This is the most serious legislation to come before the House. Every effort must be made to put drug barons in prison and I will not lose any sleep if they are and the keys are thrown away. Those who peddle drugs are a scourge in society and a threat to young people whom we have a duty to protect. I am delighted Deputy Owen is the Minister for Justice as I have every confidence in her ability to deal with the issue. If the necessary powers are given to her they will be used widely and she will have the heartfelt thanks of parents, youth leaders and those involved with young people. Drug barons who have no conscience or scruples prey on those who may be in financial difficulties or are not strong willed. I am delighted the Minister will deal effectively with such people and we will rid our country of this scourge.
Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).
Belated and incomplete as it is, I welcome the Minister's effort as a first step by the Government in what I hope will be a crusade against drug trafficking. I would have preferred if the Minister had brought the measure forward on her own initiative rather than in response to a measure introduced by Fianna Fáil. However, it is better late than never and if the Minister accepts our amendments the legislation may be in a fit state to put on the Statute Book.
This measure was promised in a fanfare of trumpets last July. The Minister does not need me to point out that there was a seven month delay between her words and her actions.
Fianna Fáil was in office for eight years and did not do anything about it.
How many young lives have been ruined in the meantime? How many drug related funerals have taken place?
How many major drug hauls were there?
How many fortunes have been made through the sale of illegal drugs since this measure was first announced by the Minister in the heat of the summer sun? The sun has long set on that summer, the swallows have been and gone and are due back again.
Deputy O'Donoghue must use the same speech writer.
Lord Chesterfield said that advice is seldom welcome and those who need it most like it least.
Where was the Deputy for the past ten years?
He might have had the Minister in mind when he said that over a century ago. The drugs menace is the greatest threat to society today. The Minister stated in July they were "a threat to the very fabric of our society" but they were only words to be uttered while action was deferred.
When I last spoke on this topic in the House I said:
I have felt for some time now that the greatest single threat to our society today is that posed by the drugs menace. So serious is the problem and its disastrous potential for the society in which we live that sometimes I feel we are watching the very disintergration of western civilisation as we know it.
That phrase caught the eye of the press and I wish it had been said solely for that purpose. However, so extensive are the tentacles of this monster, so great are the potential fortunes to be garnered and so evil the deeds carried out in the cause of the drugs trade that I have no hesitation in pointing to the drugs problem as the greatest social evil in our midst. Look at the age group targeted: teenagers in their most vulnerable years and now primary school playgrounds are the haunt of those dealers in death. Look at the extent of the crime committed to obtain money for drugs. Thousands of addicts need hundreds of pounds per day and that multiplies to frightening amounts. Consider the implications of that in insurance premiums and payments and the threat to vulnerable members of society who triple lock their doors and see the dawn each morning before they consider it safe to sleep. That is what is happening in modern Ireland. The rights of decent people must be given priority. The figures speak for themselves. Drugs seizures are up in number and in quantity. I congratulate the Garda and the Customs services on their considerable successes. They are not content to rest on their laurels and each day they renew the fight and their commitment to the elimination of this scourge.
Drug-related crime now accounts for 80 per cent of all indictable offences. How many more statistics does the Minister need before she acts quickly, decisively and effectively to eliminate this threat from our midst? A delay of seven months can hardly be called a speedy response. How many more reports and submissions does the Minister need before she is given the latitude, the resources and the money by those members of the Cabinet who for unaccountable reasons have starved her Department of the money required to address this scandal in our midst?
Does the Deputy realise this did not just happen in the past year, that it happened a considerable number of years ago?
The Bill before the House should only be seen as the first attempt or an initial response to the network of criminality behind the drugs scene. By its nature, it only addresses the trafficking of drugs, the wider issues of drug treatment, the provision of sufficient drug treatment centres, the drug problem in prisons and keeping safe prisoners in the Minister's care.
Can the Minister stand up with hand on heart and say she is satisfied with the response to drug abuse in our prisons, that there are sufficient programmes to wean prisoners off drugs while in prison and that there are sufficient back-up services for prisoners when they return to the outside world? Can the Minister confirm that adequate resources are being allocated to the problem? If she can, then she is easily satisfied. If not, why has it taken her seven months to present this Bill and still propose no measure to deal with the wider issue of social breakdown as a result of drugs?
When my party introduced the Misuse of Drugs Bill, 1996——
It is funny that Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn did not do so.
——the response I received in my constituency confirmed what I already suspected and what was being said to me in my clinics. The people want action now. They want not only a response in the area of drug trafficking but a realistic programme of social action which will attack the drugs menace and misery on all fronts. The danger is that if the problem of illegal drugs is allowed to go unchecked or if no realistic measures are taken to combat it, it will become a little like the problem of unemployment, that is, there will be plenty of experts to talk about it but nobody to do anything constructive.
I am on record as saying that I want to empower the Garda to speedily investigate suspected trafficking in and the misuse of controlled substances, to effect speedy entry to premises that are suspected of being used for the illicit drugs trade and to give it additional powers to detain and question suspects as regards drug-related crime. Does the Minister's Bill measure up to those criteria?
Section 2 (2) sets out the periods of detention, the measures which must be taken and the certification given to keep an arrested person in custody for up to seven days. This is necessary to allow for proper investigation of drug-related crime, particularly for the search of financial records which may produce incriminating evidence. Certification needs to be provided by a chief superintendent and in the latter stages the detention must be approved by a judge. Such proposals for offences of this gravity are realistic and are in line with my party's thinking. I am glad that adequate safeguards have been built into this section, such as empowering a judge to have an arrested person brought back before the court at any time during the period of detention which he has certified to avoid an abuse of the power.
