Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 May 1996

Vol. 465 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 5, motion re. leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 38]; No. 6, a technical motion re. Supplementary Estimate [Vote 42]; No. 7, motion re. leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 42]; and, subject to the agreement of Nos. 6 and 7, Supplementary Estimate [Vote 42]; No. 29, Powers of Attorney Bill, 1995 [Seanad] — Order for Report and, subject to the Order being made, the Report and Final Stages of the Powers of Attorney Bill, 1995 [Seanad] and No. 30, statements on Delivering Better Government — A Programme of Change for the Irish Civil Service.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: Nos. 5, 6 and 7 shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith and, subject to the agreement of Nos. 6 and 7, the debate on the Supplementary Estimate [Vote 42], if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 5.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening speech of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; (iv) the Minister shall be called upon not later than 5.15 p.m. to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes; and (v) any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith. Subject to the Order being made on No. 29, the proceedings on the Report and Final Stages of the Powers of Attorney Bill, 1995 [Seanad], if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform.

The following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 30: the opening statement of a Minister or Minister for State and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 40, motion re. establishment of regional boards of education (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There are a number of matters to put to the House. Is the proposal that Nos. 5, 6 and 7 shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith satisfactory?

Mr. B. Ahern

It is not satisfactory. For 18 months the Whips and the party leaders have been attempting to reach agreement on organising the Order of Business in a more meaningful way and dealing with written questions during the summer recess. Proposals to be discussed by the Whips later today and tomorrow indicate a rowing back on Fianna Fáil's proposals when in Government and the Government's proposals produced by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Jim Higgins, in January 1995. We are making no progress on ordering matters of urgent importance on the Order of Business or on what we believe was a reasonable request that written questions be taken on days when committees meet in the House in July and September. Yesterday, the Taoiseach in a funny way——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to make a speech now.

Mr. B. Ahern

A speech might take less time than 15 votes. Perhaps the Government will want to listen to me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is concerned only with procedure.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 57.

Tá

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhamjee, Moosajee.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Bhreathnach, Niamh.
• Bree, Declan.
• Broughan, Tommy.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• Deasy, Austin.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Dukes, Alan M.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Lowry, Michael.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Penrose, William.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, John.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Spring Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Upton, Pat.
• Walsh, Eamon.
• Yates, Ivan.

Níl

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Brennan, Matt.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Flood, Chris.
• Foxe, Tom.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hilliard, Colm M.
• Hughes, Seamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Keogh, Helen.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John. (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• McDaid, James.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the Supplementary Estimate, Vote 42, satisfactory and agreed?

Mr. D. Ahern

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is: "That the proposals for dealing with the Supplementary Estimate, Vote 42, be agreed".

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 58.

Tá

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhamjee, Moosajee.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Bhreathnach, Niamh.
• Bree, Declan.
• Broughan, Tommy.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• Deasy, Austin.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Dukes, Alan M.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Lowry, Michael.
• Penrose, William.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, John.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Upton, Pat.
• Walsh, Eamon.
• Yates, Ivan.

Níl

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Brennan, Matt.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John. (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael P.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Calley, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Flood, Chris.
• Foley, Denis.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hilliard, Colm M.
• Hughes, Seamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Keogh, Helen.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McDaid, James.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald; Níl, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 29, the Powers of Attorney Bill, 1995 [Seanad], agreed? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 30, statements on Delivering Better Government satisfactory? Agreed.

Mr. B. Ahern

On current legislation, will the Taoiseach indicate when the convention on the transfer of prisoners will become operative and when the prisoners concerned will be transferred, especially in the light of the defective forensic tests? Is he aware that the forensic test issue relates to almost 50 per cent of Irish prisoners in UK jails?

The Taoiseach

The legislation in question has been passed, therefore, it is not promised legislation. Forensic tests have nothing to do with transfer issues. If prosecutions are invalid because of faulty evidence, that has nothing to do with the transfer of prisoners. Prisoners who would be transferred would be those whose convictions were valid.

Miss Harney

When is it likely that legislation will be introduced to relax the rule on Cabinet confidentiality?

The Taoiseach

That legislation is being drafted. I am not sure when it will be ready. It will probably be ready in a few months.

Éamon Ó Cuív

Will the Taoiseach allow time to debate the issue of the forensic tests. Legislation on the transfer of sentenced prisoners was passed in this House last year.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question appertaining to legislation in this area? The Deputy may not make a speech now.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I do not intend to. The issue of the forensic tests seriously affects the transfer of sentenced prisoners.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way to raise that matter.

