Because of these factors any costing of the White Paper is extremely tentative.

The Government's position in regard to funding is set out in the foreword to the White Paper as follows:

The Government will aim to provide, during its period of office, the resources for the development needs identified in the White Paper, within the framework of the budgetary parameters set out in the Government of Renewal policy document, including the acceptance of the Maastricht Treaty convergence conditions. The amount which can be made available in any given year will have to be decided by the Government in the context of its financial position and its other expenditure priorities at that time. In this context, the Government will have the opportunity to consider any potential which may exist to reallocate resources within the education sector in the light of demographic changes.

Some of the changes proposed may involve discussions and negotiations with concerned interests. In those circumstances I hope the Deputy will understand that it would be inappropriate to publish costings in advance of such negotiations.

A very important aspect of the White Paper is the creation of a framework for the management of the education system for which the Minister for Education intends to bring forward the necessary legislation. Some of the important changes in this regard will involve the establishment of roles and functions which will not have significant resource implications.

Mr. M. McDowell

I regard it as unacceptable that, in a major expenditure Department for which a White Paper is produced involving nothing short of a revolution in the way in which education in Ireland is to be delivered, no figures of any kind were ever tendered to the public by reference to which they could make judgments as to whether they were going to get good value for money from any of the policy options outlined.

Accepting the Minister's caveat that any costings must be tentative, would the Minister indicate the substance of the advice given to him by his Department on the cost implications of some of the proposals, such as the establishment of local enterprise boards, early retirement for teachers, etc? Can the Minister give the House any indication whether we are dealing with tens of millions, hundreds of millions or close to a billion pounds between now and the year 2000?

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy is confusing two different Government procedures. A Government White Paper sets forward a set of policy proposals to be implemented over an unspecified period of time. A specific Government memorandum proposing to introduce a particular measure must, as Cabinet regulations require, come with costing and staffing implications. Regarding this revolutionary White Paper——

Mr. M. McDowell

The word "revolutionary" is not complimentary in my lexicon.

Mr. Quinn

The Deputy used the phrase. Another one of the Deputy's favourite words is "radical". I am glad that, revolutionary or radical, the Deputy recognises it is a major change. For its implementation in whole or in part over a specified time period it involves substantial negotiations with specific interests. Staff interests currently within the Department of Education represent of the order of 80 per cent of overall costs. It would not, therefore, be constructive or necessarily accurate to give a costing that would reflect the real costs at the point when such proposals are implemented. However, if the Deputy wants approximate costings on specific areas contained in the White Paper, I invite him to table questions in that regard.

Mr. M. McDowell

Accepting that there is no rigid timeframe on the proposals, would the Minister accept that in essence the White Paper envisages a pattern of expenditure which, if implemented between now and the year 2000, would involve an extra £1 billion in spending by the Exchequer? Would he agree that that does not conform with the material set out in the foreword to the White Paper and, in particular, with the restatement of the Government's commitment to the Maastricht Treaty convergence criteria?

Mr. Quinn

The Government's Programme of Renewal sets expenditure parameters between now and the end of its term of office, which is approximately two years from now. It would not be possible, given the extent of the commitments in the White Paper to start to address the kind of question the Deputy has put by way of supplementary question. The White Paper sets out a range of desirable things that should be done and, it is hoped, will be done in the course of time. It is impossible to say at this stage when, in what context or against what cost background, they will be done.

Mr. M. McDowell

Does the Minister agree that to evaluate whether we should make particular policy commitments that will entail expenditure in one area rather than another — money is never freely available — and to afford the public an opportunity to evaluate the White Paper as a genuine proposal in the education field, it is essential that at some stage a member of the Cabinet should tell the people the approximate cost of implementing its provisions? Does the Minister also agree that proposals for the establishment of ten local education boards, with their inherent bureaucracies, may be revolutionary but in the wrong direction? They are wasteful. Does he accept, therefore, that people are entitiled to know the cost implications of such increased bureaucracy in the control of education so that they may decide whether they wish to leave matters as they stand or proceed down the revolutionary path mapped out by the Minister, Deputy Bhreathnach?

Mr. Quinn

I do not know where the Deputy has been for the past few years. My colleague and friend, the Minister Deputy Bhreathnach, has engaged in one of the most open and democratic consultative processes ever undertaken in education.

Mr. M. McDowell

She did not put a cost on anything.

Mr. Quinn

This is unprecedented in terms of engaging not only the sectoral interests involved in education, but parents and the social partners, including farmers, employers and the trade unions. As a result of that unprecedented process, a proposal published in the form of a White Paper was debated in the House. It is now up to the Minister for Education to introduce specific proposals and, similar to other proposals introduced by a Minister in the present Administration, they must be introduced within the expenditure parameters to which the Government is committed.