When considering the question of drug trafficking in any detail we must distinguish between the types of people who deal in drugs. There are small time operators who first become abusers and are then forced, either by circumstances or by unscrupulous dealers or godfathers, to become dealers. We must see these people for what they are — victims of the all-embracing evil of the drugs empire. I am not suggesting that they should get off scot-free but a court should take into account the manner of their arrival in their predicament and the nature of the benefit they get from their crime.
It is scandalous that we have not yet provided sufficient places in drug treatment centres for these victims of drugs. It is particularly heartbreaking to see on television or at our weekly clinics mothers crying out for a chance for their child to return to some sort of normal life. However, they are denied access to proper treatment because not enough places are available. A place in a medical institution is the least we can offer these people when we may have failed them in another social sphere such as education or welfare or denied them the opportunity to live in decent housing. This is not meant as a justification for their actions—that would be unfair to the majority who have risen above such handicaps to be model citizens—it is merely an explanation as to why they may have turned to drugs for solace or a temporary escape from what they perceive as a different type of prison.
The advent of ecstasy has given the drugs problem a new urgency. It has brought drug abuse to sections of society which otherwise would not have come in contact with it. Ecstasy and its image have made drug abuse acceptable to young people who would never get involved with the hard drugs about which they have been warned throughout their young lives. Along comes this tablet, unspectacular in form, which gives them the type of buzz at an affordable price that they would never get from alcohol. Added to that, some in a position to influence these young people have at best an ambivalent attitude to drugs such as ecstasy or cannabis. These people are a menace to society and they do young people no favours by hinting that those drugs should be freely available or saying out loud that they should be legalised. Worse still, some are in positions where they are seen as role models for our young. A visit by members of the drugs squad to straighten them out on the facts would not be amiss.
Those who aid and abet the commission of drug crimes and who give implicit approval to the use of drugs in dance halls or clubs by shutting off the water supply to make a fast buck from the sale of drinks, including water, can only be described as the scum of the earth masquerading as business people and leisure centre proprietors. They should feel the full rigours of the law if a case can be made against them. There can be no reservations about this. Unless the word goes out from this House and from other institutions which can make a contribution to this matter that those who criminally profit from and actively organise the drugs trade will go to prison for a long time, then we are wasting our time.
Those closest to the problem who can see the misery and suffering at first hand, like members of the drug squad and the medical profession who must treat victims, are not in the least ambivalent on the subject — no drugs, no double-think and no mercy. Not without reason is ecstasy known as Russian roulette in the medical profession. At some point the user's luck will run out and the consequences will be fatal.
The Minister for Health in consultation with the Minister for Justice must devise an effective programme of education and deterrents which will bring home to young people in particular the terrifying consequences and the futility of dabbling in ecstasy and other drugs. The Department of Health is losing the battle against smoking. It is apparent from any casual observation that while older people are giving up the smoking habit, young people are taking it up in droves despite a reasonably effective no smoking campaign in past decades. It is the same in the case of litter. Nearly 40 years after the advent of the tidy towns competition and a comprehensive advertising and educational campaign, we still have very dirty streets. The fight against drug use must be more successful than those campaigns if we are to achieve any degree of success. However, results will not be achieved by penny-pinching and procrastination.
The adult population is largely ignorant of the existence of and the threat posed by ecstasy but young people seem to know all about it, except the consequences of its abuse. We need programmes today — each day we defer action is another week that we defer the chance of ultimate success. Any programme of drug information must be realistic, appealing, effective and ongoing to be of use. It must also carry the unreserved support of the Minister, not only in words but in action and funding.
Section 4 deals in considerable depth with matters relating to re-arrest and the powers of the Garda subject to scrutiny by the courts. Section 6 allows for the involvement of the Customs and Excise service in questioning suspects. That is a necessary provision to enable the best expertise and widest possible range of information to be available when suspects are questioned.
However, I wonder if the Minister has a full grasp of the drugs importation problem and a reasonable understanding of the location of most major drug trafficking. The sea route is used for the importation of huge quantities of illegal drugs, as indicated by the large number of drugs finds on the south coast. Bales of cannabis are regularly trawled by fishing boats or washed ashore on beaches, with the consequent danger that they may fall into the wrong hands.
Ports are frequently used as a location to offload drugs. There are two major ports as well as many smaller fishing ports on the south-east coast. The road from Rosslare to Cork runs through the biggest population centre in the south-east, Waterford, where one of those major ports is located. The highest ranking Garda officer for the region is based in Waterford, yet when the Minister recently appointed an assistant commissioner to better co-ordinate the fight against crime in the region, she nominated the inland town of Kilkenny as the headquarters.
I did not; the Garda did.
The Minister hides behind the Garda Commissioner when it suits her.
It is important for a spokesman to know the facts.
That is a very strange if not short-sighted decision.
The Deputy should consult Deputy Woods who always knows the facts.
One wonders what political considerations steered her in that direction rather than favouring the logical choice of Waterford city.
On the introduction of our Bill in January I said that the drugs problem must be tackled at three levels: by reducing the supply of drugs reaching the Irish market, by reducing the demand for legal drugs and by dealing with the health problems associated with drug dependency. The Minister, in addressing only one of those elements, is adopting a less than effective approach to the problem. Unless we deal quickly and meaningfully with reducing the demand for drugs and take out of the system as many people as possible who have become trapped in it, we are wasting valuable time.
