Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 1995

Vol. 459 No. 8

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1995: Second Stage (Resumed).

Mr. T. Foxe

I appealed earlier to the Minister to treat six day licence holders as benevolently as she treated other licensees. Under the Bill the same arrangements should apply to New Year's Eve as apply to Christmas Eve and 23 December. The festive season is still in full swing and New Year's Eve is a great occasion. I tabled amendments on this issue.

Deputy Woods said it would be undesirable from a psychiatric point of view for people to consume more alcohol. If his figures are as reliable as usual, he should talk to the Minister for Finance because if the price of alcohol is reduced, more will be consumed and the Revenue Commissioners will receive more in taxation. Everyone will be happy.

Mrs. Owen

The Deputy's point was people would end up in psychiatric hospitals.

Mr. T. Foxe

The powers that be do not anticipate that there will be many psychiatric patients in future as there were plans to convert the psychiatric hospital in Castlerea into a prison.

The licensed trade has changed in the past 20 years. Transport was not readily available and people did not go to town as much as they do now. The day drinking trade is almost a thing of the past. When the Minister reviews the licensing laws she should bear in mind the possibility of allowing late extensions in public houses. When on holiday it is nice to retire to a tavern for beverages and it would be lovely to continue to drink legally until 1 a.m. rather than doing so illegally, often with the lights turned off.

Mrs. Owen

Does that happen?

Mr. T. Foxe

I read somewhere that it does but one cannot always believe everything one reads. A licence holder could be given 20 late extensions in a year and could inform the local superintendent of the occasions on which the person wished to use them. If the superintendent is satisfied that the occasion is a legitimate one the late opening should be granted. Perhaps the Minister has other views on helping the hard-hit publican.

This Bill has created quite a stir but the equal status legislation created almost as much comment. It is imperative that publicans be allowed to refuse service if they so wish. A publican is in business to make money and the more drink he sells the more money he makes. However, if he cannot control the people on his premises life will become hell for him. He will have to continually break the law. Every year when a publican applies for the renewal of his licence a Garda superintendent must vouch for the running of the pub during the year. If it was troublesome the licence may not be renewed. If a publican does not have the right to refuse service to a group of hooligans how can he run a proper pub? An example might be a group of football supporters——

Mr. McGahon

Or off duty gardaí.

Mr. T. Foxe

——or, indeed, retired TDs. The publican has no method to keep an orderly house other than having the right to refuse to serve people. Some people are of the opinion that only one section of the community comes into the category of those who are refused. Students may be refused in certain pubs and if the Bill is passed they could take a publican to court for damages. Lawyers may be delighted with the new legislation as it will create work for them.

At present publicans may refuse service to drug pushers who come into their pubs. However, if the publican is obliged to give a reason and says he believes the person to be a drug pusher he may be asked to prove the allegations and may find himself in court for defamation. It is imperative that the publican retains the right to manage his own premises as he sees fit.

I am pleased with this Bill and I hope the Minister will consider my suggestions about New Year's Eve.

Mr. McGahon

I wish to share my time with Deputy Creed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. McGahon

Deputy Tom Foxe is a good lobbyist for his chosen profession.

Mr. N. Treacy

It is only one of his three professions.

Mr. McGahon

However, I do not view that profession in the same favourable light. Deputy O'Donnell referred to the large contribution made to the economy by the drinks industry. It also contributes greatly to the misery and distress suffered by hundreds of thousands of families. The overindulgence in drink to which young people in particular are prone is tragic. The tolerance of drink is indicative of a deep social problem. Every family has suffered from the excesses of drink, my own family included. Some restraint is needed if the young people are not to be engulfed in a wave of alcoholic poisoning.

I contrast this tolerance with the vitriolic treatment of the cigarette industry by all Governments. I share the belief that cigarette smoking is injurious to health. Smoking kills but so does alcohol. More families are affected by the excesses of alcohol than by cigarette smoking and more people are killed throughout the world by alcohol and alcohol related illnesses than by smoking or any other hard or soft drug.

