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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 May 1996

Vol. 465 No. 8

Extradition Application: Statements.

I think it right in the light of events in the House yesterday that I should take the opportunity to make a further statement on this matter. My intention in making this statement is to set the record straight, to set out the facts of this case and to address the specific matters raised in so far as they have relevance to me and my Department. Deputies will have the opportunity to put questions to me when I finish my statement.

I ask Deputies to bear in mind, however, that I am constrained in what I say as the person who was the subject of the request is now before the courts as a result of separate proceedings in this jurisdiction. Equally, Members should be careful about saying anything which would prejudice either that prosecution or the entitlement to a fair trial. I emphasised this when I answered questions in the House on 15 May and the Taoiseach emphasised it again yesterday. It nevertheless bears repeating.

I will set out in some detail the sequence of events in this case for the information of Deputies. Before doing so, I want also to say something about the functions of the different State agencies involved in processing a request for the backing of a warrant submitted under Part III of the Extradition Act, 1965, so that the sequence of events can be better understood.

Warrants are transmitted directly from the requesting police force to the Garda authorities who are responsible for endorsing the warrants for execution in the State in accordance with the provisions of the 1965 Act. Other agencies which have a role under that legislation are the Attorney General's office by virtue, in particular, of the powers conferred on the Attorney by sections 44A and 44B and the Minister for Justice by virtue of the powers conferred by section 44 of the 1965 Act. The Chief State Solicitor's office also has a function by virtue of its role in representing the State in proceedings on foot of the Act.

Warrants and supporting documentation are examined by the Attorney General's office, first, for the purpose of the powers conferred on the Attorney General by sections 44A and 44B of the 1965 Act — as inserted by section 2 of the (Extradition Amendment) Act, 1987 — under which a warrant shall not be endorsed if the Attorney General so directs and, second, to enable him to advise on any other matter of law arising.

My functions in applications of this kind derive from the power vested in me, as Minister for Justice, under section 44 of the 1965 Act to direct that a warrant shall not be endorsed in certain circumstances as, for example, where I am of the opinion that the offence for which return is sought is a political offence, revenue offence or so on. The Office of the Chief State Solicitor also has a function in the matter since that office is responsible for representing the State in extradition proceedings. A similar number of agencies are involved on the British side. Incidentally, the Attorney General and the Minister for Justice get copies of the warrant only. The original goes to and remains with the Garda authorities.

The role of the different agencies involved, and their specific functions, are relevant to some of the questions raised yesterday, as is the fact, which I pointed out in my reply to parliamentary questions on 15 May, that the procedures which needed to be followed in this case were followed at short notice and within a tight timeframe.

The warrant and supporting documents which formed the basis for the application in this case were issued on Friday, 12 April, the day before the application was brought in the District Court. A copy of the warrant and supporting documents was faxed to the Attorney General's Office by the Crown Prosecution Service during the course of that evening as arrangements were being made for the original documents to be brought to Dublin. The warrant and supporting documents in this case, other than the documents required by the Attorney General for the purpose of the functions he is required to exercise under sections 44A and 44B of the Extradition Act, 1965, were subsequently forwarded directly by the requesting police force to the Garda authorities.

The warrant was brought to Dublin by a British detective superintendent and handed over to the Garda at about 9.45 p.m. on Friday night. It was then placed in the custody of a sergeant attached to the unit which processes applications under Part III in Garda headquarters. Copies of the warrant and supporting documents, which would form the basis for the application in court, were made available to my Department by both the Attorney General's Office and, following their receipt, the Garda authorities.

The Garda authorities also forwarded to my Department at that stage, which was at around 10 p.m., a copy of a minute from the Attorney General's Office to the Garda Commissioner indicating that the Attorney General had considered the request for extradition and decided not to give a direction under section 44A of the 1965 Act. That advice also stated that the warrant and supporting documents were otherwise in order for endorsement in accordance with section 43 of the Act. The documentation was accompanied by a covering letter from the Garda authorities which asked whether I intended to intervene under section 44.

A submission was accordingly prepared by one of my officials for my consideration. The file in the matter was brought to me by officials from my Department after midnight. I decided not to intervene in the case and my decision was conveyed to the Garda authorities shortly after midnight on the morning of 13 April. The warrant could only then be endorsed by the Garda authorities. The person concerned was arrested on foot of an endorsed warrant on the morning of 13 April and brought before Dublin District Court No. 4 where it became evident that the warrant before the court was not the original document. The decision was subsequently taken not to proceed with the application and the person was accordingly discharged. The Taoiseach has dealt with the conduct of those proceedings in the replies he gave yesterday to Private Notice Questions on the matter and I have nothing further to add to what he said.

The first indication I received that a problem had arisen in regard to the proceedings before the District Court was when an official of my Department, who was being apprised of developments, telephoned me on the morning of 13 April. At that point it was not clear exactly what had gone wrong. The suggestion was that the warrant was incomplete, was not an original or both. It will be appreciated that there was an element of confusion surrounding the events that had transpired at that time. I asked the official who had telephoned me about these developments to convey to the Garda authorities, through the Secretary of my Department, that I wanted a full report on the matter as soon as possible. This was done.

As far as I can recall, my only public comment on the matter, before answering questions in the House, was in response to questions put to me in the course of the hand over of the Curragh military gaol to my Department on 15 April when I indicated I had sought a report on the matter and also stated that any procedures found not to have worked well would be reviewed.

A parliamentary question subsequently tabled to the Taoiseach by Deputy Harney for answer on 24 April asked about the person or jurisdiction who had responsibility for the documentation in the extradition proceedings concerned. That question was referred to my Department as was entirely proper given that the Garda authorities received the documentation in respect of the application. I made that clear when I answered that question together with a subsequent priority question tabled by Deputy O'Donnell on 15 May. There is nothing untoward, therefore, in the transfer of that question to me.

Arising from those questions the Garda authorities were requested by my Department to submit material in connection with the preparation of the reply, including the report on the circumstances surrounding the difficulties which arose in the case. A response was received in my Department on 9 May. A number of queries were subsequently raised by my Department on foot of that report, but the precise reasons for the difficulties which arose at the court hearing on 13 April still remained unclear. I saw that report on the morning of 15 May while preparing my questions. I accordingly informed the House, in responding to those questions on 15 May that I had been informed by the Garda authorities, inter alia, that:

the reason the extradition proceedings failed in this instance was because the warrant which was produced in court was not the original warrant...

and

... that a review of the steps taken in dealing with this matter has, to date, failed to establish the reason the original warrant was not available to the court.

I went on to say:

It is clear, therefore, that the full facts which resulted in the original warrant not being presented at the court hearing have not been established at this stage. I am not satisfied with the delay in establishing the full facts and I have requested the Garda authorities to conclude their inquiries within a matter of days. I will make the full facts available as soon as they have been determined subject to advice on any legal constraints that may exist.

The matter was pursued by my Department and the final Garda report on the matter was received by my Department on 21 May when a follow up written parliamentary question from Deputy O'Donnell also fell for answer. My response to that question was based on that report. That reply was imparted in the following terms:

I am informed by the Garda authorities that they have now completed their inquiries into the circumstances surrounding the application referred to in the question. It has been established that an original warrant was in fact received by the Garda Síochána on 12 April 1996 but that a copy of the warrant rather than an original was endorsed for execution by the gardaí and subsequently presented to the court. An extensive search has failed to locate the original warrant. The Garda authorities have concluded that the original warrant was mislaid by the Garda and that the only explanation is that the original warrant was destroyed accidentally when copies of the warrant were being made. Because the photocopies of the original documents were of such quality, it was not realised that the original warrant was missing until the court hearing on 13 April 1996.

Responsibility for ensuring that the original documents transmitted by the requesting country seeking the extradition of a person are available to the court rests with the Garda authorities.

I went on to say:

This is the first time an error of this sort has occurred. In general, extradition arrangements between the United Kingdom and Ireland work well. This is evident from the most recent report on the operation of Part III of the Extradition Act, 1965, which was laid before the House in December last. The report, which is in respect of the year 1994, records that 15 persons were extradited in 1994, seven to England and eight to Northern Ireland.

I also indicated that the House could be assured that the necessary lessons would be drawn from the difficulties experienced on this occasion and that the Garda authorities were reviewing the procedures involved in processing the documents required in extradition cases. I also indicated that they would introduce any safeguards needed to ensure that the type of error they made on this occasion will not recur. Deputies will, I hope, accept that this is an entirely proper and appropriate response to something which the Garda authorities, in a public statement issued yesterday, characterised as a mistake caused by human error.

Deputies will also, I hope, accept that the record clearly shows I have acted scrupulously in seeking to present the Dáil with the facts in this case as and when they became available to me. I accept there was a delay in establishing those facts, but there was not a delay in bringing them to the attention of the House, or a wider audience. As I indicated in my reply on Tuesday, I am also satisfied the delay in establishing those facts reflected in part the necessity to liaise with all the agencies involved in the proceedings in both jurisdictions to establish the full facts.