Many young people who have criminal records are in that position only because of drug dependency. Without drugs they would never have found themselves on the wrong side of the law. These are primarily the people in whom I have the greatest interest and for whom I have the greatest sympathy. The drug barons who make millions of pounds from that lucrative industry must be hunted down, brought to court and dealt with severely.
Would the Deputy shoot them?
I might.
Deputy McGahon would probably shoot them.
We would be at one on issues such as this. A constituent of mine recently told me that people living in London select primary schools for their children on the basis of the extent of the drugs problem in the playground. If we do not take positive action now we too will go down that road. Unfortunately we have failed to learn from the experience of other countries in equally serious matters. I am fearful that the Minister and her colleagues are complacent in this regard.
The Minister is receiving the full co-operation of my party for this measure, but our support carries a price tag. She and her Cabinet colleagues who have jurisdiction in this matter should come back to the House within a short period with new measures to enable people to get out of the drugs trap and to protect our young people. We do not want pious platitudes or lofty aspirations.
As we had for seven years when the Deputy's party was in Government.
We want action that will bring this country up to date with the most advanced in the world who value their young population. The most overused political cliché of the moment is that the youth are our greatest asset, and that is the case, but I want action on their behalf. The members of the Government should collectively pit themselves against this national scourge and combine their resources to wage war on drug abuse.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): I wish to share my time with Deputy McGahon.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Bille seo agus chomhghairdeachas a ghabháil leis an Aire gur thug sé an Bille seo ós ár gcomhair. Cuireann sé ionadh orm bheith ag éisteacht leis an Teachta Kenneally ag gearáin nár thóg sé an Bille seo isteach roimhe seo. Bhí seans ag Airí eile le seacht mbliain anuas agus ní rinneadh siad tada. Is dócha go raibh náire ar an Teachta nuair a bhí sé ag féachaint ar na h-Airí sin gan aon rud ag teacht uatha.
When the Deputy has something nasty to say, he says it in Irish.
He will say it in English now, and if the Deputy is not careful he will also say it in French.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): I would be very surprised if those who have fooled the people for years about restoration of the Irish language objected to my use of Irish in this House.
We are certainly not objecting.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Even to object to a Minister's apology in Irish shows the hypocrisy of masquerading as preserver of the Irish language.
The Deputy will be nasty in English now.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): Deputy Woods is certainly encouraging me to be.
He clearly does not understand Irish.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): My previous point about the Rip van Winkles of modern politics has been proved again today. I listened to Deputy Kenneally talk about the drugs scene, and I agree with him to a certain extent, but to blame the Minister, Deputy Owen, for not bringing in this Bill sooner is outrageous considering that his colleagues were in Government for seven years and failed to do so.
Deputies over there are very sensitive to criticism.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): We are not sensitive to criticism. Fianna Fáil was in power for seven years and as soon as that party crossed the floor it saw all the problems that must be solved. The Deputy must realise that there are difficulties in solving these problems, otherwise he is casting a vote of no confidence in his former colleagues. Some of the statements made by Deputies opposite are unbelievable.
I share the concern about the drugs problem, which unfortunately has increased year after year and is devastating the country. I congratulate the Minister on bringing in this Bill. I am not concerned about the seven days' detention provision. People may put forward the argument about civil liberties and rights, but with the increase in the number of judges, I am sure everybody will get a fair crack of the whip. It is important that people are protected and that those involved in drugs will not go free under the pretence of civil liberties or rights. They should be made to answer questions and account for their movements. In this case the right to silence is a very dubious privilege considering the damage being done, particularly to young people. The suffering inflicted on those who become involved in drugs is outrageous.
I was shocked to read in my local newspaper recently that a seven year old was offered drugs in the street. The attitude is that if people become involved in drug dealing or become addicted at a young age there will be a market for drugs. I have every sympathy for drug addicts who cannot give up drugs, but the drug barons who make money and sit back like lords should be detained for seven days or longer if necessary. I have no sympathy for them because they are destroying the lives of decent people.
If the drugs problem was solved much crime would be eliminated because drug addicts steal, rob, snatch handbags and molest people to get money for drugs. If the major drug barons were apprehended it would help to solve the crime problem. At one stage it was thought that the drugs problem was concentrated only in Dublin inner city, but we must accept that has now changed. A drugs scene has been inflicted on most towns and villages. It is amazing that so many young people are becoming involved in the drugs scene at a time when education about the dangers of drugs was never more widespread. It is shattering that ecstasy still appeals to young people considering that many have died from taking those tablets and when education has informed young people of what they are dealing with.
I had the privilege of visiting a prison near Washington a few years ago which provided methadone treatment to wean drug abusing prisoners off drugs. A glass partition which separated prisoners from their visitors prevented the passing of drugs to the prisoners. The officials there told us they had a 95 per cent success rate in weaning drug abusing prisoners off drugs. I do not know if that figure was accurate, but the officials there assured us that the prisoners did not have access to drugs. One of the problems in Mountjoy Prison is that the prisoners there can gain access to drugs. It is difficult to eliminate drugs from prisons, but we must make every effort to wean drug abusing prisoners off drugs and ensure that prisoners do not begin to take drugs when they are sent to prison.
