Trevor Sargent
Question:6 Mr. Sargent asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs the contribution, if any, the Government has made towards the funding of trials to bring to justice those guilty of genocide in Rwanda. [5303/96]
Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Rwandan Genocide.
Kathleen Lynch
Question:46 Kathleen Lynch asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs if his attention has been drawn to reports in the French daily newspaper Liberation that over 100,000 Hutus have been killed in Rwanda in revenge killings tolerated by the RPF; if his attention has further been drawn to the fact that over 60,000 Rwandans are currently being held pending trial on suspicion of genocide and that they are being held in inhumane conditions; and his views on the options open to the international community to assist in bringing the perpetrators of genocide to justice. [5271/96]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 46 together.
The restoration of a functioning and independent system of justice is essential to the process of national reconciliation in Rwanda. The Government strongly supported the establishment of the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda which was established under UN Security Council Resolution 988 of 8 November 1994 with the task of prosecuting those responsible for genocide and other serious violations of international law. Investigations by the tribunal have been focused on approximately 400 identified suspects and its initial indictments of eight people arising from massacres in the Kibuye region were announced on 12 December. The tribunal Prosecutor, Justice Richard J. Goldstone, hopes to begin full trial hearings before the end of this month.
Both bilaterally and together with our EU partners, we have repeatedly confirmed our preparedness to assist in the restoration of an impartial and effective system. Since 1995, we have spent over £1.52 million on the justice sector and in support of human rights initiatives in Rwanda. This funding has been allocated, as follows, to a broad range of entities, which have central responsibilities for ensuring that those responsible for the genocide are brought to trial and that mechanisms exist to ensure full accountability for human rights violations while having regard at the same time to the need for national reconciliation:
We have given: £150,000 to the International Tribunal for Rwanda to issue indictments and bring to trial those responsible for the genocide; £615,000 in direct bilateral assistance to the Rwandan Ministry of the Interior for communal police training and to restore the legal structures in the Ministry of Justice, which has found itself without the administrative capacity to hold trials: £125,000 to the UN High Commission for Human Rights and to the UN/EU Human Rights Field Operation for human rights monitors in Rwanda; £132,000 for the International Conference on Genocide organised by the Government of Rwanda last November in Kigali, including a follow-up grant of £82,000 to establish a small secretariat which will implement the recommendations of the conference; £350,000 to support the International Committee of the Red Cross, who are working with the Government to relieve prison overcrowding and improve conditions and, in many cases are responsible for the care and feeding of prisoners in Rwandan prisons, and £150,000 to indigenous Rwandan NGOs, including women's groups, which aim to promote self-help, reintegration and reconciliation at local level in Rwanda.
I am aware of recent media reports that over 100,000 Hutus have been victims of revenge killings in Rwanda in which the Rwanda Army has been implicated. While recognising that Hutus continue to be victims of ongoing ethnic violence in Rwanda the UN has not so far been able to substantiate these allegations. They have been specifically denied by the Permanent Representative of Rwanda to the United Nations on 29 February. The Government is not currently in a position to discount or substantiate these reports but is keeping them under active review. It is our firm opinion that the perpetrators of any revenge killings which may have been carried out should be brought to justice before the appropriate authorities without any further discrimination.
I can assure Deputies that the Government will continue to focus on the key issues of justice, human rights, national reconciliation and accountability for the genocide and other killings, in Rwanda.
While acknowledging that none of us can visualise or appreciate the huge violation of human rights in Rwanda and that Ireland has contributed aid through its membership of various organisations which is to be welcomed, will the Minister of State agree that such aid does not constitute the overall solution to its enormous problems? I am not at all sure confirmation of our preparedness to become involved is all that convincing, given the severity of the overall position in that country — it smacks somewhat of another accusation, of "standing idly by", with regard to a statement of Governments some time ago in another connection. Is there anything further the Minister of State considers we can and should do given that there are thousands of persons packed into prisons every day many of whom die from hunger and maltreatment while awaiting trail on charges of genocide? Does the Minister envisage a time when justice will be seen to be done, when some normality and basic human rights will be restored in Rwanda because, until such time, all our contributions will be squandered.
Ireland played an important role attempting to assist the peace process in Rwanda and ensure that the genocide that took place there does not recur. I draw the Deputy's attention to the many Irish public officials, aid workers and NGOs, in many cases, substantially financed by Irish aid, who have undertaken extraordinary work on behalf of Rwandans and the more than 1.5 million people outside its borders.
I would not like the Deputy to think that Ireland has not played and does not continue to play a very substantial role in this respect. Our role has been recognised internationally and the visit by our President last October put even greater emphasis on our interest in Rwanda.
The situation in Rwanda is extremely difficult and sensitive but there is a substantial restoration of public order with the people carrying on normal lives and the return to working the land. This is in the context of at least 500,000 people although most estimates suggest it is nearer to one million people, mainly Tutsis and moderate Hutus, having been killed in the genocide. It is very difficult to envisage a society that has suffered such a grievous loss returning to normality in a brief time.
