Vol. 474 No. 6
18 Mr. Power asked the Minister for Defence his views on the matters raised by the president of the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers at their special delegate conference in Newbridge, County Kildare on 30 January 1997. [3597/97]
The president of RACO covered a large number of issues in his address to the special delegate conference and, accordingly, I have arranged for a copy of my address in reply to that conference to be furnished to the Deputy.
I am satisfied the conciliation and arbitration scheme and the representative process is working well. I have given an undertaking to the association that, should I find this is not the case, I will have the matter investigated and put to rights. I have also told the association there is a positive commitment on the part of the Department to reaching agreement on a long-term promotion system for officers of the PDF. Constructive discussions on this issue continue.
With regard to the special reviews of the Air Corps and Naval Service, while I am as disappointed as anyone else that the studies are not yet complete, I understand the reason for the delay is that the consultants have found it necessary to devote more time to some issues which have arisen than was originally intended. I have assured the association there will be consultation with them on the content and implications of these reports.
I am disappointed with the Minister's reply. He dealt with areas in which there is broad agreement and support for the action he has taken. The president of RACO, when addressing the special delegate conference in Newbridge, was extremely critical of the Minister and the Government because the restructuring process has become nothing short of a cost cutting exercise. The sacrifices in the restructuring process have all been borne by members of the Defence Forces. As a result, a smaller number of people are carrying out more tasks, while no long-term strategy has been outlined by the Government. Members of the Defence Forces do not have the hope they had before, and there is less desire to forge a career in the Defence Forces in families whose members previously had such a desire. The Minister should examine that problem and try to address it.
I reject the Deputy's allegation that the president of RACO criticised me. He did not. He expressed concern about the level of consultation between him or his organisation and the military authorities but he accepted that I have met RACO on nine occasions in the past twelve months. I have had ongoing consultations with both RACO and PDFORRA.
I also reject the suggestion that this process is a cost cutting exercise. It is the first time since the foundation of the State that anything has been done to restructure the Defence Forces. It is not about reducing numbers. Its objective is to make existing numbers more effective, efficient, younger and more capable of performing the tasks expected of them.
Both the EAG's and the consultants' reports clearly established the Defence Forces had an age profile problem, with a huge number of personnel in medical category C who were unable to perform normal duties. Our job is to run the Army, the Naval Service and the Air Corps and they have specific tasks to perform. We have, in a humane way, offered those forces voluntary early retirement at considerable expense to the taxpayer. After this year, the Government will have spent up to £45 million on the voluntary early retirement scheme. In addition, we have taken in 400 recruits in two months and we hope to take in another 200 within the next three months as part of the programme of older personnel leaving and young people joining.
The Army has a job to do and I do not want trained soldiers carrying out functions that can be carried out by civilians. I want trained soldiers to do the job for which they joined the Force and for which they are trained. Frustration arises when trained soldiers are asked to do menial tasks which can be done by others without the soldier's skills being wasted. When one endeavours to carry out major reform in any organisation the initial stages will be upsetting. That is only natural. People have been doing things in the same way for the past 50 or 60 years. It will take up to ten years for major changes to be established and to achieve the required result. We knew that from the outset.
I reject the suggestion that there is a morale problem in the Defence Forces. In the past two weeks I visited six barracks on the Border. I did not find low morale in the course of those visits, I found concerns. In many cases I could allay those concerns and, in some cases, I undertook to examine them. I will continue to do that.
Please do not suggest this scheme is a cost cutting exercise. We have given a commitment that at least 50 per cent of the savings that will arise at the end of the voluntary early retirement scheme will be invested in new equipment. I hope we can secure an agreement from the Department of Finance that, when it has recovered the moneys spent on the scheme on behalf of the taxpayer, we will receive 100 per cent of the savings. However, there will be no savings in the Defence Forces following implementation of the plan until 1999. This year we will spend £30 million on the VER. Last year, £13 million was spent on it while next year at least £30 million will be spent. We are not talking about savings yet. However, savings will begin to come on stream in 1999. The Defence Forces want us to give a guarantee that those savings will be invested in equipment, refurbishment and so forth. That commitment has been given and will be given in the future.
If the Deputy wants me to deal with every item raised by the president of RACO, I will be here until 5 p.m. However, I will forward my reply to the Deputy so he can see my response to the various points made by the president. If the Deputy is not satisfied, I will be pleased to return to the House next month and answer any questions he might have about that reply.
To listen to the Minister, one would think everything in the Defence Forces was rosy. With regard to the Minister's meetings with the representative organisations, I agree the system is working well but that is not thanks to the Minister. He was most reluctant to get involved and it was only when one of the organisations criticised him that he took notice and realised the organisations had a function in this process.
The voluntary early retirement scheme will begin to yield savings in 1999. However, the Minister only recently gave a commitment to have 50 per cent of the savings reinvested in infrastructure, new equipment and buildings.
A question for the Minister.
The Price Waterhouse report on the Defence Forces was very critical. It said too many members of the Forces were tied up with housekeeping duties and there were too many barracks. The Minister has not grasped that nettle.
Is the Deputy advocating barracks closures?
The Minister has put it on the long finger and members of the Defence Forces are not fooled. They realise this situation cannot continue. It is a pity the Minister has not been more honest with them and let them know where their futures lie.