Some Deputies remarked that it must have been obvious long before now that it was premature to blame the British authorities for what happened. I emphasise again that I did not at any stage attribute blame. I decided — quite properly — to wait until I knew the conclusion drawn by the Garda from its investigation before I said anything. I did not receive that information until 21 May and I made a public statement that day, based on that information. It would have been wrong for me, as Minister for Justice, to proceed to make statements attributing responsibility to anybody without the facts.

All the individuals concerned, including the sergeant who had custody of the warrant, have a right to fair procedures. This, as Deputies know, applies to all employees. It would have been wrong for the Minister or anybody else to proceed to attribute blame or cast doubt until all concerned had a full opportunity of explaining themselves. To ensure that the reply received the appropriate publicity, I also issued a statement containing the substance of the reply I gave to Deputy O'Donnell.

There are three further issues which I wish to address. The first of these relates to a reference by the Taoiseach in the Dáil yesterday to a casual conversation in which he recalls me as saying something to the effect that "it may be that the problem is on our side". I made that remark to the Taoiseach in the course of a conversation about other matters before a meeting of the Northern Ireland Cabinet sub-committee on Sunday night last. The record speaks clearly. It was not possible until Tuesday last, when I received the final report from the Garda authorities, to say where responsibility for the difficulties lay. I made no attempt to attribute responsibility for those difficulties in any public comment I made. Equally, I made clear in my reply to questions on 15 May that the Garda review had at that stage failed to establish the reason the original warrant was not available to the court. That, obviously, did not exclude the possibility that responsibility could have — as has now been established — rested with the Garda themselves.

It was not unreasonable, I submit, when some weeks had elapsed with no final outcome to the Garda investigation, that I should begin to wonder whether the fault perhaps lay with the Garda themselves. The fact that I raised the possibility with the Taoiseach could, under no circumstances, justify any public statement by me mentioning such a possibility. The only correct course — the one I followed — was to wait for the facts to be reported to me.

What I did, when the facts of the matter were clarified by the Garda authorities, was to bring them to the attention of the House immediately. That was done by way of my reply to Deputy O'Donnell's written question on the matter. This, I believe, was the correct and reasoned course of action for me to follow. Ministers cannot rely on the luxury of speculation, but need to deal with fact. That is especially the case in circumstances where, as the Taoiseach pointed out yesterday, the Garda review was primarily concerned with procedures within the force and could reflect on the performance of individual members.

The second issue of substance raised in yesterday's proceedings, and for which I have responsibility, is the question of when the British authorities were informed that responsibility for the error lay with the Irish authorities. The answer to this is that they were informed, as was this House, as soon as possible after the Garda report in the matter was received in my Department. In addition, I understand the Garda authorities were in contact with their counterparts during that day, 21 May.

The third point I want to mention is that yesterday evening I discussed this matter with the Garda Commissioner with whom I was attending a meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference in London. In the course of that conversation I learned that the sergeant who had custody of the warrant in this case had been transferred to other duties. I sought precise details on this matter and learned — about an hour ago — that the transfer took place on the directions of the Commissioner on 18-19 April.

Now we know.

The sergeant was in charge of the unit which which deals with extradition matters.

There is no political responsibility.

He was the officer who had custody of the warrant in this case and the Commissioner informed me——

This is the second time someone has been dumped on.

——that he felt it would be inappropriate for this sergeant to have responsibility for handling extradition papers until the circumstances of the present case had been fully cleared up.

Who does the Minister think she is codding?

It is not the practice of Ministers to ordinarily confirm or deny the existence of a warrant for the return of a person under Part III of the 1965 Act in the ordinary way and I would be reluctant to depart from that practice except for the fact that the existence of such a warrant has already been made public. Therefore, in the exceptional circumstances which apply in this case, I am prepared to confirm that fact and also the fact that the warrant in question has been endorsed and available for execution since 14 April as and when the need arises.

This is a case in which human error led to the collapse of proceedings. The procedures will need to be reviewed and tightened to avoid a repetition. The process is already well under way.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Woods.

I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed. Agreed.

I was informed by my party Whip that this debate would take place at 10.30 a.m. The Minister has read a carefully prepared speech which, obviously, took some time to prepare and type. When was it prepared? Was a decision taken yesterday to climb down and give in as a result of the dogged parliamentary persistence of the Opposition? I welcome the Government's climb-down, but regret the devious and sharp way in which it has been done and the inadequate time given to the Opposition to prepare properly for this debate.

What about the sharp way in which the Deputy dealt with the matter on "Morning Ireland"?

It was not dogged persistence, but animal behaviour.

I wish to refer to a number of specific points made by the Minister. She said she did not at any time attribute blame. On 15 April there were reports in the media of statements by the Government Press Office attributing blame and putting it squarely on the British authorities. This was not denied or retracted in any subsequent statement by the Government.

On 24 April the Taoiseach said in the House that there was no hint of suspicion and that he had no reason to believe the fault lay on the Irish side. The obvious conclusion was that it lay on the British side.

In the Attorney General's office.

On 15 May the Minister said in the House that at that stage she did not know. On 24 April it was, definitively, the fault of the British authorities. On 15 May this became a "don't know" and, ultimately, on 21 May the blame was transferred to the other side, the full facts were in the public domain, that it was the fault of the Irish authorities.

We deeply regret that this debate is taking place today only after the Government's agreement was wrung out of it by the parliamentary persistence of the Opposition. This is the antithesis of openness, transparency and accountability, the basis on which the Government came to office; instead we have secrecy, obfuscation and cover-up.

The facts of the case are clear. An application to have Mr. Anthony Duncan extradited to the United Kingdom for offences allegedly committed there failed in the Dublin District Court on 13 April. During the proceedings, as reported in the press, counsel for the State indicated that, after discussions with the Attorney General and-or his office at lunch time, she had been instructed not to proceed with the case because the warrant contained a serious defect. All material parties, the Attorney General, his counsel, the Minister and the Garda Síochána, knew, therefore, that the warrant produced in court on 13 April was a photocopy. The only net issue that remains is who was responsible.

The Taoiseach and the Minister expect us to believe that it took the Garda Síochána, at the highest level, almost six weeks to discover that the document went missing in their office and was mislaid by them. The Minister further asks us to believe that during this six weeks period the Garda Síochána were able to construct a Chinese wall between them and failed to give her any hint of what was happening. This beggars belief.

With that knowledge, the Taoiseach informed the House on 24 April that there was no hint of suspicion that the fault lay on this side of the Irish Sea. I am sure that in preparing to reply to parliamentary questions on that date his Department contacted the Garda Síochána, the Attorney General's office and the Department of Justice. On 15 April the Government Press Secretary said that the fault definitely lay on the British side. Yet, on 24 April the Taoiseach said that he had no clue that the fault lay where it was, ultimately, found to lie.

On 15 May the Minister informed the House that it was uncertain where the fault lay. What was certain, therefore, on 24 April became uncertain on 15 May and, ultimately, the story was reversed 360 degrees on 21 May. I do not find this or the Minister's explanation for that progression of events acceptable.

The Minister stated — this is the first time this information has been made available to us — that the Garda sergeant responsible was transferred to other duties in accordance with internal Garda disciplinary procedures on 18 April. The Garda Síochána knew, therefore, on that date that the document went missing in Garda Headquarters and that they were responsible. Otherwise, why take disciplinary action against the sergeant? All the material facts of the case, therefore, were known on 18 April. That is the reality. Yet the Minister for Justice told us she did not know until 21 May what the Garda Síochána, her political subordinates, knew. She told us she did not even have a hint of it until the final written report was presented to her with a flourish on 21 May and that she informed the House at the first opportunity.

I am willing to wager that without the persistence of Opposition Deputies and the way this matter was pursued in Parliament, the facts of this case would never have come into the public domain. Dogged parliamentary persistence has got us a drip-feed of information and a litany of evasions, half truths, camouflage and cover ups. If this matter had not been pursued in Parliament, the Garda Síochána, the Department of Justice, the Minister and the Government would have found out but the public would never have been informed. It was only under parliamentary pressure that the facts of this case came out.

Does the Minister expect us to believe that although the Garda Síochána knew precisely what happened on 18 April, she did not know definitively — to use the Taoiseach's word — until 21 May? The Minister should reconsider when replying because that beggars belief and stretches credulity. That type of response will do the Minister and the Government no good with the public which is watching this debate with interest.

We are on this side of the House because the Government, in which I was a Minister of State, fell when the Minister and members of her party demanded the Taoiseach's head and the Government's resignation because there was undue delay in processing an extradition warrant. The then Taoiseach and members of Cabinet did not know about the delay. That was the standard set by the Minister's party and the Labour Party when they demanded the Government's resignation and the Taoiseach's head because there had been a delay.

Where are the Labour Party now?

In this case the document was mislaid or destroyed and the case collapsed. Yet the Minister, who is politically responsible for the Garda Síochána, will not accept any political responsibility for that. She was one of the most vociferous advocates of the doctrine that no matter who knew what, ultimately the political head of the Department must take the rap and that the Minister or Taoiseach of the day is responsible, even if they do not know somebody has made a human error in their Department. Those are the standards the Minister expected of us and others, but obviously she does not accept that they apply equally to her.