I welcome the Bill and the concept of giving more powers to the gardaí and Customs officers. In particular, I welcome the co-operation between them to address the drugs problem. It would be awful if different groups enforcing the same law and trying to achieve the same objective were at loggerheads. It is important that powers of re-arrest should be implemented where there is evidence of a crime. Sections 2 to 6, inclusive, will be reviewed after 12 months in case the provisions may be unfair. That signifies that the Minister is not imposing draconian laws. I hope those sections will stand up to scrutiny. I wish the Bill well as it is time that we dealt with the drug barons.
Having been a Member for 14 years and a self-confessed cynic of this palace of variety that passes for pantomime, I should not be shocked by it as it is the political world and I suppose my party indulges in it too when necessary. It is hard to listen to a decent quiet man like Deputy Kenneally trot out the type of political claptrap he uttered today. We all agree with some of the points he made, but to attempt to nail the Minister after only 17 months in office and saddle her with responsibility for the level of crime here demeans the House.
I referred to the lack of action.
It is particularly hard for me as a cynic of Fine Gael activity as well as Fianna Fáil activity to listen to what Deputy Kenneally said when his party was in Government for seven years and ten months. Is he attempting to say that crime reached its present scale since the Minister came to office? The crime problem is like a cancer which has grown over many years.
The Deputy's party only had an interest in the Bill because we produced one.
Fianna Fáil produced its Bill because I announced mine.
Deputy Kenneally's party introduced it because of political opportunism.
That is correct.
At any time in the previous eight years did Deputy Kenneally raise this issue in this auditorium? Was he aware that Martin Cahill was the biggest mobster in Europe and that he was freely walking around the streets of Dublin engaged in crime until he was assassinated? The Fianna Fáil Government was unable to do anything about that. It was aware of his activities but it did nothing. That is the reality of the crime problem. The Minister entered office in the eye of a storm.
That is not true. I was directly involved in this area when I was Minister for Social Welfare.
It is a fact. In the 17 months since she took office she has been given a baptism of fire and is as tough a cookie as we have had in the history of this State next to former Deputy Paddy Cooney who was a strong Minister for Justice. I commend the Minister for the measures she introduced. This is the forerunner of many more strong measures. I do not claim she will solve the problem because she will not. This House does not have the courage to introduce the type of necessary draconian measures to rid this country of the scourge of crime and drugs.
The drugs problem is alarming. It is deeply worrying that Dublin is recognised internationally as a clearing house for European drugs. One of the reasons that is the case is that Fianna Fáil, which was in Government in the years leading up to 1996, presided over a burgeoning crime problem, and did not do anything about it. It now has the effrontery to identify the problems to which it failed to respond and rectify. That is the nonsense of political life, but that party engages in that type of activity for consumption outside these four walls. I do not condone that, but I understand it.
We are all concerned about the drugs problem and it should not be a political football. The politicians in this House should not be engaged in a confrontational struggle over this issue, rather there should be consensus on it. The quicker this palace of variety is eliminated and we get down to the business of addressing this problem through one of the committees of the House the better. The committees could be very effective if they were given real power, including spending power.
The appeal of drugs to vulnerable children and adolescents is rooted in the glorification of drink. For many young people the taking of drugs is a natural progression from drinking alcohol, a means by which some members of society get their kicks. The tobacco industry has been curtailed. That is welcome as smoking kills people, but that industry does not kill as many people as the drinks industry nor does it cause as much hardship to families as the drinks industry. The drinks industry has been glorified, sanctified and protected by every Government in the history of this State because of the level of tolerance of drinking and the State revenue collected from that industry.
In advertisements every ten minutes on RTE television young people are exhorted to go out for a pint of Furstenberg, Harp or Guinness. The drinks product is sold by using a good looking girl and young man. Young people watching television cannot escape the message in those advertisements. Statistics reveal that young people are starting to drink at 12 years of age and some are alcoholics by the time they are 17 or 18. It is a natural progression for those children to experiment with drugs.
Draconian measures are needed to tackle the drugs problem. We all turn our eyes away from a model that could be used to tackle the drugs problem but I am glad Deputy Kenneally has joined myself and others on the extreme right who believe in the introduction of draconian measures to deal with horrible crimes.
I might join the Deputy in the firing squad.
I had thought I was alone in this House; it is nice to know I now have an ally.
People engaged in drug trafficking. described by the media as drug barons, should be shot if we really want to see an end to the problem. That type of attitude is not regarded as quite nice in this House; it is easier to perhaps appoint a committee or commission while the problem worsens. I predict that ten years' of inactivity will make today's drugs problem appear like a tea party. That is the reality. No matter which Government may be in power in ten years' time, unless serious and immediate action is taken, crime including drugs-related crime, will be totally out of control.
The draconian measures adopted in Middle Eastern countries to counter drug trafficking have resulted in very few engaging in it. There was a recent example of a young English girl sentenced to 20 years imprisonment in Thailand having been caught with a relatively small amount of drugs in her possession.
We must introduce draconian measures not only to counter drug taking and trafficking but all unlawful activities if we are serious about combating crime. There would not be all-party support for my proposal, that those deeply involved in drug syndicates, selling drugs to unfortunate, vulnerable adolescents should be shot or, if such is not acceptable — and I suspect it would not be to most Members — imprisoned for life. However, there must be deterrents within society, the absence of which has led to our society breaking up before our eyes.