I am glad to hear Deputy Power expand on Fianna Fáil policy regarding army barracks. He obviously is promoting barracks closures. If that is so, I ask him——
The Minister is afraid to make the necessary decisions.
——to ask his colleagues not to travel around the country making allegations that this Government will close barracks. I have already stated that it is not our policy. If it is Fianna Fáil policy——
It was the previous Minister's policy.
——so be it. I ask the Deputy to expand on Fianna Fáil policy and name the barracks that will be closed.
The former Minister, Deputy Coveney, said it was Government policy.
The Minister without interruption.
The Deputy should be honest and name what barracks he would close. We have stated our policy that we will not close barracks and I make no apology for that. A barracks is as good if not better than a large factory in a town. We have taken into account the fact that large numbers of soldiers live in local authority housing and their children are in schools. I have no intention of closing barracks in accordance with Fianna Fáil policy.
(Wexford): Neither have we.
The Fianna Fáil spokesman said that he is in favour of barracks closures.
I said no such thing.
I am asking him to name the barracks.
I am being accused of saying things I never said.
He told me I do not have the courage, but he is on the hook and is trying to get off it. We will see what the Official Report states about this matter.
The Minister is being mischievous. The statement he made is that no barracks will be closed in the first phase.
I said I will close no barracks. Lest there be any doubt about it, I am stating clearly that I will close no barracks, in the first or second phase. We should be clear about that. I am glad Fianna Fáil has at long last stated clearly its policy, which is barracks closures. I would like to know what barracks it will close. I intend closing no barracks, for the reasons I have outlined. For the information of the Deputy who is prone to misquote me from time to time——
The Minister is a dab hand at it himself.
——and make allegations and innuendoes which are totally untrue, in accordance with Government policy announced following the Government meeting of 5 March 1996, which approved the implementation plan, it was clearly stated that any savings would be shared between the Exchequer and the Defence Forces.
In view of the fact that the security forces, including the Army which plays an enormously important role in this regard, are the guarantee for democracy, will the Minister agree it is essential that morale in the Defence Forces be maintained at the highest possible level? I raise this point because I am alarmed at the Minister's response to an earlier question from my colleague in which he said that from his visits around the country he has no reason to conclude that morale in the Army is low. If he is of that opinion he is out of touch and is listening to the wrong people, or maybe he is being told what he wants to hear.
They are afraid to tell him the truth.
The level of morale in the Defence Forces is alarming. The Minister has the full support of all Members in whatever steps he takes to ensure that morale is restored to the highest level in the Defence Forces and the Garda Síochána, the two arms of security. He should ensure that his colleagues in Government give him full backing in that regard. There is an erosion of morale, which is critical to the well-being of our democratic system. I accept the Defence Forces are undergoing a major review and the doubts and fears that arise may be exaggerated in some cases, but morale is low.
I remind the House that in accordance with Standing Order 37 I must proceed to questions to the Minister in his capacity as Minister for the Marine at 4 p.m., in five minutes' time. I had hoped to proceed to other Defence questions before then.
I do not accept what the Deputy said. The Opposition will always endeavour to play up matters and make statements to the effect that morale is low.
That is not fair.
I visited various parts of the country and do not depend solely on information from officers; I see things for myself. There are times when morale is very low here. Sometimes when I get up in the morning I feel very low while other times I feel good. The recruitment of young, active people to the Defence Forces is a boost to morale. If successive Governments, including my own, had paid more attention rather than allowing a position to arise where all one had to do was read the Price Waterhouse report to learn of the level of morale, they would understand the need for the changes now proposed. In the course of those changes the levels of morale will vary, but I do not accept that overall on a daily basis in every barracks morale is at a very low level.
The Minister is out of touch.
One need only watch members of the Defence Forces doing their job to see how good morale is. I am very proud that, whether on Border duty, cash escorts or serving overseas, the Defence Forces are recognised as doing an exceptionally good job and there is no indication from the manner in which they do their job that morale is at an all time low.
Having heard the Minister say that he has no intention of closing barracks, how does he intend to ensure that Fitzgerald camp in Fermoy will continue in operation, given that a number of personnel there have taken early retirement? It appears that camp is being closed by stealth. Will the Minister ensure that a sufficient number of new recruits are posted to Fitzgerald camp to secure its future?
The Deputy is getting into a specific area.
The Minister referred to his recent visit to the Border area, on which I am sure he learned of the concern of the local people about the under-strength of the 29th battalion and in the number of personnel assigned to Dún Uí Néill in Cavan and Monaghan Army barracks. Will the Minister give an assurance that the necessary personnel will be assigned to the 29th battalion in view of the severe and additional workload imposed on that and other battalions in the Border region because of the BSE security operation of the past 12 months?
I confirm that Fermoy barracks will not close. I was shocked to hear from the Fianna Fáil spokesman that his party has adopted a policy of barracks closures.
The Minister should stop being childish.
The Deputy should ask the Fianna Fáil spokesman if Fermoy barracks is on his list. It is not on my list.
(Wexford): We have no list.
As long as Fermoy barracks is there it will get its fair share of recruits.
We will watch that closely.
Having visited the Border area, I agree with Deputy Smith that the personnel there do an excellent job under difficult conditions. Whatever personnel are needed to ensure the security of the State and a resolution of the BSE problem will be made available to the Border units.