The facts of this case are far more serious than those of the case which brought down the previous Government. A commentator on radio this morning suggested to me that I was still smarting from the effects of that. That is not so and I have fully recovered, but I am grateful to him for asking.

He got his answer.

This is more serious because the case collapsed. In the Brendan Smyth case there was an unconscionable delay which should not have occurred. We accepted that, walked the gangplank and paid the ultimate political price. This case collapsed because of an error in the Garda Síochána, for which the Minister is politically responsible. However, I would not demand her resignation because of human error in the Garda head office — to err is human. This party has no interest in seeking the head of the unfortunate Garda sergeant in question. Fianna Fáil is not in the business of looking for heads. That is the prerogative of others and anybody's head will do when some of those on the Government benches are in one of their periodic fits of moral outrage.

To return to the central point, the Minister told the House the Garda Síochána knew all the material facts of this case on 18 April. The Garda sergeant was disciplined.

Why was he moved?

Documentation was lodged in Garda head office and the gardaí were unable to proceed with an extradition application because something happened to it. The garda who had custody of the documents was disciplined on 18 April. Disciplinary action would not have been taken against this individual unless the Garda Síochána had concluded definitively — to use the Taoiseach's word — on 18 April that this was the person who mislaid the warrant.

He was not.

Is the Minister of State, Deputy Currie, saying he was not disciplined? He was transferred. Was he promoted?

There is a strict time limit on the debate. Questions and answers will come later.

The Garda sergeant who had custody of this original warrant was transferred to other duties on 18 April. No possible conclusion can be drawn other than that the Garda Síochána concluded this individual had mislaid the original warrant which caused the collapse of the court case to extradite Mr. Duncan. It knew that definitively on 18 April. The Minister and the Taoiseach expect us to believe that they did not know that until 21 May, four to five weeks later. That is a national scandal and has all the essential ingredients to a cover up.

The Deputy can make all he wants of it.

Unless the Minister can convince us and the public that there was another reason for this individual's transfer on 18 April——

The Deputy should read the Minister's speech.

——we can only come to one possible conclusion. I read the speech, which was obviously prepared yesterday, in the short time available.

We now know the Garda Síochána knew exactly what happened and where responsibility lay on 18 April, yet a public statement made by the Government press secretary on 15 April that the fault lay firmly with the British was not retracted, contradicted, apologised for or withdrawn. On 24 April the Taoiseach told the House that he had no reason to believe the fault lay on the Irish side, despite the fact the Garda Síochána, which is responsible to the Minister for Justice and the Taoiseach, knew at least a week before.

The Minister told us this morning that she did not know definitively until 21 May, yet she had a casual conversation with the Taoiseach last Sunday night. Although this is an important and highly sensitive matter which brought down a previous Government, the Taoiseach told us yesterday that he could not remember when the conversation took place — he could not remember that it took place 48 hours earlier. That beggars belief.

The Government's performance on this matter has been shabby and shameful. It raises more questions than it answers. A Government, which came into office on the promise of openness, transparency and accountability, has performed not only on this matter but on many others during its 16 month tenure in office in contradiction to that. I read the Minister's speech carefully and unless she answers the glaring questions and fills in the omissions, the only conclusion can be that this is a cover up and that she will have to go.

The Minister outlined the procedure that applies when an extradition warrant comes from Britain. It is particularly important to recognise that the arrangements between Britain and Ireland are simply backing of warrants arrangements. That means we must be very careful about the extradition of citizens from Ireland to the UK.

There were difficulties previously in the Office of the Attorney General. As a result of those difficulties, which were related to human error, a major investigation was undertaken into that office, following which it was made clear that every extradition case must be seen by the Attorney General for two reasons: to make sure the documents are in order and that the offence is an extraditable offence. We are now told the original document did not go to the Attorney General, but that it was seen by the lawyer who worked on behalf of the Attorney General. Notwithstanding the difficulties that arose previously, the documentation was not in order. That system needs to be tidied up for the future.

The Minister told us that these events occurred on 12-13 April. She was informed of them immediately, the Attorney General was aware of them and, if the normal practice with extradition was followed, the Taoiseach would also have been aware of them — because of the importance of extradition the Taoiseach is always briefed on extradition orders. Therefore, the Attorney General, the Minister and the Taoiseach knew at that time what was going on, and if they did not, they were at fault.

We were told yesterday that the lawyer concerned said, as reported in The Irish Times of Monday, 15 April, that she had been instructed by the Attorney General, Mr. Dermot Gleeson, that there was a fundamental flaw in the case and not to proceed with it. That proves that the Attorney General knew what was happening. Nobody would believe that he considered it a routine matter and did not pay much attention to it. There was a clear dereliction of duty on the part of the Minister, the Attorney General and the Taoiseach, and that is confirmed by the fact that the sergeant in charge of the section involved was transferred under the direction of the Garda Commissioner on 18-19 April. Is the Minister trying to tell us she was not aware that the sergeant was transferred and the reasons for the transfer? A person cannot be transferred under natural justice unless the reasons are very clear.

Surely in the meantime the Minister met the Garda Commissioner on innumerable occasions, but she is now trying to tell us she was not fully informed of events until very recently. Did the Minister inquire into the matter or seek the information? The only conclusion any reasonable, logical person can come to is that a human error was made, as the Tánaiste said this morning on radio, but the Tánaiste, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Social Welfare knew what was going on while this cover-up was conducted by the Government.

There was no cover-up.

They strained in the House to avoid telling us the truth. That is not accountability. It is a scandal and untenable that the House should be treated in that way. I regret it has been left to the Minister to answer for this. The Taoiseach obviously was informed of matters and he has now skipped out of the House to hide with the Attorney General, the two people in high office who should take responsibility for the conduct of their offices.

This debate is not about human error or the fault of an individual garda — we all make mistakes — it is about accountability, openness and transparency. It is ironic that the Deputy whose persistent questioning brought us to a stage where the truth could finally emerge is not even in the House for the debate.

A year ago tomorrow, 24 May 1995, this House held a similar debate about the delay in bringing to the attention of the Attorney General correspondence from the Father Brendan Smyth victims. We had a long and acrimonious debate on that occasion, the second such debate in a year, and we are now debating a similar matter for the third time. I have to ask, as I am sure the public would rightly ask, if things ever change. Do we ever learn lessons?

When the Minister for Justice was proposing the Taoiseach in the House on 15 December 1994 she said:

He has believed always in the direct accountability of the Dáil to the people. He has held, as fundamental to the running of this country, that individual Ministers and the Government as a whole should be accountable to the Dáil and to the people.

I agree with that statement. The Taoiseach is responsible and accountable to this House for the Attorney General, the officer with direct responsibility for extradition. Like the DPP in criminal prosecutions, he directs the proceedings and the proofs. Yesterday, however, the Taoiseach told us that the subject of these questions is the function and responsibility of the Irish and British police forces and falls within the remit of the Minister for Justice. On 15 November 1994 Deputy John Bruton, Leader of the largest party in Opposition, said:

It is a matter for which the Attorney General has a clear personal responsibility. However, in the case of extradition there is a specific responsibility on the Attorney General to see and examine all warrants...

... The Taoiseach is responsible for the Attorney General in this House. When mistakes are made the Taoiseach must be held accountable. This is another case of evasion of responsibility by shoving the matter into the hands of officials who will now probably be moved and it will be implied that they are truly responsible. That is not acceptable.

It is not acceptable to me either.

The Minister for Justice told us this morning that on 18 April the garda who was apparently responsible in this case was not disciplined but transferred. That means that on 18 April the authorities in this State knew where the responsibility lay for the failure of the extradition case on 13 April.

That is not true.

When the extradition case failed I tabled two parliamentary questions to the Taoiseach who has responsibility in this House for the Attorney General. One was a specific question about the collapse of the case, asking where the blame lay, and the other related to procedures in the Attorney General's office. The Taoiseach transferred my specific question and on the day we came to answer the general question, I asked him about this case. He said he could not answer me because there was a question tabled to the Minister for Justice. I looked at the Order Paper thinking it had been tabled that day but I did not see any question in relation to the matter. I drew the attention of the Taoiseach to this fact and he told me the question was tabled for oral answer and, therefore, he could not answer it.

The question tabled for oral answer was the question the Taoiseach transferred that I had tabled to him. From that day the Taoiseach has been trying to evade responsibility and pass the buck. One of the greatest lessons we can learn from the Taoiseach is how quickly he can pass the buck when it suits. He tried to pass the buck on the occasion of the episode in May 1995 to which I referred.

When the Taoiseach was asked on 24 April whether the fault lay on the British or Irish side he said he had no reason to believe the fault was on the Irish side. In making that comment the Taoiseach was clearly implying the fault lay with the British, yet yesterday he said: "Neither I nor anybody acting on my behalf ever blamed the British authorities or anybody else for the failure". If the Taoiseach told us in the Dáil that he had no reason to believe the fault was on the Irish side, then presumably he knew the fault was on the British side.

In relation to the Attorney General's office.