I commend the Minister on having introduced this Bill, something the main Opposition party failed to do in their eight years in office when the drugs trade continued to burgeon before reaching its present totally unacceptable level, something Deputy Kenneally half acknowledged. The Minister deserves commendation on having introduced this Bill which, while not constituting a solution, is a step in the right direction in the battle to reduce the level of drug taking. If we really want to rid our society of this scourge, draconian measures must be introduced. Deputy Browne of Wexford suggested that drug barrons should be charged with murder, a realistic proposal which should be incorporated in future legislation. I doubt if it will be done whether by my party and others or by Fianna Fáil in Government but until draconian measures are introduced the drugs scourge will continue to decimate our young people.
Newspaper reports appear to confirm that Mountjoy and other prisons are sanctuaries for drug taking which, if true, is most distressing. If drugs are being taken into Mountjoy Prison, the obvious solution is to deny its prisoners visits by family members and others. If the lurid stories circulating are true, Mountjoy Prison should be closed. I would go so far as to say those who are committed to prisons should not be allowed visitors and then they might not be so keen to engage in their erstwhile criminal activities.
I remind Deputy McGahon that for some time I have stressed my belief that this issue is and should be above politics and that there is the danger that one may refuse to listen to anybody else, in the belief that one has heard it all. I live in a community not far from the city centre within which drug taking is a daily occurrence where the problem has been a scourge for a long time.
It is wrong to contend that action was not taken heretofore. Various actions were taken. Deputy McGahon mentioned the famous "general", Martin Cahill. During my period in office in the Department of Social Welfare we arranged a good deal of "follow-up" on Martin Cahill, who shot one of our departmental officers——
Now in the Department of Justice.
——whom we knew to be a very brave man as were the other inspectors involved. Before their involvement in the case I explained the dangers in case they did not understand exactly the type of person with whom they were about to deal. Throughout operations we maintained contact with the Garda. There was a great deal of activity about which Deputy McGahon might not have been aware. Only the tip of the iceberg was visible from time to time and that is why I contend the drugs problem must be tackled on an all-party basis. Of course arguments will be advanced here about delays, lack of resources and the like, but it is the duty of my party and its spokesperson, Deputy O'Donoghue, to highlight delays and the need for urgent action and place positive proposals before the House. That is what democracy is about and in respect of which Deputy O'Donoghue is doing a very effective job.
What did the Deputy's party do during their seven years in office?
I do not want to go into the past because it is a waste of time. Any Member now dealing with the drugs problem would feel likewise. We can see the young people being affected. Young people have often approached me for help to get out of drugs related crime. I approach the health boards, the Garda, Dublin Corporation and the Departments of Social Welfare and Education for support in my endeavours to combat this horrific problem since the young people are in need of continuing help.
In the meantime we should not argue about what somebody did or did not do in the past. The Minister will confirm that numerous packages have been prepared and put through this House with the support of all Members. I remember a £30 million package, for example, to enhance the technology available to the Garda. Now we are endeavouring to push back the frontiers across which drug traffickers move. In the firm belief that they must be hit, I welcome the provisions of this Bill in countering their criminal activities.
There will be differences of opinion among Members of the House on how this problem should be tackled. It was clear the Minister was very anxious, with the support of her Cabinet colleagues, to tackle this problem thoroughly at an earlier stage but all of that is now history.
We support this Bill and want to see it enacted because it is crucial to tackle drug barons and traffickers as if they were subversives. They are subverting our young but it is hard to get that message across to people who are responsible for providing the policing. I would even go another step because of the massive intimidation when drug barons or traffickers are brought to court and have their case tried in the Special Criminal Court. I have said that for a long time but not many will go along with it for all sorts of reasons. In this Bill, action is being taken against the key people, the drug traffickers. I fully support that and I believe this measure will be widely supported in the community.
During Christmas 1994 there was a massive price reduction in ecstasy, which fell from £35 to approximately £3 to £5. The scene changed dramatically in the centre of Dublin and there was an explosion in the use of ecstasy. We pointed out at the time that this would cause huge problems which would affect our area because it is close to the city. We were very much aware of this new development and our anxieties were proved correct. In February 1995 I said it was particularly important that immediate action be taken to tackle drug trafficking and serious crime in Dublin. Large areas of the city centre and north side are dominated by ruthless criminals who prey on disadvantaged young people and menace, threaten and intimidate local communities. It is time to spend the money that the gardaí needs to put these criminals out of action. I then suggested a number of steps to be taken: (i) that the gardaí must be given the finance and equipment — and this related to the Estimates — to mount and sustain intensive surveillance and intelligence gathering by experienced detectives in specialised units. It is a highly professional sophisticated business and one needs people who are experienced and professional in tackling them. I stressed that this strategy had worked previously in the early 1980s, in the case of the Dunnes and more recently the Cahills. I said this was one of the most important steps that should be taken; (ii) reform of the law. I pointed to the fact that the gardaí do not have the power to enter premises and search for evidence in cases involving murder, attempted murder, rape or malicious wounding, without search warrants their hands are tied behind their backs. The recovery of weapons in murder or wounding cases is vital to the success of the investigation and similarly the recovery of clothing in rape, sexual assault, murder and wounding cases is vital to the success of these investigations; (iii) the need for co-operation and greater liaison between different agencies; (iv) the seizing of assets and that section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, should be immediately brought into effect to stop the laundering of stolen moneys; (v) that the bail laws should be reassessed in relation to habitual criminals.
