Mary Wallace
Question:18 Miss M. Wallace asked the Minister for Social Welfare the action, if any, he has taken in recent months to ensure that people with physical disabilities have a practical opportunity to use their free travel pass. [2406/97]
Other Questions. - Free Travel Scheme.
I share the Deputy's concern that people with disabilities should be in a position to avail fully of the free travel scheme. Nevertheless, the feedback from the review conducted by my Department of the transport operator services covered by the scheme indicates that there would be substantial difficulties involved in seeking to modify and adapt existing public transport vehicles to accommodate the needs of people with disabilities, particularly wheelchair users.
My Department's discussions on this matter with CIÉ — the main provider of transport under the free travel scheme — suggest that, rather than seeking to adapt existing buses, it might be more appropriate to purchase new vehicles specially designed for passengers with disabilities. Clearly, such a step would involve substantial costs.
The recently published report of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities makes a number of recommendations in the area of mobility and access to transport. It recommends, for instance, that every CIÉ, Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus depot should have at least one accessible bus by June 1997. It further recommends that the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications should subsidise the additional costs of such vehicles. I have asked my Department to consult the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications regarding the issue of accessible transport in the context of the free travel scheme and I will bring the Deputy's concerns in this area to the attention of my colleague, the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications.
My Department's free travel scheme is expected to cost a total of £32.6 million in 1997, of which private operators will receive a sum of £1.15 million.
I am not trying to be smart when I say that I hope the Minister has better luck with the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications than I had. When I asked questions on this matter, I was told that the Department was not responsible to the House or the taxpayer for the fact that all buses are inaccessible. I found that quite extraordinary.
I hope the CIÉ group and the Department of Social Welfare are not only now coming to the realisation that we are not talking about modifying and adapting the existing bus vehicles. Since I raised this issue 15 months ago — I started to raise this matter with the Minister in November 1995 — I have asked constantly why CIÉ does not buy an accessible bus the next time it is purchasing. Is it not crazy that CIÉ continues to buy inaccessible buses when there are wheelchair users, mothers with buggies, elderly people and the 470,000 to whom the Minister referred and the Department spends £32.6 million towards free travel passes? So many of these people cannot get on buses because they are inaccessible, yet the State, in the guise of the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications or the CIÉ group, continues to buy inaccessible buses.
The question is overlong, Deputy.
All of us, as taxpayers, continue to fund inaccessible buses through the free travel scheme operated by the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications and the CIÉ group. The CIÉ group now says it has thought of a great idea. It will not modernise and adapt — it will buy new accessible buses in future. There is nothing new about that idea. We have been saying that all along. We cannot understand why it continues to buy inaccessible buses.
I am not aware there was a question in what the Deputy said.
I think the Deputy asked if you agreed with her.
I am not the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. My understanding is that the issue of the design of vehicles is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment. The Deputy might have better luck if she addressed her question in relation to the actual design of public transport to the Department of the Environment. The Department of Transport, Energy and Communications obviously has responsibility for the operations of CIÉ, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann.
I would be as keen as the Deputy to ensure that public transport is accessible to people with disabilities. There are various ways of doing that, as the Deputy knows. The Vantastic operation tried the dial-a-ride approach, where a person with a disability could ring a particular service and have a bus come virtually to their doorstep and drop them off at their destination. Perhaps that is an option which the transport companies could examine, but my primary role as Minister for Social Welfare is to ensure that people with disabilities get a free transport provision. It is for other Departments to ensure that they oblige transport operators to make accessible vehicles available. As I indicated, I am getting in touch with the other Ministers involved in the area and I will be happy to keep the Deputy informed of any progress I make. Of course, the Deputy is free to make contact with the other Departments also.
I think it is the Minister's responsibility because in reply to a question with regard to time restrictions he said that they do not apply in the case of mentally handicapped people attending long-term rehabilitation courses and certain other disabled and blind people. Talking about time restrictions is one thing, but they do not matter when people with disabilities cannot access the vehicle.
The Minister referred in his reply to the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities and the recommendation that every depot should have an accessible bus by June 1997. Is he giving the House a commitment today that that will happen?
The Deputy knows that I cannot give such a commitment. I am not the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications or for the Environment; I am the Minister for Social Welfare. My primary role is to provide income maintenance to the categories of people who qualify for the schemes under my control. I have undertaken to talk to my colleagues about how we might make progress in that area.
On time restrictions, has the Minister any plans to remove the discrimination which currently exists for elderly people who qualify for a bus pass? People on the DART line can use the pass all day whereas those on a bus route are limited to certain times. The Department of Social Welfare pays CIÉ for that scheme. Will he negotiate changes and remove the discrimination?
I am not aware that any distinction is made between the DART line and bus routes and I will check that out, but I have raised the time restrictions on free travel with the bus and train operators and they made it absolutely clear that they are not prepared to change those restrictions no matter what the Department offers. Even if I had money to offer them, they are not prepared to change them because they simply would not have the capacity.
Try them.
I have.
With money?
On the collective responsibility of the Government, I find it very difficult to make any progress on behalf of people with disabilities. If the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications says he is not responsible for the fact that buses are inaccessible and the Minister for Social Welfare, who allocates the free travel passes to the people with disabilities, says he is not responsible if the pass cannot be used because the bus is inaccessible, the Minister and his colleagues should sit down and discuss this crazy position. His Department is giving free travel passes to people who cannot access buses and his Government colleague says it is not his responsibility that the buses are inaccessible. That is the position. Will the Minister raise this matter with his Government colleagues with a view to having implemented the recommendation of the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. Every depot should have a bus accessible to people with disabilities by June 1997. The Minister is providing £32 million for free travel passes to 470,000 people, many of whom cannot gain access to the buses, all of which are provided by the State. We are talking here about State funds and Government responsibility. We need a commitment from the Government that the recommendation will be in place by June 1997.
I have replied at length to the Deputy's question and have already indicated I am in the process of raising these matters with my colleagues in Government. When the Deputy raised these matters with me before, she asked me to speak with CIE and the other transport companies about what they might be able to do. I have done that and have reported to her on the outcome of those discussions with the transport operators. It is clear the transport operators are not in a position to provide the services being sought. On foot of that I will discuss the matter with my colleagues in Government. I have also indicated I will inform the Deputy when those discussions are making progress. What more can I do?
The Minister is saying he cannot make progress on this matter.
A brief question Deputy, please.
The Minister said he has met the CIE group who have raised various issues. We do not want all the city's buses adapted and everything modified at enormous expense. I am simply asking CIE when it is next buying a bus to buy one that is accessible. This would not involve a huge cost factor. It is crazy to think that in the past 15 months it has not bought buses accessible to people with disabilities.