The Minister for Justice is responsible to this House for the Garda Síochána. She is the person politically accountable to Dáil Éireann for the Garda Síochána. When asked by Deputy O'Donnell on 15 May where the blame lay and whether we received the original warrant, the Minister for Justice, despite long notice, stated: "I do not know the answer because the Garda do not know the answer". If the Garda do not know the answer, why was the garda apparently responsible transferred on 18 April?

Promotion.

Is the Minister for Justice seriously suggesting that a member of the Garda Síochána was transferred, disciplined but yet the Garda did not know the fault lay with him?

The Deputy should read the Minister's speech.

It does not get the Government off the hook. It is carefully drafted but it does not get anybody off the hook.

Deputy Harney, without interruption from either side of the House.

If four parliamentary questions had not been tabled, would the facts of this case have ever emerged?

We were quite happy in this jurisdiction to fuel the view that the British authorities were responsible for this incident. Extradition is an important matter; it is a sensitive and delicate issue and one that can damage Anglo-Irish relations. It is important that we have workable extradition arrangements between Ireland and Britain and between Ireland and other countries so that people wanted in relation to serious crime are brought to justice. It is not a casual matter. I find it extraordinary that yesterday afternoon in this House, when the Taoiseach was asked when he first became aware the fault might lie with the Irish authorities, he said: "The Minister for Justice, in the course of a casual conversation with me at some date that I cannot remember, may have said something to the effect that the problem may be on our side". He went on to say: "I cannot remember exactly when that was said to me. Certainly I cannot say whether it was before or after 15 May." The Minister tells us it was last Sunday night.

She may have hypnotised him.

This case concerned the sensitive and delicate issue of extradition and not just any extradition case. This case had received enormous publicity on both sides of the Irish Sea, yet we are to believe that the Taoiseach could not remember yesterday that the Minister for Justice told him last Sunday night that the fault may lie on the Irish side and that was the first he heard of it. Are we also to believe that when the Taoiseach spoke to the Attorney General after the 13 April debacle, the Attorney General did not offer any view as to the reason the case had collapsed? I find that extraordinary.

We know the reason it collapsed.

I do not intend to impugn anybody's integrity; that is not my job. My job, as Leader of an Opposition party, is to ensure the Government is made accountable to this House. We have found it impossible to get the facts, establish the truth or even have a debate on the matter.

Yesterday morning in this House the Taoiseach stated: "I will agree to changing the procedures and taking questions next Tuesday". This is the man who was the great champion of Oireachtas reform who, on the day he was elected Taoiseach, stated:

We need reform to ensure that when the answers to questions asked in this House are not adequate, the Ceann Comhairle can demand a further answer be given. Only by that change will it be possible to ensure that the Government of the day is truly accountable.

The Taoiseach used every method yesterday to avoid answering questions and, contrary to media reports this morning, the only reason questions were asked yesterday was because the Ceann Comhairle insisted on having private notice questions. It is important that is put on the record of the House. The Taoiseach did not voluntarily decide to answer questions.

It is not acceptable that a Taoiseach who assumed office because his predecessor failed to be accountable to this House and the present Tánaiste believed the so-called definitive Duggan case had not been brought to the attention of this House, should now come before this House and tell us he had a casual conversation with the Minister for Justice and that he does not quite remember when that took place, despite the Minister for Justice having told us it was last Sunday night. I do not believe the Taoiseach's memory is that short. His response is not good enough for this House or the people.

It is not acceptable that the only person who apparently will take the rap for this matter is the unfortunate garda who made a human error. Our sympathy goes out to him. This matter is not about human error; it is about accountability, responsibility, openness and transparency. After persistent questioning we are only now beginning to find out something of what happened. It is wrong that for almost six weeks this State allowed a view to be fuelled that the fault lay on the British side when it knew, certainly from 18 April, that the fault lay with our authorities.

It is extraordinary that the Attorney General who directs this case did not ask if there was an original warrant and that it was Mr. Duncan's lawyer who discovered the error, not the authorities here. After all that has happened with regard to extradition, does the Minister for Justice expect us to believe that is acceptable given the promises made by the Government and the delicate nature of these matters?

May I take it Deputy McDowell is proposing to share time with Deputy Harney?

I believe my Leader may have indicated that.

Apparently not, but I am sure that is satisfactory and agreed.

When this case collapsed on 13 April there must have been some confusion in the District Court as to precisely what had gone wrong but it is equally clear that by Tuesday at the very latest, allowing for an intervening weekend, it must have been manifestly clear that the document delivered by a senior police officer of the Metropolitan Police to the Irish Garda authorities had not been tendered in evidence in court and that a photocopy of that document made in Ireland had been tendered in court instead. The reason that is so is because it was clear from the document, on close examination, that it could not have been the document tendered by the British police. It lacked its obverse side and it did not have the certificates written on it.

The press statement issued by the Garda yesterday furnishes us with sufficient facts to conclude beyond any doubt that the Garda knew by Tuesday of the following week, at the very latest, that the document furnished by the Chief State Solicitor's office, acting on the directions of the Attorney General, as the official warrant in this case was not that warrant and that the document the Garda Commissioner or whoever engaged in the endorsement process impressed was not the original warrant either.

That is a cornerstone of this whole issue and I say to the Minister that by Tuesday of that week an intelligent child could have deduced that a photocopy produced in Ireland had been tendered to the court and that the document handed over by the British police to the Irish police had not been tendered in court. It is for that reason the Garda Commissioner suspended the sergeant in question in that office within a few days of coming to that conclusion. No other explanation stands up to any degree of inspection and no other explanation is credible. By the Tuesday following that week it was abundantly clear that the mistake had been made on the Irish side and by Thursday of that week, in order to investigate that mistake, the sergeant involved was moved aside.

I do not accept that the Attorney General, under whose direction the case was brought and who was responsible for directing the proofs and the way in which the case was conducted, simply made no further inquiries as to the reason he had been involved in an embarrassing débâcle on 13 April. As any loyal and diligent officer of this State would have done, he must have pursued that matter to find out what went wrong. I believe he would have telephoned the Garda Commissioner to know the reason the wrong document had been submitted and would have told him to keep him apprised of developments. The Minister for Justice had a duty to make inquiries of that kind and in her statement she said that she sought an immediate report on what had gone wrong. I do not accept that the Department, in the intervening six weeks, did not receive a progress report or information on what happened. The Minister's statement today is a careful piece of prevarication. At no point does the Minister say she did not have an inkling of where the Garda investigation was going and, until the final dénouement, that her officials were saying it now appears it happened in Ireland. If the Minister's officials did not know that, the only conclusion we are driven to — it is an unfortunate one — is that she is so out of touch with the Garda force for which she is responsible to this House that it can keep her in the dark on matters of huge public importance week after week and drip feed her information to suit its own ends. I reject that suggestion. The Minister and her Department knew well the drift of the Garda investigation and that it was known in her Department that this débâcle in the District Court was caused, in all probability, by an error on the Irish side.

I fully agree with Members who say that this was human error, but I do not agree with the proposition that everybody was on auto pilot, that the Attorney General was not asking what went wrong with this case, was not seeking a convincing explanation for what happened and that he, who is supposed to have a close relationship with the British Attorney General, was not trying to find out where the blame lay. I also do not accept he did not discuss it with the Minister and the Taoiseach and that her Department was completely in the dark on this Garda investigation until it received a definitive account. If that is the way the Minister conducts her Department, she should resign now but I do not believe this to be the case.

Senior members of this Government and the Attorney General were very clear from before 18 April — maybe 16 April — as to what happened in this case in large measure, that the Irish Attorney General, instructing a solicitor from the Chief State Solicitor's Office, furnished to the court a document purporting to be the original warrant endorsed by the Commissioner which was, in fact, a defective photocopy made in Garda Headquarters.

I ask all Deputies to look through the Minister's statement to see if there is one point where she says that she first began to understand what had happened in this case in April, May etc., when she got a preliminary indication of where the Garda investigation was going and that her departmental officials understood, by the beginning of May, for example, that an investigation was being carried out in the Garda; that some gardaí had been removed from duty and that it appeared the error had occurred in Ireland. That material is not in the Minister's statement. The reason is that the Minister's statement is designed to confuse rather than enlighten.

All this was debated, not in the British House of Commons but in the House of Lords, on 2 May. It is amazing it could have a debate on this subject but that we had to wait until recently to find out what happened. It is strange and sad that the English peers of the realm turned on their Government and accused it of getting it wrong yet again. It is strange they were allowed to do that at a time when the Irish State, Attorney General, Minister for Justice and Taoiseach knew the error lay on this side of the Irish Sea.

And the Commissioner.

Even if they were waiting for a definitive account — God knows one could be waiting a long time — they knew the truth of this matter long before they allowed calls for the resignation of senior officials in the other jurisdiction.

I do not accept the account given by the Minister. It is a carefully tailored effort to camouflage the fact that what happened on Tuesday, 16 April 1996 was known in substance and that action was taken on it by the Commissioner the following Thursday. This House was deliberately kept in the dark by a drip feed diet of prevarication, camouflage and smokescreen to keep the Opposition from finding out the truth; that the Government press secretary had blamed the British in the wrong and that this Government was seeking to cover its embarrassment.