This Bill tackles drug traffickers, which is welcome. It provides for detention up to seven days. In fairness, Deputy O'Donoghue has similar proposals in his Bill. It provides for the detention of stuffers and swallowers — some people may not be familiar with the terms but anyone who has been involved since the early 1980s will be aware that stuffers and swallowers are persons who conceal drugs on their person and thereby bring in very valuable consignments of drugs. It is particularly important that provision has been made so that a superintendent can issue a warrant as a matter of urgency and that Customs officers can be present at and participate in questioning. This is forming the links between the activities of the Garda Síochána and the Customs officers. It does not tackle the question of bail for habitual offenders or the use of the Special Criminal Court to hear the cases of drug traffickers. Nevertheless, it is particularly valuable legislation.
Surveillance is central to tackling the problems but, unfortunately, it is not a buzz word or something the papers will take up. Let us consider the surveillance at ports and airports. The European Union provided for the removal of barriers to trade and travel. I was very worried at that time about the impact of this measure from the long-term point of view. I knew that Customs officers were very vigilant at the ports; they knew the people coming through and could identify them and they noticed people who were unusual or different. It was extrordinary what a Customs official would observe, I have never ceased to be amazed at how well they observed people and situations. This is a characteristic of Customs officials and the Garda Síochána. The 600 Customs and Excise staff were redeployed to Revenue and the Department of Social Welfare. Whereas freedom of travel and trade are very important and valuable, one of the consequences was that there were no longer Customs officials to keep watch at our ports and airports. We no longer have constant surveillance and now depend on spot checks, which cannot match continuous surveillance. The constant presence of a person in uniform has its own impact because people know they can be stopped at any stage and noticed if they travel frequently. For example, the influx of tobacco on the street shows how freely it can now come into Dublin and the possibilities for bringing in drugs are just as open.
The drugs squad carry out spot checks but it is too easy to import drugs in small quantities. As we know, small quantities are very valuable. We need to reassess the question of surveillance at our ports and airports. The Bill allows Customs officers to participate with the Garda Síochána and this is welcome, but we need comprehensive co-operation between the two services. It is the task of management to create the environment within which that co-operation can take place.
On the issue of Garda surveillance, a recent newspaper article stated the IRA has identified some 200 suppliers and dealers in drugs and issued warnings saying it has its own ways of dealing with these people. However, the Garda do not need to be told who are the drug barons. It identified some 20 drug barons, traffickers and major criminals. The force has done its homework and knows with whom it is dealing. What it needs is resources and support to crack down on criminals until they can put them out of business. How can the Garda do this? It would need to provide round the clock professional surveillance which costs money and that is the reason it does not happen. We need to lean hard on the drug traffickers and the drug barons and to use the new powers under the Bill and all other powers available to ensure success. We must also pursue the assets of the drug barons and the drug traffickers who can be identified easily. They are known: they live beyond their apparent means and have obvious wealth. Obviously they have overseas accounts and other ways of laundering their money. We have to work to put them out of action. This means providing the Garda with specialised and experienced manpower to make a co-ordinated attact, to follow up the provisions of this legislation.
In that context, co-operation between the Garda and the Customs is important. At the end of January, Mr. Michael Dillon of the Customs and Excise group in the Public Service Executive Union, outlined the difference of approach between the Garda and Customs and excise in combating drug importation. The problem is that while the Garda would like to catch the major dealers red-handed, Customs seek to keep the drugs out and seize the carriers on arrival at ports and airports. He also called for greater manpower and equipment to further reduce the supply of drugs. He cited the success of Customs and Excise officers in combating the importation of drugs and listed the seizures made to date. They are to be congratulated and commended on the work they have done in the recent past in that area. We cannot afford to have differences between the approaches of Customs and Excise and the Garda. There is need for continuous co-operation between the two groups and also to use the Revenue Commissioners to pursue and nail the drug barons. If the Revenue Commissioners can do it with business people they should do it now in this area.
I stress the importance of the area based approach. Garda resources are needed in areas where there are serious drug problems, one of which is in two blocks of flats in the middle of my constituency. The Garda carried out a successful pilot study there in intensive policing which continued for at least four or five months. Unfortunately, due to a reduction in the numbers of gardaí now available the small dealers are coming back in.
I appeal to the Minister to ensure the continuation of these pilot studies and anything that is successful in the area. There is need for intensive work on an area basis and this will require the co-operation of the local agencies including the Departments of Social Welfare, Justice, Health and Education and Dublin Corporation which is making special efforts in its housing estates.
I appeal to the Minister to support the efforts being made in the area based approach. We are happy to support the Minister in these efforts and also to support the Bill.
I wish to share my time with Deputy Mary Flaherty.
Acting Chairman
That is agreed.
Cosúil leis an Teachta John Browne, is mian liom fáilte a chur roimh an Bille seo agus mo bhuíochas a thabhairt don Aire go bhfuil sé ós comhair an Teach inniú.
I compliment Deputy Woods on his speech and his approach to the problem which is one of co-operation rather than of trying to make a political meal out of it and exploiting it for a few miserable votes. The Bill is welcome as just one part of a series of measures which are badly needed to tackle this problem which is particularly difficult in Dublin. The measures being proposed must be seen as part of an integrated package which will include extra treatment facilities, health facilities, targeted education programmes and so on. The problem is undoubtedly much wider than just a criminal problem. It has been suggested that this problem could be solved if more money was thrown at the Garda. However, it is not as simple as that and it is important to recognise that. That is not to say more resources are not needed. Certainly, the idea of throwing money at the Garda, without examining how it should be spent, has a popular appeal but is of little real value in terms of tackling this problem.