There is a natural progression from drink to drugs for young immature people, as Deputy O'Donoghue suggested this morning. Adolescents want to be on a high and after a while drink is not enough so they gravitate to drugs. There is a definite link between the two. The drugs problem is the terror of parents but they can only expect it as it is a natural progression from experimentation with drink. Official figures suggest that the age at which children start to drink is 12 years. That is an horrific indictment of successive Governments and of us all for having allowed that to happen.

The glamorous seductive advertisements for drink on television show attractive happy people in pubs. They do not show the tragic figure in the corner with head in hands or the husband or wife and children at home waiting for the absent spouse. Young children are bombarded with seductive and sophisticated advertising for an endless list of drinks, while, hypocritically, cigarettes are not allowed to be advertised. The drink industry is used for cynical purposes due to the fact that it contributes millions to the Exchequer in revenues. There is a tolerance of drink in society.

The Minister commented on the tragic figures of 315 people killed on the roads in the summer. Had a natural catastrophe taken 315 lives the newspapers would produce hourly editions to cover the story. However, because the deaths are fragmented and the bereaved are left to grieve alone nothing is done. Official statistics indicate that one in three of those people was killed by a drunken driver.

We have seen the power of the publicans lobby which faced down measures brought in by the former Ministers for the Environment, Deputies Michael Smith and Howlin. Was consideration given to the people — mostly pedestrians — who are at risk? It was not, because of cynical political reasons of revenue and representations from the publicans' lobby. Not only that, many TDs hold their clinics in public houses. These matters need airing in this House. The drug problem is a national tragedy. Drugs are being sold in pubs — as Deputy Foxe accepted — clubs and discos. Unless draconian measures are introduced to combat the drug scourge, the next 20 years will turn this country into a hell hole for our youth.

I fully support the Minister's common-sense steps to allow licensed and off-sales premises to open over the Christmas period because it is a practical measure.

Mrs. Owen

It is, especially for supermarkets.

Mr. McGahon

I accept that but we should take a serious look at the drinks industry and its social consequences because we are much too tolerant. Our fastest rising statistic is for the admittance of women to psychiatric clinics as a result of the abuse of drink. That is not good for society.

I agree with Deputy Foxe. The proposal to deny publicans the right to refuse admission is ludicrous and farcical. Does it come from outer space, or from the same dodo who denied a father the right to give a difficult child a tiny cuff? The man in the street cannot accept these two legislative provisions. Is it any wonder there is no discipline in the country? We have removed a parent's right to gently chastise his or her child, which is madness. We can see the indiscipline in schools which leads to many teachers suffering from stress and wanting to retire. We are now bringing in the unbelievable law that a man cannot prevent a person he considers undesirable entering his premises. Will we extend the same rights to people calling to Leinster House? Do we not reserve the right of admission into this House and rightly so, because every head-banger in the country would come here?

Mr. Creed

There are quite a few headbangers in here.

Mrs. Owen

I thought they were all in here.

Mr. McGahon

They are not all here but there are a few. Nonetheless, I expect every Deputy in the House to oppose that measure. My younger colleague, Deputy Creed will disagree, possibly vehemently, with some of what I say. I reiterate that while I do not preach prohibition, the Irish drink industry is a serious social problem and causes great difficulty for hundreds of thousands of families. I will be called a killjoy but I am prepared to bear that because I have seen the suffering many people have had to endure from the "devil's buttermilk".

Mrs. Owen

That sounds like one of Deputy O'Donoghues phrases.

Mr. O'Donoghue

I must take it down.

Mr. Creed

Deputy McGahon might be surprised to hear that I largely agree with many of his opening remarks about the drink industry, especially about the discrimination vis-à-vis the tobacco industry. By and large, however, the Bill is not an observation or commentary on the pros and cons of the alcohol industry, rather it concerns regulating access. In that sense, while I agree with the Minister's proposals and welcome the Bill, there is a need to have a more extensive review of the licensing regulations.

The purpose of the Bill as outlined in the explanatory memorandum is to allow shops and supermarkets which are licensed to sell intoxicating liquor by retail and other licensed premises to remain open on Christmas Eve or 23 December in any year that either day falls on a Sunday, as if it was a weekday.