The Taoiseach should be fired.

The Minister for Justice will now take questions for a period not exceeding one hour. I remind Members that the usual rules governing supplementary questions at Question Time apply to today's question and answer session.

Did the Garda keep the Minister aware of the progress of the investigation into how this warrant went missing?

The Garda gave me a report on the progress of the investigation for reply to the question on 15 May and that report indicated it had not yet concluded its investigation. I received the final report on the investigation on 21 May, which was the first appropriate opportunity for me to indicate the findings of that investigation.

At any stage prior to that first report from the Garda did the Minister or her Department have any inkling of the direction or progress of its investigation? Did that report, which was given to the Minister prior to 15 May, indicate the drift of the Garda investigation? Will she put that report in the Oireachtas Library so we can all judge for ourselves whether her answers on 15 May come up to the standard of ministerial accountability and truthfulness which we and she expects from all Members of this House?

I had no inkling of the drift of the Garda investigation before or on 15 May. I became aware of it only when I received the final report on 21 May.

What sort of Department is the Minister running?

Answer the question.

There is no dispute about the fact that this case collapsed because the document presented in court was not an original. This became evident in court.

The Taoiseach disputed it yesterday.

What required an investigation was how it came to be that this document was not an original. That was the nature of the inquiry being carried out by the Garda. The Garda's report says that "The whole issue has been investigated by a senior officer from outside the branch and until it could be unequivocally established what in fact happened, it would have been unwise to reach any conclusions." These are the Garda's words, not mine.

Will the Minister put that report in the Oireachtas Library?

Garda reports are only for the Department of Justice. I quoted straight from that report.

There are matters of national security in this report.

There are many Deputies offering. We should hear what the Minister has to say when the question is put.

When the Minister first informed the Taoiseach about these events did she tell him about what happened in court on 13 April and when did she do so? When did the Minister inform the Taoiseach about the transfer of the sergeant? Did she say it took place on 18-19 April? If so, when did she first inform the Taoiseach of that transfer? If it was before 24 April why did the Taoiseach say there was no hint of suspicion on our side? Will the Minister make it clear when she informed the Taoiseach of these matters?

The information about the collapse of the case was, I understand, conveyed to the Taoiseach by the Attorney General's office but it was obvious on the Saturday, the day the court case collapsed. I did not inform the Taoiseach of the transfer of the sergeant because I only got that information myself yesterday and I only got the full clarification of the transfer this morning from Garda Headquarters. Lest there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to what the circumstances of that transfer were——

Does the Minister accept that?

——I wish to say that the Garda Commissioner informed me that the sergeant was in charge of the unit which deals with extradition matters. He was the officer who had custody of the warrant in this case. The Commissioner informed me that he felt it would have been inappropriate for this sergeant to have responsibility for the handling of extradition papers until the circumstances of the present case had been fully cleared up. I want to knock on the head——

Does the Minister believe that?

I believe what the Garda Commissioner tells me. I have no reason to doubt the Garda Commissioner and if the Deputy has any reason to doubt him I suggest the Deputy take that case somewhere else because he will not get an answer from me here. The Garda Commissioner said he felt it would be inappropriate for the sergeant to have responsibility for the handling of extradition papers until the circumstances of the present case had been cleared up. That means that on 18 April they did not know the full circumstances despite what Deputies say.

A Deputy

Was it disciplinary?

It was not disciplinary — I did not use the word "disciplinary"— he was transferred until the handling of the whole issue was fully cleared up.

The Minister said she did not know definitively until Tuesday night but she told the Taoiseach on Sunday night that the problem may be on our side. What let the Minister on Sunday night to tell the Taoiseach that the problem may be on our side? How did she come to that conclusion on Sunday night?

I do not know if the Deputy was in the House — Deputy McDowell certainly was — on Wednesday, 15 May. Anybody who reads my statement and my responses to Deputy O'Donnell on that day will realise I was open and frank, despite huge pressure from Deputy O'Donnell and the hurler on the ditch who was sitting in his seat feeding Deputy O'Donnell comments, in expressing my frustration that the report had not been finalised. I indicated to the Deputy that as soon as it was finalised I would let her have that information which is precisely what I did. I did not equivocate, perhaps the Deputies wanted me to say something different.

Answer the question.

I said it as it was: "I do not know the answer to the question the Deputy is asking". If Deputies do not like the truth, I am sorry. Following the Wednesday on which I answered questions, I began to wonder about the reason for the delay and in the course of a conversation about a number of other issues I said to the Taoiseach on Sunday evening that I was beginning to wonder if the problem was on the Irish side. That was all.

(Interruptions.)

A number of Deputies from both Opposition parties are endeavouring to get into this debate. We have a strict time limit and the Minister should be allowed to answer without interruption from either side of the House.

It is clear from the debate yesterday, a video of which I watched, and the report of which I read, that an effort was being made to imply that the Taoiseach had information before 24 April about this case and who might be responsible. I say categorically that the Taoiseach did not have that information. It was only last Sunday in a casual comment to him I said I was beginning to wonder where the fault lay. I do not have the luxury, as the Opposition have, of making speculative statements to the public. I would not be doing the job of Minister for Justice honour if I were to speculate publicly and attribute blame until I had the facts. A reasonable reading of the facts will show that I came into the Dáil on 15 May and had to say openly I did not know the information and that I would make it available as soon as possible. I did that and I also issued a public statement on the issue so nobody could accuse me of hoping that the question might get lost or anything else. I issued a public statement to the media.

The Minister knew the game was up.

There was no question of that. Deputies must realise there was obviously a fault which brought down this case. It was appropriate and proper that the investigation would find out where the mistake was made in order that steps could be taken to ensure it did not happen again. If Deputies did not want that to happen and they wanted me to come in here within 24 or 48 hours——

Answer Deputy Harney's question.

I was forming my own view before I got the report.

The Minister's gut feeling?

What about Sunday night?

If there was no inkling until 21 May of the Garda involvement and that the human error had taken place there why — this is Deputy Harney's question which the Minister did not respond to — on 19 May did the Minister make the comment to the Taoiseach in a casual conversation — he told us yesterday he could not remember the exact date of that conversation? Why, on 24 April, in response to questions from myself, Deputies Ahern and Harney did the Taoiseach say: "I have no reason to believe there was any error or omission on the Irish side on this matter that contributed to any of the difficulties but the matter will be fully addressed"?

I wish to refer to the incidents in the court on the Saturday while the proceedings were taking place and the case was adjourned from 10.55 a.m. to lunchtime. When the court resumed at 1.45 p.m. the lawyer representing the State, Miss Claire Loftus, apologised for the delay and told Judge Crowley she now had new instructions from the Attorney General. She said: "I am instructed that it is now clear that there is a fundamental flaw in the proceedings before the court and in the documentation that has been produced. In those circumstances I am not in a position to make any application and we cannot proceed further". Does the Minister accept that Ms Loftus made that statement in the court at that time and that it was the State's position?

Before I call the Minister I wish to clarify a matter. While I indicated that the rules of Question Time would apply to this debate, the no quotation rule cannot be applied to this session as quotations have been made during the statements which preceded this session.

On 24 April the Taoiseach answered questions about the role of the Attorney General. He said in those statements there was no fault on this side, meaning the Attorney General's side, and he went on to say — everybody is leaving this out — that a full investigation was going on. He was answering questions about the role of the Attorney General, which is his responsibility. It was absolutely proper and correct for the Taoiseach to put the responsibility for answering questions on the Garda's role in this on to the Minister for Justice. I am taking that responsibility as I did when I answered a question on 15 May and 24 April.

How does the Minister know the Garda had a role?

Because that is the procedure.

The Minister, without interruption from either side.

With regard to the statement by Ms Loftus in the court — Deputy Burke would know this as a former Minister for Justice — the Taoiseach made it clear in the Dáil yesterday that he did not have the exact words of Ms Loftus' statement but certainly she said it was clear there was a flaw in the documentation. The flaw that was shown up was that the document was not an original. There is no mystery about that.

Why then did it take so long?

It is not the business of the Attorney General or anybody else, it is the business of the Garda Síochána to endorse the warrant and present it in court.

The Minister did not answer the first question.

I got answers to two questions, the Minister dumped the first question.

The Chair does not have any control over answers.

Following questioning in the Dáil on 15 May the Minister began to wonder if there was something wrong on the Irish side. She stated that her Department received a response from the Garda on 9 May about which her Department raised queries with the Garda. What information did the response of 9 May from the Garda Síochána contain? Will she publish that document? It is now obvious that the document was a photocopy of one side of a two-sided warrant. The Attorney General would have received photocopies of the documents produced in court. As the highest legal person in the land, surely he would have noted that he had received only one side of a warrant, something with which he is very familiar. Why is he not in some way responsible? The Minister saw those documents later that night and she is also quite familiar with warrants. Is she not in some way responsible? Yet she said that the poor unfortunate garda, the paper shoveller in all of this, is answerable.