Undoubtedly some of the measures proposed impinge on civil liberties. I do not have any problem with that. We may as well recognise the reality. The safeguards built in are perfectly adequate. So far as civil liberties are concerned, one has to accept that there are certain limits and when society begins to fall asunder, it is time to modify the protections provided by civil liberties for the greater benefit and welfare of society. There are some welcome and useful protections in the Bill. Section 9 provides some safeguards. Sections 2 and 4, which deal with the intervention of the courts in relation to extra detention and so on, provide adequate levels of protection. Also, the Minister has given a commitment that she will review the effectiveness of the Bill when it is up and running.
The Bill aims to deal with some of the changes in the patterns of supply of drugs over the years. Recently, there has been a worrying trend in that many drug addicts are also used as drug pushers. That is a matter of grave concern.
A number of speakers referred to the need for greater levels of co-operation between the Garda and the Revenue Commissioners. Undoubtedly there have been some welcome and worthwhile developments in this area in the past few months. The way forward may well be related to the proposal by Deputy Ring last night who referred to Al Capone and the need to tackle the people referred to as drug barons on a number of different fronts.
I have always had some difficulty with the terms "drug baron" and "drug lord". To some extent the terms "baron" and "lord" are admirable. it may be an indication of some subliminal duplicity in some people in regard to this problem. I am pleased Deputy Woods adopted the attitude he did this morning. It was in sharp contrast to the point scoring attitude adopted by Deputy John O'Donoghue. The reality is that Fianna Fáil held the Justice portfolio from 1987 to 1994. Attacks on the Minister for the action she has taken in difficult circumstances since taking office 16 months ago are little less than opportunistic and unworthy of people who should be trying to address this problem in the manner in which Deputy Woods addressed it this morning.
The difference of emphasis in Deputy Woods's contribution and the contributions of Deputies Kenneally and O'Donoghue was interesting. Deputy Woods spoke like a man who is familiar with the problem. That is not surprising because drug abuse is an enormous problem in his constituency, as it is in mine. It is wrong for anyone to seek to exploit the terrifying levels of human misery associated with this problem, both in terms of the people addicted to drugs and the victims of addicts whose lives are made a misery because of their actions.
Certain areas of Dublin are drug black spots which require special attention. I was encouraged to hear of the success of the pilot scheme initiated in Deputy Woods's constituency and I hope the lessons learned from that will be applied elsewhere and that the scheme will be broadened to include areas in the city with particularly high levels of drug addiction. It has been said that approximately 8,000 drug addicts live in the areas between the canals. This problem is enormous by any standards and it is difficult for Deputies representing constituencies outside the capital to understand the extent and the awfulness of it in Dublin.
Drug addicts are generally young and unemployed. They have low levels of education and come from dysfunctional families. Who has the ultimate responsibility for tackling this problem which is widespread both here and throughout the world? It seems to be the responsibility of the Departments of Justice and Health and, to some extent, the Department of Education. A more co-ordinated approach should be taken in dealing with this problem.
Who is responsible for the day today management of this problem? There does not seem to be any one individual charged with the overall responsibility of dealing with it. There is a need for a manager or a management committee to be appointed to ensure that all the agencies involved in dealing with this problem function in harmony and to the highest level of effectiveness.
Why has the drugs culture become such a major problem? I believe it relates to the change of emphasis in morality. To some extent, á la Margaret Thatcher, society has become an amalgam of individuals. There has been a serious disengagement from social cohesion. I am encouraged, however, by some of the statements emanating from the British Labour Party about a stake-holders' society and the need for everybody to feel they have a role and a place in society. That is difficult in a society which seems to be fuelled on discord and which is ridden with a culture of blame — we had enough of that here this morning and last night — accusation and aggravated, hostile questioning. That culture lays the foundation for the disintegration of society and this question must be addressed. According to figures quoted in a newspaper this morning there are huge numbers of single parent families. That presents us with an enormous social challenge. All these factors contribute to the types of problems we are discussing today.
On the question of tackling drug abuse, why have we not made a greater effort to study the problem? Why do we not have an institute of addiction or a chair of addiction studies? Why have we been so neglectful in adopting a structured, reasoned approach to this problem? A previous speaker referred to the major problem of drugs in our prisons but those working in the prisons believe that if the policy being advocated by Deputy McGahon were adopted prisons would be virtually unmanageable. I am not sufficiently expert to say whether that is true but it is a matter of great concern.
There are two schools of thought in regard to the strategies used to treat drug addiction, one of which emanates from the people working in Coolmine who believe that nobody should ever become involved in drugs. The other school of thought is that the problem should simply be managed. Some consensus should be reached between those differing schools of thought because that difference creates major problems in developing an effective strategy to deal with the problem.
I want to raise the question of estate management in local authority areas, particularly the Dublin Corporation area. Some significant improvements have been made but the manner in which some local authority estates were managed over the years left much to be desired. For many years, Dublin Corporation was helpless in terms of dealing with people who wreaked havoc in housing estates and flats complexes. I accept some improvements have been made and that is to be welcomed.
Reference was made to changing the bail laws in regard to habitual offenders. I agree with many of the sentiments expressed by Deputy Woods in that regard. Nobody can examine the data on the levels of offences committed by people on bail without being concerned. The data highlight the need for change and anybody who says changes should not be made in our bail laws in wrong.