There are a number of peacekeeping efforts being brokered to which we have been a party. I met Commissioners Bonino and Pinheiro on the matter as recently as ten days ago. The European Commission is now sending, with our very strong support and partly at our suggestion, a specific European Union Commission special representative, Mr. Ajello, who has done sterling work in Mozambique in trying to end the conflict there. We are supporting Mr. Ajello's appointment. He will be going to the region shortly and we hope his efforts, with those of the former US President Carter and former President Nyerere of Tanzania, will set the scene for the administration of justice and reconciliation.
The reconciliation and genocide conference was historic and it brought to Rwanda people from Ethiopia, South African Jewish people who had survived the Holocaust and people from Central and South America, all of whom suffered great traumas. It was specifically to discuss how to move Rwandan society to the next stage of justice and reconciliation. It has to be said — and this is one of the greatest failings of the international community — that the tribunal failed to indict those who were the instigators and ringleaders of the genocide. I think the Rwandan Government now accepts that not everybody involved in the genocide can be arrested but the ringleaders and the instigators must be. Two years after the genocide, only eight indictments have been served. One of the greatest confidence building measures would be for the international tribunal and Rwandan justice to proceed to indict the instigators and ringleaders.
We have given money to the International Red Cross who is responsible for monitoring the condition of the prisoners. It feeds and provides water to almost all prisoners at this stage. I visited a jail in the southern city of Butare. The jail was meant for 1,100 people but there were thousands in it. They were not being physically ill treated but the degree of overcrowding was astonishing. This is a very complex situation and all our efforts are to move towards justice and reconciliation and an end to the culture of impunity following the genocide and we will continue to work for that.
There appears to be very little co-operation from the Rwandan Government in apprehending those who have been accused of genocide because I take it that most of them are still within the Rwandan Border.
Will the Minister define the relationship between the Irish and the Rwandan Governments? Given the Rwandan's Government record many people believe the relationship should be at arm's length.
I understand that all the people who have been indicted by the tribunal are outside the Rwandan Borders and it requires the co-operation of other Governments for these people to be brought before the tribunal. The Rwandan Government has assisted in the restoration of a certain kind of order and reconstruction of civil society based on the advice available to us from the European Union. As a result of a number of visits by the President and myself to the region and the advice of former US President Carter and former President Nyerere we believe that while the Rwandan Government must be extremely careful on the question of human rights, the Government offers one of the hopes for the return of stability and reconciliation. That does not mean we have not clearly criticised the Government about human rights abuses and we will continue to draw to the attention of the Government any human rights abuses which come to our attention.
Will the Minister state the amount of money spent on funding trials as this was the subject of the question, not the large amount of money she gave? How many suspects have been identified and how many of those have been indicted for genocide?
All the headings I read out were in the context of our assistance to the justice system, the care of prisoners and the recreation of the communal policing system. Given that Rwanda has a French judicial structure, that is essential to the process. All the moneys, which totalled £1.52 million, are in fact related to the reconstruction of the justice system in Rwanda. That money has been very well spent. The conference on genocide was about ways of moving forward to reconciliation in Rwandan society and dealing with how one comes to terms with the fact that so many were involved in the perpetration of genocide. It would not be possible for all those people to be brought to trial and in a constructive way, therefore, the focus should be on a trial or other process to deal with the ringleaders and the instigators. Many millions of people died and yet there were no major trials after the overthrow of the Derg. Delegates at the conference had very valuable examples to offer and the money spent on it was extremely good value.
I listened to the comprehensive answers to several of these questions. I do not believe people can move forward in society while the perpetrators or people suspected of these crimes are in prison and from what I read in various newspapers it is suggested that as many as 60,000 people are still held in captivity. I agree that all of them cannot be tried. Nobody is suggesting Ireland alone can take on this enormous task. It should be taken on in conjunction with our partners in Europe. We have had lengthy discussions on neutrality and where we stand. The task of sifting out who is responsible, who should be allowed go free, who should be detained in prison and who should carry out the trials should be for an agency other than the Rwandan Government. Otherwise no matter how people are treated it will be seen as a form of revenge. What steps are being taken by the Department of Foreign Affairs to ensure that justice is done and seen to be done for these 60,000 people who are held in what appear to be no more than pens?
An outside agency, the international tribunal, was to be responsible for trying the people accused of genocide. The shortcomings of the international tribunal, under the auspices of the UN, has led to many people still being held in jail. I attended a recent meeting of more than 200 people who worked in Rwanda, including many members of the clergy and missionaries. They strongly supported the Irish Government's position and what it did in Rwanda. The leader of the European Union monitors to Rwanda is an Irishman with much experience in the field. We have listened closely to the advice of those people who have been so involved with that country.
That concludes questions for today.