The Minister cannot be responsible.

That is some comment from a backbencher.

Deputy Ahern asked about the response received in my Department on 9 May following which a number of queries were raised. That response from the Garda was to the effect that it had not been able to establish whether the original document had come to Garda headquarters. My Department officials contacted the Garda to know when it would be able to give an answer. I did not see that report until the day I was preparing replies to parliamentary questions. When preparing such replies the normal procedure is to examine all the necessary paperwork. Even at that stage I, too, asked — as I told Deputy O'Donnell — the same questions. When Deputy O'Donnell asked reasonable questions on 15 May to the effect that it was amazing I had not received a reply after such a long time and so on, I told her I did not have a reply and that I would not make up one. I had asked the Garda to furnish me with a final report within a matter of days, which it did. I sent a memo to that effect.

Will the Minister publish the report?

It has never been the practice for a Minister for Justice to publish Garda reports. I put on the record of the House the Garda's report, as I did on 21 May in answer to Deputy O'Donnell.

(Interruptions.)

The Garda clarified the exact circumstances of the case and the results of its investigation. A human error occurred, there was no cover up. I came into the House and said I did not yet have the answers, that the Opposition could castigate me for not having the information, but I did not have the report.

Who is running the ship?

The Minister is not taking charge.

It would be highly irresponsible for a Minister for Justice to come in here and, for the sake of having an easy run, say he or she knew or did not know what was going on. I am required to be sure and accurate in all the information I give.

The Minister was economical with the truth and so was the Taoiseach yesterday.

I was not economical with the truth.

She used the word "definitive" yesterday and was economical with the truth.

I call Deputy Michael McDowell, following which I will call Deputies Cowen and Dukes.

I look forward to the question from Deputy Dukes.

The Deputy should not hold his breath because it will not be nice for him.

The Member in possession, please.

The Minister did not repond to my second question.

The Chair does not have control over Ministers' replies.

What is the point of having a Parliament?

Is the Minister telling the House that she did not discuss this matter with the Attorney General at any time after the débâcle, that he did not communicate with her Department seeking an explanation as to why a case which he was conducting, the proofs of which he was directing and the conduct for which he was responsible, had collapsed? Is she saying that he never sought any explanation and was not given one and that she did not speak to him or the Taoiseach prior to last Sunday about the issue? Is that what the Minister wants the House to believe?

Yes. As far as I can recall on the Monday after the case collapsed I spoke to the Attorney General but he, no more than I, was not in a position to explain why a non-original document came before the court. That is the whole point of the inquiry.

What about since then?

I spoke to the Attorney General about many issues but I did not speak to him about this because it was not his business. It was the business of the Garda to supply a report on why a sergeant presented a non-original document to the court. It is no more or less than that.

Deputy Ahern asked about the documentation I received after midnight on 12 April. I got the photocopy of the full document that night.

It was a one page document.

It was not a one page document. I got the full copy of the document.

Did the Minister note that the certificates were missing?

There was nothing missing.

Is the Minister sure?

This stinks to high heaven.

I wish to ask a few questions about the Minister's speech which might help fill in some details.

Has the Deputy read her speech?

The Minister has just admitted that the certificates were on the warrant she received.

That does not prove anything.

Deputies are eroding their time and the Deputy may not speak from a seated position.

The Minister indicated that she sought a report from the Garda as a result of parliamentary questions tabled in the House. She stated that she received a report on the circumstances of the case on 9 May. She went on to state that she did not examine that report until 15 May when she was preparing to answer questions in the House. On an issue as sensitive as extradition, is the Minister telling the House that she would not have sought a report if parliamentary questions on the failure of the extradition application had not been tabled? Is she also telling the House that, on an issue as sensitive as this, a report which came to her Department on 9 May was not read by her until the morning of 15 May when she was going to answer questions in the House? The Minister sought further details on the interim report on 9 May. What further questions did she ask the Garda at that stage? She stated that a number of queries were raised by her Department. She also stated that despite replies to those queries, the issue still remained unclear. Will she explain the circumstances in regard to those matters?

Why is the Minister refusing to place in the Library the reports she received from the Garda? She stated that they are for her eyes only. Is she suggesting that the way a document is shredded in Garda headquarters is an issue of national security? Why will she not provide us with the reports so that the public and their representatives can gauge the quality of the replies she received? Is she suggesting that she can excuse herself from political responsibility because she went out of her way not to know everything and that she was simply awaiting reports on a drip feed basis from the Garda?

Promote that man.

I made it quite clear that, through the Secretary of my Department, I requested the Garda Commissioner to prepare a report for me on the circumstances that brought down this extradition case in the courts. I did not await the tabling of a parliamentary question to do that. The parliamentary question transferred to me was due to be answered on 15 May, as a result of which a request for a report was made to the Garda. As anybody who has served in the Department of Justice will know, whenever a question is submitted it is circulated to the relevant agencies which must supply answers. Answers were sought and the relevant replies were received in my Department on 9 May. My departmental officials decided to ask some further questions — the full nature of which I cannot give the House. I confirm that they asked why the matter had not been finalised. They were informed that those from whom they had made inquiries were not in a position to finalise their inquiries, as was made clear by the Garda statement, because they still awaited further information here and from across the water.

What was the nature of that information?

That information related to the location of the original warrant, to establish whether it had come from the United Kingdom authorities — all the normal questions that would be asked.

The Minister is here to answer the query.

I did not carry out the inquiry: that was conducted by the Garda. I am not here to answer for detailed actions of the Garda in carrying out that inquiry. I am here to ensure that an inquiry was undertaken but I cannot make up the facts.

The fact that the Minister requested an inquiry was not sufficient.

(Interruptions.)

I am not the inquiring agency.

The Minister is supposed to be responsible to this House.

The Garda, the responsible agency in this matter, undertook this inquiry and provided me with a report. Perhaps some Members on the opposite side of the House are used to changing reports received from the Garda, I am not.

We just want to see it; will the Minister make it available?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that statement should be withdrawn.

I take such reports as I get them.

Let us hear the Minister's reply.

With regard to the publication of any Garda report, as the House will know, such reports are supplied to me. I extracted from that report the information relevant to this issue. That report contained other information relating to a court case which is continuing——

We do not want to know that. We want to know how it got into the shredder, that is all.

——which information I do not want circulated in the public arena because Members will know that, as Minister, I have responsibility not to jeopardise a court case or deny anybody a fair trial.

Can the Minister confirm to the House that the deployment of members of the Garda Síochána, certainly those below the rank of chief superintendent, on given duties and their transfer are matters entirely for Garda management, unlike in the days when members of Fianna Fáil thought they could decide where gardaí and sergeants should be allocated?

This is the second example in one year.

Deputy Dukes signed that order in December 1987.

(Interruptions.)

The Member in possession, please.

Can the Minister confirm that the allocation of Garda duties is entirely a matter for Garda management? On the conduct of the inquiry, the assessment of the evidence and the drawing of conclusions, will the Minister agree that people like our colleagues in the Progressive Democrats — who do not have to go through a process of thinking to arrive at conclusions but whose ideas come in one blinding burst of golden light, perfectly formed, perfectly articulated, with a beginning, a middle and an end — are to be entirely envied and that they are wasting their time in here when they could make fortunes for themselves in the courts?

Promote that man, bring him back.

I was very remiss when I began answering questions not to have wished my Opposition spokesperson, Deputy John O'Donoghue a speedy recovery. I hope he is not too ill and will be back soon.

To answer Deputy Dukes, I can confirm categorically that the allocation of duties and the deployment and transfer of gardaí are entirely matters for the Garda Commissioner. Furthermore, I can verify that in answering the many letters I received from all Members of the House I said the matter of promotions, transfers and other matters are for the Garda, that I have no role to play in them nor do I want to have.

Will the Minister come back to the issue in question?

In regard to Deputy Dukes's question about assessment, drawing conclusions and so on, I have made it clear that whatever luxury Members of the Opposition might have to indulge in speculating, casting aspersions, castigating and so on, as Minister for Justice, I cannot indulge in such luxury or speculate until I have the facts at my disposal.

Publish the report.

That is why I must at times take responsibility in this House to ensure I do not give an answer without being sure of the facts.

If the Minister does not know the facts, she is in the clear.

The Minister will read the convention about the warrants but she will not read about——

Deputy Molloy has been offering for some time. Is he deferring to his party leader?

In reply to Deputy Dukes's comments, before putting my questions——

I am not asking Deputy Molloy for a reply; he is in the happy position that he does not have to think.

The House is well aware of the enlightened disenchantment of Deputy Dukes with his party's role in this Government. He should concentrate his efforts on endeavouring to sort that out with his party rather than in endeavouring to disrupt a serious debate here.

(Interruptions.)

The Member in possession, please.

Was Sunday last the first time the Minister began to come to the conclusion that the fault might lie with the Irish side when she spoke to the Taoiseach? Is she aware the British authorities were not in any doubt that the fault lay here, that the Lord Chancellor informed the House of Lords on 2 May to that effect? Where was the Minister when all of this was going on?