I will conclude by referring to another comment made by Deputy Woods regarding the need for more surveillance. Broadly speaking, surveillance is boring and tiresome but I agree with him that it is also effective and it is the type of activity to which additional resources should be allocated.
I am glad of the opportunity to contribute to this debate and I welcome the legislation which is an important additional weapon in the fight against the increasing use of drugs in our society. The Minister and the Government are to be congratulated. I share Deputy Upton's criticism of speakers opposite who attempted to play politics with a serious issue without making any clear alternative proposals. This legislation follows the announcement in the past week of a cross-departmental response to the drugs problem involving the Departments of Health and Education. It is clear that such a response is needed to deal with this problem.
I wish to broaden the debate and deal with areas where many people would fear to tread. I watched a British television programme last night on the drugs problem in Glasgow. It was said in the programme that Glasgow is the drugs centre of the United Kingdom and it was interesting that the law officers at the front line in dealing with the problem were divided on the question of how to deal with it.
Should there be a totally controlled response or a management response to dealing with this problem? We must seriously examine that issue in addition to the problems that might arise in a more controlled environment, possibly involving elements of legislation. That is an approach which has been toyed with in certain European countries, some of which first adopted then suspended it and others which introduced elements of legislation. We need to examine and analyse all the possible responses in that regard.
It was interesting to hear some of the law officers on the programme last night say that regardless of the number of people we put in prison, there will always be people willing to become involved in the drugs market, which is very lucrative and which has an established customer base. They say routes will be found to serve those customers, regardless of how we deal with the supply aspect. At the Fine Gael conference on drugs many of us were surprised by the conclusions of experts working in the field, including those in Dublin. When there is a major drugs seizure in Dublin, the price of that drug rises and the crime levels increase. There are no simple answers in dealing with this problem. The best answer must incorporate some form of education.
Sweden has the strongest drug free environment in any country. It moved from experimenting with drug liberalisation to a totally restrictive regime. It is an unusual society. It may be unwise to put a drug free environment label onto a society that attempts to prohibit alcohol, has a state supported childcare system and an educational set up that starts at one year of age. Sweden has a State involved, structured and ordered society with an entirely different cultural background and ethos from ours.
It is important to examine the approaches taken by different countries to this problem and come up with a meaningful response. The liberalisation approach will only work if it comes about in all countries, otherwise unmanageable consequences will result. We need the debates to which Deputy Upton referred to take place at national level. At international level, Europe should move many of its justice activities in the fight against drugs away from its current weaker structural position and I hope this will happen in the context of the intergovernmental conference. Many justice issues will become Commission activities. They will not have to depend on ad hoc ministerial meetings but will get ongoing attention. Irrespective of the country in which one is dealing with the drug problem, controlling demand is critical. Residents of one area say their quality of life improves if a drug baron lives on their street and that there is more money around, even if it is by way of payoffs. In my constituency I have seen teenagers carrying metal containers and swabs of cotton wool behind doors; I can only presume what was happening behind those doors.
This problem is enormous. While it is mainly related to bad social conditions and deprivation, it is not confined to those areas. Drugs can be obtained outside many middle class schools in Dublin and drug abuse is also prevalent in richer areas. Its most serious aspects are the great destruction it causes in deprived areas and its total destruction of quality of life as a result of associated criminality.
On a television programme last night, senior law officers were divided as to whether the fight against drugs would be better served if they were legalised. We need the structures suggested by Deputy Upton, constant analysis and an integrated approach at national and European levels. Through the Intergovernmental Conference, I hope we will see the fight against drugs — our Minister of State has been actively pursuing this matter — becoming more centralised in a way that draws on the substantial experience of the approaches made by different European countries.
I welcome this legislation, particularly the package announced last week. Controlling demand for drugs is the best way of ensuring our society will become less drugs centred in the future. We should find out why these people turn to drugs and offer them better alternatives.
I have only a limited practical experience of the drugs problem, which I gained from within my constituency. Deputies repeatedly state that the single biggest issue on our minds is law and order. The Eastern Health Board set about establishing a methadone and needle exchange clinic in my constituency which, predictably, brought about a hostile reaction from the settled community, parents and community leaders. However, there is a great lack of recognition of the seriousness of the problem and of what should be done about attempting to treat people afflicted by this dreadful addiction.
We tried to make people understand the necessity of having this service. It was even discussed in a recent "Prime Time" programme in which I participated, which addressed the need for attention and urgent action. The first half of the programme set the scene for the taking of drugs and the related aspects of its knock-on effects. They interviewed people who were in the process of seeking or currently getting treatment and identified the serious crime costs related to drug taking. This goes to the heart of what the Minister and Deputy O'Donoghue, in introducing his Misuse of Drugs Bill, are attempting to do. There is widespread agreement across the House that this problem must be tackled, although we may differ in emphasis on how to do this. Previous speakers have shown a great depth of knowledge on the issue.
Our present generation of constituents, especially in larger housing estates, seem to be expert in telling us what is wrong and what should be done about the problem, yet the problem seems to have come from behind us. Families with teenagers are now at the coalface regarding the availability of drugs and young people can tell a person what drug is available and where to get it. As one goes into this problem in further detail, it becomes more complex and difficult to attack.
I would tackle the source of these drugs, the UN member states from which drugs are readily available.