What is so special about weekday regulations at present? To give an instance of the absurdity of many of the current licensing regulations, one local newspaper recently reported an application in a provincial town for permission to open between 7.30 a.m. and 10 a.m. to facilitate a fish licensed market, in Skibbereen, I believe.

Section 3 of the Bill deals with mixed trading in off-licences on larger retail premises; my colleague Deputy Ring referred to this as the "Dunnes Stores" Bill. Section 4 highlights the absurd regulation which means some hotels and restaurants currently cannot serve alcohol between 3 p.m. and 4 p.m. on Sundays. Section 6 highlights the further restrictions whereby other restaurants cannot serve alcohol between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on Sundays. In this time such a restriction is excessive. It is a throw back to days when it was believed there should be profound control over people's daily lives and it is time to review some of those measures. Apart from that, an excessive amount of Garda time is taken up enforcing these regulations and inspecting licensed premises to see if they comply with closing time. At a time when crime is escalating and there are attacks on elderly people, Garda time could be far better spent than in enforcing outdated legislation.

Closing time regulations are mostly not observed to the letter of the law and any law which is not observed brings the whole law into disrepute. In that sense the behaviour of people and publicans indicates the clear need for a review of licensing legislation. It was Lady Margaret Thatcher or one of her cohorts who said one cannot buck the market, which also applies to the drink industry. Regardless of licensing regulations which will determine when one can legally drink in a public house or buy it in an off-licence, those who want to drink, socially or excessively, will do so and the volume they consume will not be related to licensing regulations. Prohibition in the United States in the early part of this century — to which Deputy McGahon referred — did not work either and in that sense there is a need to review licensing regulations.

The closing time culture is the most socially destructive facet of the present licensing regulations. In rural areas especially, people rush to their local at 11.15 p.m., gulp down three or four drinks and leave by 12 o'clock. That is socially undesirable. If the concept of closing time per se was legally done away with, there would be far more regulated and moderate drinking over a protracted period rather than excessive consumption in the last hour before legal closing time. Significant revenue is lost to the State from tourists from continental Europe rather than the UK which has somewhat similar licensing regulations to ours. Tourists aware of our alleged pub culture, which has been exported to the Continent in the form of Irish pubs in almost every major city in Europe, are shocked to find just when they are getting into the swing of things, the shutters come down and they have nowhere to go except their bed and breakfast accommodation. That highlights the necessity to overhaul licensing regulations, not least because of the revenues which are lost.

I favour a system which would allow the proprietors of licensed public houses to decide when they open and close. That would not be socially destructive or lead to increased consumption. The volume of consumption is not determined by opening hours but by people's disposable income and the decisions they make in that regard.

A matter related to the drinks industry, which is under consideration at the moment by the Government, is the proposed equal status Bill. I know the Minister might say this is a side issue but it is important to use the occasion to put down markers.

Mr. O'Donoghue

That is hardly the issue.

Mr. Creed

It was a previous Government issue for which Deputy O'Donoghue's party signed up. It was in the Programme for Government so the Deputy cannot do a "Pontius Pilate" just because he is now on the other side of the House.

Mr. O'Donoghue

That provision was not in it.

Mr. Creed

It was; the Deputy should read the last Programme for Government. I hope the Minister will inform her Cabinet colleagues that there is extraordinary unease among proprietors of public houses that they may not be in a position, if that legislation is passed, to guarantee an orderly house, which would be regrettable. This issue has the potential to destablise the political system that the rod licence issue had. While Deputies are not anxious to discriminate per se against any section of society, it is essential that the proprietor of every public house has the authority vested in him as to how best to maintain law and order and a proper house while his premises is open.

The Minister and the Government would do well to pay heed to the concerns being expressed. I hope to meet the Minister for Equality and Law Reform early in 1996 at the Joint Committee on Small Business and Services to discuss this matter and the concerns being expressed daily by various interest groups.

The Bill is welcome in that it addresses a certain anomaly. However, it is high time we reviewed the licensing regulations which seek to excessively control people's social behaviour. A decision to put the authority to decide when to open and close in the hands of proprietors of public houses is long overdue. That is not to say we should blindly follow what happens in continental Europe and elsewhere. However, it would lead to more orderly drinking. The culture of having a closing time is socially destructive as people gulp down three or four drinks and rush home. If closing time was at the discretion of the proprietor it would not lead to increased consumption but to more socially acceptable drinking patterns, which is entirely desirable.