As a former Minister, Deputy Molloy knows I must deal in facts. I was not in a position on 15 May, or until 21 May, to state categorically what had happened in this case. I will not share my private thoughts in public.

Please do not.

That would be a terrifying prospect.

Until I am sure of the facts I will not make them public.

The Minister might give us advance notice.

I commented to the Taoiseach, as I have already explained, based on my perception of the debate and that the report had not yet been received, that I was beginning to wonder about it, but I was merely wondering and expressed those thoughts to the Taoiseach. He was not in any position to go public because they were merely my thoughts.

(Interruptions.)

I see many Members offering. I have been trying to be fair by alternating around the House but I must also have regard to the ratio of representation. I will call Deputies Tom Kitt, Cullen, Harney, Noel Treacy, McDaid and Michael McDowell.

You included me a long time ago, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and then lost me.

I will endeavour to include the Deputy.

The Minister said in the course of her statement that the Garda Commissioner informed her only yesterday that the sergeant who had custody of the warrant in this case had been transferred to other duties. This being such a politically sensitive matter did the Minister protest strongly or express anger that she was only told about it yesterday?

It is the responsibility of the Garda Commissioner to do what he wishes with any member of his force. It is not my job to tell him what do do.

So the Minister is happy with the way it was done?

Deputy Kitt is advocating that I interfere with the Garda Commissioner's handling of his staff. He informed me of it yesterday, in the course of my conversation with him. That was the first I heard of it and I received the relevant details this morning. As I have already said, the sergeant concerned was moved from that position until the circumstances surrounding the present case had been fully clarified.

Monastic silence; whenever there is trouble, stay quiet.

Does the Minister agree, since the original warrant was received and stamped by the Garda Commissioner, that when the case collapsed it could easily have been confirmed within 24 hours that the original warrant had been received and stamped? Why did the Government put out a line that the fault lay with the British authorities? Why did the Taoiseach come in here and say there was no fault on our side? Within 24 hours the Taoiseach should have been in a position at least to confirm that the original warrant had been received in this jurisdiction.

I want to put a second question to the Minister. Is she seriously telling the House that on his original inquiries the Attorney General had no suspicions when it is clear to the House that he would also have been aware on confirmation from the Garda Commissioner that the original warrant had been received? It would have been clear to him that there might have been an investigation as to what happened to it but it could have been established within 24 hours that the warrant had been received in this jurisdiction.

It is easy to establish that the document presented in court was not an original, that does not require any great knowledge or reports. The fact is that the document presented in court was not an original. I deny the suggestion that the Government put out any line. As the Taoiseach said yesterday, the only formal statement made was in answer to a question from the media. He said that the Government's spokesperson on duty that weekend was contacted by members of the media and asked if the Government would comment on the outcome. He advised them that, in accordance with the normal practice, the Government would not make any statement on the case. Subsequently he was again contacted by media representatives who told him that British sources were suggesting that responsibility for the failure of the extradition application lay with the Attorney General's office in Dublin. He contacted the Attorney General who briefed him on the role of the Attorney General's office in processing extradition warrants. The press spokesperson then conveyed that information to the media strongly denying any suggestion of a failure on the part of the Attorney General's office in Dublin.

The Minister is disingenuous.

The only information I have of allegations about where the blame might lie is from The Irish Times report to which the Taoiseach referred yesterday. It stated that the solicitor for Mr. Duncan stood up in court and said there was a fault——

And Ms Loftus.

Ms Loftus did not say that.

She said the British produced the documents.

She was talking about the documents presented in court.

And the documents produced.

The District judge then went on to comment——

At no stage did she disabuse the court of that fact.

The opportunity for other Deputies to speak is eroding.

I accept that the Minister did not know until Tuesday evening that the shredder caused the problem and that the document went missing when it was being photocopied. When the Minister or her officials first got in touch with the Garda after 13 April did they say that the fault was not on our side but on the British side or did the Minister and the Attorney General know that an original warrant had been sent to Ireland?

That is the whole point of this debate and these questions. I was awaiting the report on the outcome of that until 21 May.

That does not wash.

The Deputy can say that is nonsense, but they are the facts.

If that is the case then the Minister was negligent.

That is a contradiction.

There is little point in putting a question if we do not hear the reply.

The date 21 May is on the top of the report.

Were the Garda telling the Minister——

I do not know what the Garda were saying.

Did the Minister and the Attorney General believe that the fault lay with the British?

I did not have any discussion about where the fault lay. I will wait for the report to tell me the facts.

That will save the Minister.

The facts are that I do not work on media speculation or anything else.

Did the Minister believe the fault lay with the British?

I did not make any comment one way or the other. I refused to make any comments.

The Minister took no initiative except to ask for a report.

That is precisely how the Minister for Justice carries out her work, by requesting such a report.

On what basis did the Taoiseach advise this House on 24 April?

Did the Minister initiate any request for a report on this débâcle immediately after it occurred? Who instructed the Government press secretary at a crucial time in Anglo-Irish relations to blame the British authorities for this débâcle? Will she recommend to Cabinet that the person concerned be transferred?

I said twice, if not three times, that I did instruct that a report be prepared through the process of the Department secretary.

Will the Minister put a timescale on that?

Immediately on the day the case collapsed.

That is in the script.

It is what is not in the script that we are concerned about.

The Deputy only reads what he wants to read.

An official telephoned to tell me the case had collapsed and I said that I wanted a full report on the circumstances of what went wrong. That is what I did and what I waited for. The Deputies can express their frustration, as I did openly, that it took until 21 May to reach me.

On the matter of who ordered the Government press secretary to give a briefing, nobody ordered him because there was no evidence that anybody gave a briefing to the media. I am not aware of it and I did not give the media any briefing.

The media had the story that the Minister was blaming the British authorities.

The Deputy is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The Taoiseach made clear yesterday the basis on which a question was answered by the spokesperson that weekend.

The Minister is like Pontius Pilate washing her hands of responsibility.

The Minister stated that the facts are there for all to see, that the documents in court were not originals. We know that a Garda sergeant has been moved aside. What action does the Minister intend to take against the Chief State Solicitor's office or the Attorney General's office which were prepared to extradite an Irish citizen on foot of a warrant which they knew not to be in order?

As I have said repeatedly responsibility for producing the endorsed warrant in court lies with the Garda Síochána. The fault was not on the side of the Attorney General's office or the Chief State Solicitor's office.

He approved all the documents.

He approved copies of the document which were all correct. That is the procedure and it was followed. The exchange of the originals takes place between one police force and another. I have given the Deputies all that information and I do not know why I must keep repeating it.

The Chief State Solicitor went into court with flawed documents and that is the reason the case fell.

The Deputy's party was in the Government that prepared this legislation setting out these procedures.

There is nothing wrong with the legislation.

I want the Minister to be very careful and clear when listening to me and replying to what I will ask her.

Will the Deputy lecture us again?

(Interruptions.)

Will the Deputy stop shouting and listen? He knows nothing.

Yesterday the Taoiseach told us that only the front page of the warrant had been tendered in court and photocopied and that the back page of that warrant had not been photocopied. He said as a result certain certificates were missing from it. I asked the Minister a while ago whether those certificates were present in the documentation furnished to her and the Attorney General and, if they were, given that she replied a moment ago that they were, does that not show that the fault must have occurred in Ireland. If they were not does the fault not lie with the Minister's Department and the Attorney General's office for not spotting that the certificates omitted were missing?

That is an extraordinary compilation.

The documentation I signed after midnight on 12 April was complete.

That proves it.

It does not prove it. There was a possibility that the inquiry might reveal that the document that came from England was not correct. The Garda had authority to find that out. I had a copy of the document.

The Minister had the complete documents. How could she have a copy of complete documents?

Let us hear the reply.

I had a copy of the complete documents which contained all the parts.

The Deputies opposite should listen and they might learn.

We have been listening for the past two hours.

The sequence of events was that the sergeant preparing the documentation for court made copies and, as the report states, he inadvertently destroyed the original.

The Minister is missing the point. Incomplete documentation was tendered in court.

That has come out of the inquiry, but at that stage——

It proves the Minister had a complete set of papers and the fault happened in Ireland. Any fool can see that.

It does not prove anything.

The question was put, let us hear the reply.

The Deputy should not look so smug as if he has suddenly found out something.

The Minister knew they were photocopies of documents.

Deputy Ahern, please desist.

It does not prove a single solitary thing because the Garda were investigating how the original, if it had come to Ireland, did not end up in the court or whether the original had ever come to Ireland. All those matters were being investigated.

From where did the photocopy come?

My photocopy came, but it could have been a copy of a copy. That is the whole point of the inquiry.

In relation to the procedures, I understand an original letter comes from the British Attorney General to the Attorney General here. That is transmitted to the Garda Síochána.

I am talking about a letter of notification, not the warrant.

Social welfare is the Deputy's speciality. He is very good at that.