Éamon Ó Cuív

Convicted prisoners are in a quandary. If they accept a transfer they will not be able to lodge an appeal.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is quite out of order now. He is surely hearing the Chair on this matter.

Éamon Ó Cuív

This is a serious issue. It affects 11 of the 24 prisoners concerned. We should have an opportunity to debate this matter in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a question on it.

Mr. Martin

Will the Taoiseach ensure that the findings of the Price Waterhouse investigation into the arts examination fiasco are published and debated in this House prior to the commencement of this year's leaving certificate examinations?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way to raise that matter.

Mr. Martin

We should deal with this issue prior to the commencement of the examinations.

Dr. Woods

Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Government intends to introduce an amendment to the Family Law Act to cater for the 6,000 marriages which will take place from August to October which might be void in view of a possible defect in the law? Will the Taoiseach indicate what the Government intends to do about the Marriages Bill, 1996, which is listed as item No. 50 on today's Order Paper? The Bill should be amended to establish a clearcut exemption for those who will get married in August, September or October.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is adequate.

The Taoiseach

This potential difficulty was identified by Deputy Shatter. The Government has examined the matter and taken advice from the Attorney General and on the basis of the interpretation Acts there is not a problem in this area.

Dr. Woods

There is a problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Woods, we cannot debate this matter now. Deputy Woods asked a question, he got a reply and there cannot be a debate.

Dr. Woods

There is still a problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should raise it some other time.

Dr. Woods

A doubt exists and it need to be resolved.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Woods, please obey the Chair.

Dr. Woods

That doubt could be resolved very simply. The Taoiseach has been misadvised. There is still a doubt. That is the reality and he should put matters right.

Mr. O'Dea

Is the Taoiseach aware that correspondence reported in one of today's national newspapers validates what Deputy Woods said?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are having a continuation of something I have ruled on.

Mr. O'Dea

This area needs to be clarified. What is the status of Deputy Shatter's Bill? Will the Taoiseach move to rectify the position? Will he give a simple "yes" or "no" to that question?

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Will the Taoiseach indicate the standing of the proposed third banking force legislation suggested by the left wing arm of his Government as a means of rescuing our financial services?

An Ceann Comhairle

We do not need elaboration on that.

The Taoiseach

As I told the House on a number of occasions, the question of legislation on financial institutions is under consideration.

Miss Harney

Yesterday I asked the Taoiseach if the ministerial ban on meetings with Sinn Féin extended to telephone contact and he told me it did. When I asked him if there had been telephone contact with Sinn Féin he said he was not certain. Has he been able to clarify the matter overnight?

An Ceann Comhairle

Are there not questions today to the Taoiseach? Perhaps it might be more appropriate to raise this matter then.

Miss Harney

Questions are not tabled on this matter. I thought the Taoiseach would have clarified the matter when I asked the question. I take it from the Taoiseach's silence there has been telephone contact.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should not take anything from my silence. The position is that I abide by the rules of the Chair. The Deputy is attempting to ask a supplementary question appropriate to Question Time and that is not in order on the Order of Business.

Miss Harney

Yesterday, the Taoiseach told me he was not sure about the matter. As this is an important matter, I assumed he would be certain about it by now.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy wishes to table another parliamentary question, she may do so. The question she raised yesterday was specific and without notice. If she wants to table a question with notice, she will get an answer.

Mr. H. Byrne

Given that the current six weeks subsidy voted by the Dáil to the rendering industry is about to expire and that without that industry the beef industry will grind to a halt——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, that appears to be a question and he knows how to proceed in that regard.

Mr. H. Byrne

——has the Government any plans to secure the future of the rendering industry?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Byrne, please desist.

Miss de Valera

Will the Taoiseach tell us if Mr. Fergus Finlay, whom we all know as the Tánaiste's adviser, will continue to have a role in Northern policy——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, let us not refer to persons, especially persons outside this House, who have no defence against accusations made against them in this privileged assembly. Deputy, please desist.

Mr. D. Ahern

Somebody has put out his candle.

Miss de Valera

I am not making any accusations, I am asking a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please desist. The Deputy should not bring in personalities.

Miss de Valera

I will rephrase my question. Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Tánaiste's adviser will continue to have a role in Northern policy now that he is director of policy for the declining Labour Party?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is circumventing the ruling of the Chair. I call Deputy Burke to raise a question on what I presume will be a relevant subject.

Mr. R. Burke

The order of business runs to two pages and I would like to know if it is intended to allocate time today for statements on the reported departure of one of the better known advisers to the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Statements on the Order of Business are not in order.

Mr. R. Burke

He is leaving to work for the Labour Party.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to the business ordered.