The Bill, in so far as it goes, is welcome. I imagine it will not have any difficulty gaining passage through the House. I compliment the Minister.

Minister for Justice (Mrs. Owen)

I expected a very wide ranging discussion on this very minimal measure, and I am glad I was not disappointed. Although it was a relatively short debate, it usefully touched on a number of issues related to our intoxicating liquor licensing laws and the wider issues of the role alcohol plays and should not play in many people's lives, where it causes great hardship and damage, the role it plays in young people's lives, the role of parents, opening hours and the tourism industry. A wide range of points of view were put.

Many Deputies referred to the role of public houses in the distribution of drugs to young people. The responsibility rests with publicans, disco owners etc. to ensure that their premises are not being used by evil people to sell drugs to, what Deputy McGahon referred to as, immature people who decide to try something new for a change and who may end up very seriously ill or even, God forbid, dead. With the latitude of the Chair, we touched on almost every aspect of Irish social life with regard to the intoxicating liquor Acts.

My motivation for this legislation has nothing to do with the pubs. It has to do with the case made to me very practically and pragmatically that Christmas Eve falling on a Sunday would cause a great deal of difficulty for people who wished to do their fresh food shopping on Christmas Eve and the day before, due to the law in relation to licensed sections in shops. This does not just refer to big supermarkets. Deputy Ring said he hoped this measure was not for some big supermarket chain. Any small shop with a licenced section could only have legally opened at very restricted times on Christmas Eve without this legislation. This legislation will allow people to go to Mass, do their shopping and have a family day. My motivation was to assist people on a practical level to prepare for Christmas.

Allied to that, I also felt it appropriate not to create an anomaly. We already have enough anomalies in our legislation. I felt it was correct to ensure that public houses and restaurants would have the benefit of this change in the law.

The equal status Bill is within the remit of the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. It is not law, it is not even published legislation. I welcome what was said here today and I am sure the Minister will consider it. I share some of the concerns expressed about the latitude publicans must have to ensure they do not allow their premises to become a den where people can sell drugs without finding themselves at the receiving end of defamation claims and threats, as some Deputies indicated. Some discussion is still to take place on that section of the Bill. I understand the Minister is soon to appear before a Committee to discuss that. The equal status legislation will remove discrimination from our laws and practices and I hope Members support it. In introducing that legislation, we must ensure we do not create difficulties in other areas and I note the concerns of Members in this regard. I have no difficulty in carrying out a wide-ranging review of our licensing laws, but the Bill deals with the minimum necessary because every step taken in this area affects other areas. Deputy Creed referred to the fishing licence controversy. When the word "licence" is mentioned one is guaranteed a heated debate and all sorts of issues arise.

A major review of our licensing laws was carried out in 1988 when Gerry Collins was Minister for Justice. The review began in 1986 but the legislation fell with the demise of the Government in 1987 and the 1988 legislation was introduced in an effort to regulate our licensing laws.

Some Members suggested that different opening hours should apply in tourist areas. What constitutes a tourist area? Where would we draw the line? If different opening hours apply in tourist areas, people would go to the pubs in those areas to benefit from the late opening hours. The number of jobs provided by the drinks industry and ancillary services must be taken into account. In any event, we cannot do that as a result of this debate. It will be the year 2000 before Christmas Eve again falls on a Sunday and if I were to take all the views put forward before then into consideration I would need to begin immediately.

While I am not ignoring the interest in our licensing laws, my priority is to ascertain how drugs are brought into discos and licensed premises. The power of the Garda to enter such premises will also be reviewed. The terms of reference of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security allow it hold a wide-ranging debate on this matter. Members may think we had a heated debate on the Courts and Court Officers Bill with regard to solicitors and barristers, but nothing is more destined to raise tensions than a discussion on the wider implications of altering our licensing laws, deregulation, and so on.