The Attorney General is informed at the outset, and the original warrant goes to the Commissioner. However, the State's counsel is instructed by the Attorney General and must confirm, under the procedures and rules, that the original stamped copy is there. The responsibility to do that lies with the Attorney General in the first instance, and it is a legal responsibility. The Minister may say that the Taoiseach is one step removed in that he has to be briefed, but the Attorney General, as the chief law officer, is directly responsible. Did the Attorney General know or inquire about the original document once the fundamental flaw was found on 12-13 April? The Attorney General is legally responsible, so he must have known. Did the Attorney General tell the Taoiseach or the Minister of the flaw and the nature of it? He was legally responsible and, being the law officer for the Government working to the Taoiseach, would have to tell the Taoiseach.

Is this a question or a statement?

If he did, how could the Taoiseach say on 24 April that there was no hint of suspicion here? Finally, could the Minister say where is the Taoiseach now? Has he gone into hiding in a bunker?

He has other responsibilities that are more important to the national interest than this.

(Interruptions.)

More important than this?

We see where the Opposition's priorities lie. They are more interested in party politics than in the peace process.

I can understand why the Opposition parties may be trying to finger the Attorney General.

He is responsible.

I want to make it clear that there was no fault on the part of the Attorney General. The Garda statement has made it quite clear where the fault lay. It was a human error and it really is unfortunate that the Opposition parties are labouring so long on the back of a human error by an individual garda who unwittingly shredded a document.

In reply to Deputy Woods — I thought I had made this clear, but maybe I need to do it again——

Do not blame it on a poor garda, another civil servant.

——warrants are transmitted directly from the requesting police force to the Garda authorities who are responsible for endorsing the warrants for execution in this State in accordance with the provisions of the 1965 Act.

That is what I said.

The Attorney General and the Minister for Justice only get copies of the warrants. The original goes to and remains with the Garda authorities.

Until it goes to the court.

The responsibility remains with the Garda Síochána and, in fairness, they have accepted full responsibility.

It is the Attorney General who is responsible.

The Attorney General is not responsible for the original.

If a lawyer goes to court with a document the lawyer is responsible and, in this case, the lawyer is the Attorney General.

He confirms that the material in the warrants and the supporting documents——

The Minister is trying to hang the Garda Síochána out to dry.

I am not trying to hang the Garda Síochána. That is utter nonsense.

The Attorney General is legally responsible.

The Minister misled everybody. That is the bottom line.

Perhaps Deputy Woods might read that section of my speech so that he will know the system and not ask questions like this.

It is only a short time since the Deputy was over here, but he is over there now and he is confused again.

Let me say on behalf of our party that I entirely reject the statement by the Minister of State, Deputy Austin Currie, that this is not an important matter.

Hear, hear.

There is no more important matter than the civil and personal liberty of any one person. It now emerges that everybody knew on or after 13 April that the fault lay on this side of the water.

That is a wild statement.

Having established that, there then emerged two other issues — why the Minister did not proceed to make it clear to everybody here and across the water that the fault lay here and why she did not proceed to establish how the fault arose. I put it to the Minister that she behaved in a casual and dilatory manner in not making public the fact that the fault lay here and then, in a proper fashion, proceeding to have an investigation as to how that happened.

Everybody did not know where the fault lay on 13 April or thereabouts. It was not until 21 May when I received the final report of the Garda Síochána that I got the full facts relating to the investigation.

(Interruptions.)

The Opposition may not like that but these are the facts. Deputies may speculate as to why the investigation took four or five weeks.

(Interruptions.)

Do I have to repeat it again?

It is terribly boring for the Minister.

The Commissioner informed me that he felt it would be inappropriate for this sergeant to have responsibility for the handling of extradition papers——

——until the circumstances of the present case had been fully cleared up.

That is how it happened but not why it happened.

We all know it happened.

It happened, and then there was an investigation as to how it happened.

If Deputy O'Rourke could just bear with me, we all know that a non-original document ended up in court. There is no dispute about that. Neither I nor anybody else tried to hide that. It is as clear as the light of day that the document endorsed by the Garda Síochána was not an original.

It was fundamentally flawed.

Just knowing that did not tell me or anybody else how that came about, and that was the nature of the inquiry. Deputies cannot keep on saying in this House that it was clear to everybody on 13 April or afterwards.

It should have been.

The only thing that was clear was that the document in court was not an original, no more and no less. The inquiry has shown what happened.

(Interruptions.)

I am surprised that people in the legal profession would want me as Minister for Justice to come in here, even under the privilege of the House, and cast aspersions or suspicion on anybody.

We are asking the Minister to tell the truth.

I have told the truth in every bit of this case.

She is being economical with it.

The Opposition does not like the truth. It would like it to be something different, to find fault where there is none. I have told the truth all along and I condemn anyone who says otherwise.

We have heard less than half the story today. We need to question the Taoiseach because that is where the other part of the story lies. I want to put it to the Taoiseach that the Attorney General is responsible for proceeding with extradition cases in court. In this case it appears that the Attorney General allowed flawed documentation into court; the flaw was only discovered in court. In those circumstances, why is the Attorney General not responsible?

The Taoiseach answered extensively questions about the Attorney General. I am not responsible for answering questions about the Attorney General. The original document comes to the Garda Síochána, is endorsed and brought to the courts by the gardaí, not by the Attorney General. The Attorney General gets a copy as Deputy O'Dea knows having served as a Minister of State in the Department of Justice.

What was Deputy O'Dea doing when he was over here?

In answering a previous question the Minister indicated that on 13 April she received a full photocopied set of documents which it was hoped to produce in court later on. Presumably the Attorney General got a similar full photocopied set of documents.

The original was with the Garda Síochána.

However an incomplete set of photocopied documents was produced in court. It must have been quite obvious to people involved in this case immediately after the court case that the fault lay on the Irish side.

It must have.

I put it to the Minister that the people in her Department and all the people in the Office of the Attorney General knew right well——

It does not follow at all.

——that it could only have been on this side of the Irish Sea the fault lay.

Absolute nonsense.

What happened until 21 May was that the Minister looked for a fall guy, namely the garda who was responsible.

That is unworthy of a Member of this House.

I am sorry that Deputy Dermot Ahern, a lawyer, came to an unsubstantiated conclusion.

Deputies

What other explanation is there?

Tell us a few alternative theories?

Clearly the Garda Síochána investigated the matter because it felt it required further investigation and it completed its report as to what happened.

As to how it happened?

I will not enter into speculation, but, although it is not the case in this instance, there was a possibility that the documents that came from the UK were copies and that everything after that were also copies.

Could it have been an original copy?

Yes, of course, but it could have been a photocopy. They were the issues. The sergeant involved had every right to be questioned and to explain the situation. The Attorney General verified the material in a copy of the documents and the Garda Síochána maintained the original. It was not clear whether the original had actually come to the gardaí——

That is a tall story.

——until that investigation was completed by a chief superintendent.

The Opposition will have to look for another issue.

Say that to the chief superintendent and the Garda Commissioner. I believe what the Garda Commissioner told me and if the Deputy says otherwise I ask him to say that outside the House where he will call the Commissioner a liar effectively——

Do not divert attention.

They are the Minister's words.

——because he is saying he does not believe what the Commissioner is saying. Deputy Ahern said that is a tall story. The report I am giving to the House comes directly from the Garda Commissioner. Deputy Ahern is accusing the Commissioner of telling a tall story.

I stand by everything I said.

I suggest the Deputy take himself up to Garda headquarters and make that accusation face to face.

The Minister is not forthcoming with the truth.

Do not try to find a fall guy.

It was human error and the Opposition cannot face up to it.

Will the Minister confirm that a warrant is not endorsed when it comes from the UK but that it is endorsed in this country? The Minister has told the House that she had a complete copy of the document. Does that tell her the original was in Ireland at that stage? How else could she have had a complete copy with the endorsement showing on it? Second, it could not have been a copy that originated in England because the endorsement of the Garda Commissioner's signature would not be on it. That is the simple point that is being put. Based on everything that has happened does the Minister for Justice believe the length of time it has taken to get these reports is acceptable and that she has discharged her duty of care as a Minister on the basis of doing nothing further than seeking a report from the Garda and awaiting the outcome while making no interim inquiries to update herself on the situation given that it was a matter of importance in the public domain and a matter of political controversy?

The copy of the warrant I examined contained all the necessary pages, the copy that went to the court did not because the garda in question picked up the wrong copy or a document that he assumed to be correct. That does not mean automatically that the copy I got was made from an original. The Garda investigated the matter and made a definitive statement that the garda in question had made a mistake, a human error.

I cannot change the facts.

It showed that the original was in Ireland.

It did not.

Who made the Minister's copy?

Did the Commissioner go over to London to endorse the document?

I received a faxed copy from the Garda Síochána.

Did the Minister discharge her duty of care?

I discharged my duty of care by asking for a report immediately and by waiting in a responsible manner for the full report so that a person would not be maligned or accused wrongly. I am sorry the Opposition will not accept that a mistake was made. There was no fault on my side.

We cannot accept the Minister's incompetence.

We had to put up with the Deputy's incompetence for a long time.

I will put my record against the Minister of State's at any time.

The Minister knew right well where the fault lay — and she left the British officers to be hung out to dry too.

That concludes statements on the extradition warrant.

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