Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1996

Vol. 470 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 8, a motion concerning the referral of the Report of the Salmon Management Task Force to the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy; No. 1, the Employment Equality Bill, 1996, Second Stage (Resumed); and No. 2, the Universities Bill, 1996, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding the Standing Orders, that No. 8 be decided without debate and that Private Members' Business shall be No. 34, a motion concerning the beef industry (resumed), and that shall conclude by 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that No. 8 be decided without debate agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that private Members' business conclude at 8.30 this evening? Agreed.

Mr. B. Ahern

Does the Taoiseach agree there is growing concern following yesterday's labour force survey? It shows the number of unemployed is not only static, despite low interest rates, low inflation, high economic growth and structural funds, but that the number of new jobs in the figures to April 1996 fell by 22 per cent compared to April 1995.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is hardly relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. B. Ahern

This is the first year the Taoiseach has been in charge of the economy and the figures have fallen by 22 per cent.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us have regard to what is in order.

The Taoiseach

I am glad there are almost 100,000 people more at work now than when I became Taoiseach.

Mr. B. Ahern

1,000 people.

Mr. Cowen

How many would be at work if the Taoiseach were not in office?

Miss Harney

Most of those people are programme managers or involved in task forces with this left-wing Government.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should be careful.

Miss Harney

I was delighted the Minister for Social Welfare told us last Sunday night that Fine Gael were not right of centre. When will we see legislation on decommissioning?

The Taoiseach

I have already said we will see that legislation soon but I cannot give a precise date. The Government has indicated it intends to work on that legislation.

Mr. B. Ahern

In the light of the Government's decision not to hold a referendum on Cabinet confidentiality, what are the Taoiseach's views on the undertakings in the programme for Government on reform of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, and on bringing in a new Bill on freedom of information. Where does this legislation stand or is it part of the growing list of matters that are too complex to be dealt with in the lifetime of this Government?

The Taoiseach

I said we would not have a referendum on Cabinet confidentiality this year. We are not ready to put any proposals to amend the Constitution on that matter. On the Ministers and Secretaries Act, the heads of that Bill were cleared recently and drafting is proceeding. We intend to introduce it within the foreseeable future. I expect the Freedom of Information Bill to be published before Christmas.

Mr. B. Ahern

Is the Taoiseach confident the referendum on Cabinet confidentiality and a Bill to amend the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, will both be dealt with in the lifetime of this Government?

The Taoiseach

It is my firm intention to have the Freedom of Information Bill and the Ministers and Secretaries Bill enacted before we seek a renewed term of office.

Mr. R. Burke

Before leaving office?

The Taoiseach

The mirth on the other side of the House was both uncertain and hesitant.

Mr. Cowen

Does the Taoiseach have a Master's degree in mirth?

The Taoiseach

Regarding Cabinet confidentiality, I have outlined extensively in the House that I am not certain it may be possible to draft wording that we can stand over. We will endeavour to do so but the difficulties, with regard to collective responsibility, have been set out in detail. This has operated in all Cabinets since 1921 and it may be under threat in any proposed change. The matter, therefore, has to be the subject of further consideration, and I am not setting a date on whether or when such a referendum will be introduced. On the other hand, no decision has been taken other than we are not in a position to introduce an amendment to the Constitution on that matter this year.

Mr. Cowen

It was not as simple as the Taoiseach thought.

Mr. B. Ahern

Given that the Taoiseach has considered this matter in detail and was so emphatic about doing it when he was on this side of the House, will he publish the documents and the options that have been looked at and perhaps lay them in the Library of the House so that we can see what the Government has rejected or is still considering?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should be careful in quoting what I said when in Opposition. As the record will show, I have always shown myself to be concerned about collective responsibility in Cabinet, in Opposition and in Government. Deputy O'Rourke was correct in reminding me of this recently.

Mrs. O'Rourke

You tried to block Gemma.

The Taoiseach

I am concerned about collective responsibility. I believe a Government works best as a team rather than as individual parties or Ministers seeking to promote their own interests. That is the reason this Government has worked well and is working better than its predecessors.

Mr. D. Ahern

Did the Taoiseach think of that when putting the programme for Government together?

Mr. Cowen

Given the Taoiseach's emphasis on and stated commitment to collective responsibility in Cabinet, could he confirm to the House that everybody in Cabinet agrees with the rantings of the Minister for Social Welfare on Sunday in relation to the farming community?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order now.

Mr. Molloy

When will we see the Electricity (Amendment) Bill providing for the establishment of a regulator of the electricity industry?

The Taoiseach

The middle of next year.

Mr. M. Ahern

Is the Taoiseach fully confident that the Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left Deputies from Cork, Tipperary and Monaghan will troop through the lobbies tonight, like sheep to the slaughter, and vote with the Government?

Mr. B. Ahern

I asked the Taoiseach on 4 July if he would move the Electoral (Amendment) Bill to Committee so that people with disabilities will be able to vote in the next referendum. What is the position with regard to this matter?

The Taoiseach

This refers to a Private Members' Bill promoted by the Deputy's party. The Deputy's party has not nominated it for Second Stage at Private Members' Business yet. This has to happen before the Third Stage can take place. It is important that the party which has promoted this Bill should recognise that requirement of procedure and ensure that it is taken at Second Stage. However, the Government has indicated that when that is done it will take a positive approach to the legislation. It requires substantial amendment. I understand from the Minister for the Environment that there will be approximately 50 amendments to this Bill to put it in a condition the Government could stand over as a basis for electoral law. I would be very pleased if the Opposition party would ensure that this Bill reaches Committee Stage by nominating it first for Second Stage. We will be happy to facilitate them in regard to Private Members' Business in that regard.