The 1988 Act provides that those under 18 years should produce identity cards when entering a licensed premises and voluntary schemes are well supported by the gardaí in that regard. As Deputy Foxe correctly stated, even if it were mandatory for those under 18 to produce identity cards when entering such premises, that would not guarantee they would not get alcoholic drink some other way. The 1988 legislation places major emphasis on curbing under-age drinking but for it to be effective off-licence and shop owners would have to ask those purchasing drink if it is for people under 18 years. We know that does not happen. However, pub owners are becoming more responsible in this regard. In a number of the pubs in the town in which I live staff members ask young people their ages and do not allow them to consume alcohol if they are under 18. My children, who are in their late teens and early 20s, have brought this to my attention.

Some Members suggested I should include Saint Patrick's Day, New Year's Eve and the following day in the legislation. We cannot compare Saint Patrick's Day to Christmas Eve. I introduced this legislation because Christmas Eve is a special day in the preparations for Christmas. It is a day for shopping, going out to lunch, being with one's family and having a social drink. We recently changed the law to provide for longer opening hours on Saint Patrick's Day but we cannot consider that and other days under this legislation without examining its effects in other areas. In recent years we witnessed some disquieting incidents, associated with alcohol, on Saint Patrick's Day. Members may believe the issues about which they are concerned could be easily resolved under this legislation, but that is not the case. Even the simple request to allow people to shop on Christmas Eve led me to go further than I believed necessary.

This matter will involve a lengthy and heated debate. Many people believe our licensing laws are far too liberal and would like public houses to be open for shorter periods whereas others believe they should be open day and night. This would have implications for trade union staff members and so on. What I am proposing is not obligatory on the owners of public houses, restaurants or shops. They can adhere to the opening hours that apply at present if they wish. However, this pragmatic measure will assist those who wish to open their premises for a longer period on Christmas Eve.

Deputy O'Donoghue suggested that pubs should close at 10 p.m. rather than 11 p.m. on Christmas Eve. That would have implications for the trade and is not appropriate for discussion under this legislation. I hope people would have sufficient understanding to go home to their families when pubs close at 11 p.m. to prepare for Christmas Day. Unfortunately, laws will not ensure that people do not drink to excess. That is a personal habit and Ministers should not pretend that by introducing a law they can dictate people's drinking habits.

Deputy Upton referred to the relatively small number of public houses in Dublin. That was an unintentional side effect of the 1902 provisions. This is a major issue, especially for existing licence holders. Ideally, it should be considered as part of a wider review.

Under-age drinking is a social problem. I refer Members to the eight or nine provisions in the 1988 Act to deal with it.

Deputy Woods, and others, referred to the consequences of alcohol abuse. Between 4,000 and 5,000 people are admitted to mental institutions each year. I am not in a position to indicate, as I have not had time to research the matter, how many cases are drink related, but I am aware that in a large proportion of the cases involving people who have had a nervous or mental breakdown, alcohol is a contributory factor. Tragically, it is a factor in cases involving domestic violence. This will have to be taken into account in any consideration of the question of extended opening hours.

The case made in favour of extended opening hours on Christmas Eve and the day before cannot be made in the case of New Year's Eve and St. Patrick's Day. I have not had the opportunity to consult any of the associations concerned although I received a letter from the vintners' association in connection with this matter. There was only enough time to consider extended opening hours on Christmas Eve and the day before. I am not in a position, therefore, to accept any of the amendments. All the issues which have been raised will be considered and if there is a serious anomaly, I will attempt to rectify it.

There was reference to the position of six day licence holders who are not allowed to open on a Sunday. As Deputy Foxe and others are aware, six day licence holders have the option of applying for a seven day licence. It is a complex procedure which requires examination. In 1960, about 700 availed of the opportunity to pay the Revenue Commissioners £200 for a full licence, leaving 200 approximately with six day licences.

I thank those who contributed to the debate which has been most enlightening. I did my best to reply to the points raised. I thank Deputies for recognising that this is a minimalist and pragmatic measure which will add to the enjoyment of the public at Christmas time. Some people will have to work, but I have no doubt, in keeping with the festive spirit, that they will serve customers in pubs and restaurants out for a festive drink or to shop for their turkey and ham with a smile.

I wish Members a happy Christmas.

Question put and agreed to.