Mr. B. Ahern

This Bill was taken in Private Members' Business at Second Stage. It went to Committee and there was all-party agreement at Committee. Now it has come back to the House. We do not control Committee Stages of Bills in this House by all-party agreement. It is a matter for the Government. The question I asked is whether the Taoiseach will agree that this Bill can be taken in formal Committee Stage. Otherwise people with disabilities cannot vote. We do not need a lecture from the Taoiseach. The Bill was dealt with here, went to Committee, got all-party agreement and should be taken by the House in Committee.

The Taoiseach

My understanding is that, because of what has happened, the matter needs to be taken at Second Stage before Committee Stage can be proceeded with. I will be happy to facilitate that in any way I can to allow the matter to be moved forward. I will arrange for the Government Whip to discuss this matter with the Fianna Fáil Whip to see how we can facilitate moving the matter to Committee Stage. Extensive amendments are needed. This cannot necessarily be processed overnight or even very fast.

Mr. B. Ahern

I accept that.

Miss M. Wallace

Will the Taoiseach assure the House that this legislation will be in place in time for the referendum so that people with disabilities can cast their vote by post as promised by the Government in July?

The Taoiseach

That is not possible. We have provided extensive official briefings for the Deputy as to the reasons what she is seeking is not possible. She understands fully why it is not possible. Her question is disingenuous. I have indicated, nonetheless, that we will try to advance the matter further by agreeing for, perhaps, a formal taking of the Second Stage without absorbing a large amount of time so that the Bill can be processed further in Committee. It will not be ready in time for the referendum.

Miss M. Wallace

The Taoiseach and the Government gave me a commitment last June that this would be done. I tried to have the Bill put into Committee Stage during the summer and I was told that there was no problem with it, that the Government would agree to it and that it would be in place in time for the referendum. I am saying the same thing now as I said last June.

The Taoiseach

That is not correct. What I said last June was that I would see if it would be possible to have it ready for November. It is not possible at this stage to do it and this has been explained extensively to the Deputy through official briefing. She understands this fully.

Miss M. Wallace

The Government has been dragging its feet on this.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not enter into argument. She should resume her seat.

Miss M. Wallace

People with disabilities will have no vote in the referendum because the Government is dragging its feet.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Wallace is defying the Chair. She should resume her seat.

Mr. Cowen

Regarding the legislation on Cabinet confidentiality and the Taoiseach's stated commitment to collective responsibility, could he inform the House what the view of the Government is, given that this morning the Tánaiste said he is precluded from visiting export markets because it would place a question mark over the disease free status of our herds while the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry is saying we have the highest standards and is about to embark on a journey to Russia to try to retrieve the markets we have lost?

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be ample time for debate on that matter in this House. The debate resumes this evening.

Dr. Woods

The Minister for Equality and Law Reform has told us he hopes to have the Equal Status Bill published before Christmas. The Taoiseach said he would be making his best efforts to have it early in the New Year. What is the present position?

The Taoiseach

It is our hope to publish that Bill before Christmas.

Mr. O'Dea

I congratulate Fine Gael on working as a team in Government. I suppose it is easy when one gives way to the other parties all the time. Yesterday I raised the question of safety at indoor rock concerts and I received the Taoiseach's reply last night, for which I thank him. Does the Government intend to implement the recommendations of the Hamilton committee on safety at indoor rock concerts and, if so, when?

The Taoiseach

Proposals regarding outdoor events are being processed at present. The only regulations currently governing indoor events are the fire and safety requirements which apply to the safety of buildings and do not specifically apply to the holding of events where large crowds are in attendance. There is a lacuna in the legal position where indoor events are concerned and that is a matter of concern which requires attention.

Lessons must be learned from the recent tragic events in the Point Theatre upon which findings have recently been issued. We again extend our sympathy to the family concerned on the tragic and unexpected loss they suffered. We must do everything we can to avoid a recurrence of the event in this jurisdiction. There is a need for regulations in this area. In the meantime, however, there is a need for a voluntary code of practice which can be agreed between the relevant authorities and promoters to provide for safety at indoor events where large crowds congregate. I invite those concerned to agree a voluntary code of practice as a short-term measure pending the introduction of comprehensive and compulsory standards backed by the criminal law.

Mr. O'Dea

When?

The Taoiseach

I cannot and will not say when in advance of making the necessary arrangements. The priority is to agree a voluntary code of practice by which all promoters will abide. In the meantime we will work on legislation. I urge those who have influence in this matter, including the Deputy, to urge promoters of indoor events to agree a voluntary code of practice and to display clearly at the entrance to events the fact that they adhere to such a code with regard to crowd control, extensive security, numbers to be allowed into a given space and other factors that are necessary for the protection and safety of people at such events.

Mr. Callely

What progress has been made on the land registry Bill and on the adoptive contact registry Bill?

The Taoiseach

We anticipate that the land registry Bill will be introduced in the first half of next year. It is extensive legislation. The adoptive contact registry Bill is at an early stage of preparation and I expect it will be ready in the second half of next year.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we proceed to item 8?

Deputy M. Ahern rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

I called the Deputy earlier.

Mr. M. Ahern

I was interrupted. The Taoiseach spoke about voluntary codes of practice for indoor rock concerts. Does he not agree that existing statutory regulations should be policed properly? This tragic event happened to a neighbour and friend of my family but many other incidents occurred before and since then.

An Ceann Comhairle

That tragic matter should be raised at a more appropriate time.

Mr. M. Ahern

What are the Taoiseach and Government doing about it?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not the time. I am proceeding to item 8.